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#1 4Warner

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 12:03 PM

Hey People!! New to the Laker Nation Forum...but felt compelled to chime in on the apparent misusage of Josh Hart. Is anyone else feeling this way?

 

 

Maybe his ankle is more injured than we know and they're trying to give him a chance to heal up before they turn him loose, but it sure doesn't look like he's getting the burn he deserves out there, considering how effective he is in relatively small samples.

 

Advanced stats say that two of the Lakers top three lineups involve J Hart in the mix. This isn't a real well written article but he refers to the lineups in here... https://www.sbnation...mes-stats-score

 

Advanced numbers also say that the team functions best at +12.7 when Tyson Chandler is on the court and Josh Hart secondly at +11.2 for every 100 possessions he's on the court. I've followed LeBrons career very closely since before day one, and though he's been highly effective this season, the team has just a +4 point advantage in on/off court rating when he's played. We know Brons been good. We can feel the difference that Chandlers made defensively and with his leadership. But how come people, particularly Luke Walton, isn't feeling what Josh Hart brings to the game when the numbers speak so clearly to it?

 

Another individual rating called Offensive rating says that Hart has been the 3rd most effective Laker on that end of the court, and his Defensive rating places him as LA's 4th best defender of the players who've played over 500 minutes on the season.

 

Win Shares is a stat that tries to quantify how much a guy effects a teams chances of winning ballgames. He's #3 on the Lakers in that metric trailing only James and the surprisingly effective McGee per 48.

 

And anyone who's ever watched LeBron James play basketball, knows that it's smart to place shooters around the 3 point arch to stretch the floor next to him. No player on the Lakers current roster comes close to matching Hart in this category. Nearly 64% of Josh Harts attempted field goals come from beyond the arc! KCP matches the modern prototypical 3 and D guy and he ony uses 57% of his attempts for the 3 ball... So Hart is a committed long distance shooter. He gets 9 three balls up every 100 possessions and he's far from the first oprtion...He's also the most accurate shooter they have. At just under 40% from deep he leads everyone but Rajon Rondo who sits at 43%, though he's never had a whole season that exceeded 38%, while Hart was at .396 as a Rookie and at .396 at the time of this post... So Harts LA's best option from deep without question...

 

Here are the current stats from the best basketball website on the planet...https://www.basketba...s/LAL/2019.html

 

Like I mentioned, maybe the mans ankle's a little tender still, or perhaps the Lakers have instructed Walton to keep Ingram and Ball on court as much as possible to shop them to perspective teams which has kept the deserving Hart from seeing the floor much. But if I were him, I'd be scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm not playing more. Maybe the 4th quarter comeback versus San Antonio and the great Coach Popovich will wake Luke up a little bit but something ain't right!

 

Anybody else feel like this man Josh Hart should see more court time?


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#2 lakerfan98

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 12:12 PM

Well he's getting healthy, Ingram has a bum ankle, and Rondo is still out so I believe you're about to get your wish.

Just about the only thing I don't like about Josh is he spends a good part of the game jawing at the refs and imo it's starting to have a negative impact on the way he's officiated. Needs to tone that down.
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#3 LakeShow1o1

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 12:39 PM

Well he's getting healthy, Ingram has a bum ankle, and Rondo is still out so I believe you're about to get your wish.

Just about the only thing I don't like about Josh is he spends a good part of the game jawing at the refs and imo it's starting to have a negative impact on the way he's officiated. Needs to tone that down.

 

Those calls yesterday were pretty absurd though haha


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#4 lakerfan98

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 01:01 PM

Those calls yesterday were pretty absurd though haha


Agreed but the dude could do a lot to help himself out. Got ejected from a summer league game ffs haha

#5 4Warner

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 01:13 PM

Those calls yesterday were pretty absurd though haha

 

NBA officiating leaves a lot to be desired, but IMO the games have long been manipulated for entertainment purposes. When a player plays on James teams since he joined the Miami Heat they notice the bias of officiating isn't just going against James, but it also affects the entire team. It can be flabbergasting for players but it's something they have to get used to. It comes with the territory. James teams in the past have addressed the bias and learned to deal with it the best they can. There are also times when being a teammate of his can earn a team or guy something they may not have deserved in full. So it can go both ways even if it leans agaisnt them more often than not.

 

Maybe Josh needs to chill out a little bit, but that passion he plays with, where's he's just on the edge of being out of control on drives to the rim and breaking into the passing lanes or bodying up in the post defnesively is fueld by his personality. I love it. On the other hand we get to watch a guy like Ingram walk around moping with his head down on every bad play...Ball's played well and Ingram not horribble, but PER says he's outplaying both of them and PER is biased to scoring... Hart does what the team needs. No more...no less. Just effective. Ingram knows he dribbles too much when it should be 1 to 3 dribbles and stretching to the bucket, and when it's not that, he's settling for midrange pull ups over smaller guys. Luke would be smart to bring Brandon in as the main scoring option off the bench and promote and increase Harts minute per night workload to around 27 or 28... The team would likely take off on offense again like they did at the start of the season...



#6 kray28

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 01:48 PM

The no touch phantom foul was an absolute thing of beauty.


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#7 last stand 2.0

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 01:51 PM

Hart isn’t good enough to talk to the refs as much as he does

Granted he’s one of the worst officiated players we’ve had in recent memory. Guys like kobe and lebron I get when they’re fouled they complain and I also get the refs not calling it all the time

Sure in the heat of the game it’s frustrating but if you really think about it with how much those guys attack if the refs really called it strictly they’d be at the free throw line 15-20 times a game. Nobody wants that

It’s like with Dwayne wade. He drove in so much he could’ve shot free throws 15-20 a game easily

Nba doesn’t want that

With hart though I can honestly say he gets fouled on most drives. He should be at the line 3-4 times a game.
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#8 noknife

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 01:53 PM

The no touch phantom foul was an absolute thing of beauty.

 

I think the player shooting might have slapped his hand on the follow through well after the ball left his hand, in any case, it was a totally bogus call.  It truly looked like the refs were out to get Hart, but whatever, he played through it and was an effective player in the win, sometimes stuff like that happens.



#9 4Warner

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 02:39 PM

Hart isn’t good enough to talk to the refs as much as he does
 

 

Ironically, players believe that if you don't talk to the refs and get on them that they won't give you calls...

 

I agree hes not an upper echelon dude, but the ref is supposed to be there to do a job, call the action. Not the personality or personna. That's what bothers me in the NBA game. There's a movement to eliminate free throw attempts for time and entertainment sake but it skews the action and outcomes. The NBA realizes this and at times clearly uses the line to manipulate contests.

 

As a basketball purist of sorts, you'd like to see the game called with integrity and professionalism. Mistakes are made because they're human but eggregious errors that are inexplicable have to raise eyebrows. Luckily for the NBA, the veiwing public doesn't see the manipulation. But it certainly has an effect on players.

 

I didn't watch Hart much unitl Summer League but did he complain to the officials a lot last year? If he did. maybe he's just a guy who plays with his emotion on his sleeve...And if he didn't, perhaps he's just getting used to how he'll be officiated playing on a LeBron James led team...



#10 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 03:45 PM

Simple I said it during Summer league start Hart!
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#11 Persian Gulf

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 04:38 PM

Well he's getting healthy, Ingram has a bum ankle, and Rondo is still out so I believe you're about to get your wish.

Just about the only thing I don't like about Josh is he spends a good part of the game jawing at the refs and imo it's starting to have a negative impact on the way he's officiated. Needs to tone that down.

i like it when he flexes his muscle when ever he drives in and score! lol but yes, he needs to tone it down



#12 DanishLakerFan

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Posted December 06, 2018 - 08:59 PM

Hey People!! New to the Laker Nation Forum...but felt compelled to chime in on the apparent misusage of Josh Hart. Is anyone else feeling this way?

 

 

Maybe his ankle is more injured than we know and they're trying to give him a chance to heal up before they turn him loose, but it sure doesn't look like he's getting the burn he deserves out there, considering how effective he is in relatively small samples.

 

Advanced stats say that two of the Lakers top three lineups involve J Hart in the mix. This isn't a real well written article but he refers to the lineups in here... https://www.sbnation...mes-stats-score

 

Advanced numbers also say that the team functions best at +12.7 when Tyson Chandler is on the court and Josh Hart secondly at +11.2 for every 100 possessions he's on the court. I've followed LeBrons career very closely since before day one, and though he's been highly effective this season, the team has just a +4 point advantage in on/off court rating when he's played. We know Brons been good. We can feel the difference that Chandlers made defensively and with his leadership. But how come people, particularly Luke Walton, isn't feeling what Josh Hart brings to the game when the numbers speak so clearly to it?

 

Another individual rating called Offensive rating says that Hart has been the 3rd most effective Laker on that end of the court, and his Defensive rating places him as LA's 4th best defender of the players who've played over 500 minutes on the season.

 

Win Shares is a stat that tries to quantify how much a guy effects a teams chances of winning ballgames. He's #3 on the Lakers in that metric trailing only James and the surprisingly effective McGee per 48.

 

And anyone who's ever watched LeBron James play basketball, knows that it's smart to place shooters around the 3 point arch to stretch the floor next to him. No player on the Lakers current roster comes close to matching Hart in this category. Nearly 64% of Josh Harts attempted field goals come from beyond the arc! KCP matches the modern prototypical 3 and D guy and he ony uses 57% of his attempts for the 3 ball... So Hart is a committed long distance shooter. He gets 9 three balls up every 100 possessions and he's far from the first oprtion...He's also the most accurate shooter they have. At just under 40% from deep he leads everyone but Rajon Rondo who sits at 43%, though he's never had a whole season that exceeded 38%, while Hart was at .396 as a Rookie and at .396 at the time of this post... So Harts LA's best option from deep without question...

 

Here are the current stats from the best basketball website on the planet...https://www.basketba...s/LAL/2019.html

 

Like I mentioned, maybe the mans ankle's a little tender still, or perhaps the Lakers have instructed Walton to keep Ingram and Ball on court as much as possible to shop them to perspective teams which has kept the deserving Hart from seeing the floor much. But if I were him, I'd be scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm not playing more. Maybe the 4th quarter comeback versus San Antonio and the great Coach Popovich will wake Luke up a little bit but something ain't right!

 

Anybody else feel like this man Josh Hart should see more court time?

 

Sure. Hart needs more minutes and i suspect he'll start these next couple of games with Ingram out.



#13 Draztik

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Posted December 07, 2018 - 03:58 AM

I'm thinking that ankle injury was bothering him. He was in a shooting slump too for a minute there. But he'll get healthy and Luke has shown he gives him minutes.

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#14 LACAS

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Posted December 07, 2018 - 05:08 AM

Maybe some time away will do BI well... time to reflect


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#15 GCMD

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Posted December 08, 2018 - 11:28 PM

Hey People!! New to the Laker Nation Forum...but felt compelled to chime in on the apparent misusage of Josh Hart. Is anyone else feeling this way?

 

 

Maybe his ankle is more injured than we know and they're trying to give him a chance to heal up before they turn him loose, but it sure doesn't look like he's getting the burn he deserves out there, considering how effective he is in relatively small samples.

 

Advanced stats say that two of the Lakers top three lineups involve J Hart in the mix. This isn't a real well written article but he refers to the lineups in here... https://www.sbnation...mes-stats-score

 

Advanced numbers also say that the team functions best at +12.7 when Tyson Chandler is on the court and Josh Hart secondly at +11.2 for every 100 possessions he's on the court. I've followed LeBrons career very closely since before day one, and though he's been highly effective this season, the team has just a +4 point advantage in on/off court rating when he's played. We know Brons been good. We can feel the difference that Chandlers made defensively and with his leadership. But how come people, particularly Luke Walton, isn't feeling what Josh Hart brings to the game when the numbers speak so clearly to it?

 

Another individual rating called Offensive rating says that Hart has been the 3rd most effective Laker on that end of the court, and his Defensive rating places him as LA's 4th best defender of the players who've played over 500 minutes on the season.

 

Win Shares is a stat that tries to quantify how much a guy effects a teams chances of winning ballgames. He's #3 on the Lakers in that metric trailing only James and the surprisingly effective McGee per 48.

 

And anyone who's ever watched LeBron James play basketball, knows that it's smart to place shooters around the 3 point arch to stretch the floor next to him. No player on the Lakers current roster comes close to matching Hart in this category. Nearly 64% of Josh Harts attempted field goals come from beyond the arc! KCP matches the modern prototypical 3 and D guy and he ony uses 57% of his attempts for the 3 ball... So Hart is a committed long distance shooter. He gets 9 three balls up every 100 possessions and he's far from the first oprtion...He's also the most accurate shooter they have. At just under 40% from deep he leads everyone but Rajon Rondo who sits at 43%, though he's never had a whole season that exceeded 38%, while Hart was at .396 as a Rookie and at .396 at the time of this post... So Harts LA's best option from deep without question...

 

Here are the current stats from the best basketball website on the planet...https://www.basketba...s/LAL/2019.html

 

Like I mentioned, maybe the mans ankle's a little tender still, or perhaps the Lakers have instructed Walton to keep Ingram and Ball on court as much as possible to shop them to perspective teams which has kept the deserving Hart from seeing the floor much. But if I were him, I'd be scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm not playing more. Maybe the 4th quarter comeback versus San Antonio and the great Coach Popovich will wake Luke up a little bit but something ain't right!

 

Anybody else feel like this man Josh Hart should see more court time?

 

Hart is a perfect 6th man type player.  I could see him starting one day but it would depend on the rest of the starters, not him beating out a legit star.

 

Right now?  Hart makes more sense in the starting lineup than Ingram.  Ingram is more talented and has a much higher ceiling but as I've said in other threads, Ingram's fit next to LeBron is much less than ideal.  Hart is a high basketball IQ glue type player who does all of the little things you need players to do next to LeBron.  Hart is and does all of the things that would make Ingram (if he add them) the perfect #2.


Edited by GCMD, December 08, 2018 - 11:28 PM.


#16 4Warner

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 08:24 AM

Hart is a perfect 6th man type player.  I could see him starting one day but it would depend on the rest of the starters, not him beating out a legit star.

 

Right now?  Hart makes more sense in the starting lineup than Ingram.  Ingram is more talented and has a much higher ceiling but as I've said in other threads, Ingram's fit next to LeBron is much less than ideal.  Hart is a high basketball IQ glue type player who does all of the little things you need players to do next to LeBron.  Hart is and does all of the things that would make Ingram (if he add them) the perfect #2.

 

As a starter, Hart averages around 14 and 6 rebounds, coming off the bench, he's averaged around 6 points and 3 boards...

 

For some reason, he seems to feel more comfortabe starting the contest.

 

 

BI is the bigger asset no question, but, like you mention, the fit is poor. This is where Hart is natural. He's a more natural pairing with James as he doesn't require as much usage and he's a great floor spacer. 

 

Ingram makes me pull my hair out watching him. Of every player on the roster he's the most disapponting to me. Such a huge upside with the length and basketball background he has with Duke and his hometown of NC being such an NBA hotbed. But his body language is horrible and his game style either needs to alter or he will be moved sooner or later. I tend to believe they're shopping him as much as possible because they understand it's not gonna happen in LA over the next 3 years... But if you watch him closely, instead of taking 1 to 3 dribbles and stretching past hs defender like he should be, he likes to take 4 to 7 dribbles to get his shot off and often times he'll settle for a little mid-ranger over a shorter defender. He needs to get a 2 dribble long step move down, and become more comfortable with the catch and shoot actions. Kuzma seems to have been able to figure these aspects out and is flourishing.

 

 

I'm not saying Hart needs to necessarily play over BI either, but all the advanced stats say he's highly effective when he's on the court. I just feel like he's vital to what they're trying to accomplish and Luke would be wise to utilize him more... Over the past two games he has with mixed results, mostly because Ingram is down, but hopefully Hart can get comfortable and prove his worth over this stretch. I have confidence that he will...


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#17 GCMD

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 12:38 PM

As a starter, Hart averages around 14 and 6 rebounds, coming off the bench, he's averaged around 6 points and 3 boards...

 

For some reason, he seems to feel more comfortabe starting the contest.

 

 

BI is the bigger asset no question, but, like you mention, the fit is poor. This is where Hart is natural. He's a more natural pairing with James as he doesn't require as much usage and he's a great floor spacer. 

 

Ingram makes me pull my hair out watching him. Of every player on the roster he's the most disapponting to me. Such a huge upside with the length and basketball background he has with Duke and his hometown of NC being such an NBA hotbed. But his body language is horrible and his game style either needs to alter or he will be moved sooner or later. I tend to believe they're shopping him as much as possible because they understand it's not gonna happen in LA over the next 3 years... But if you watch him closely, instead of taking 1 to 3 dribbles and stretching past hs defender like he should be, he likes to take 4 to 7 dribbles to get his shot off and often times he'll settle for a little mid-ranger over a shorter defender. He needs to get a 2 dribble long step move down, and become more comfortable with the catch and shoot actions. Kuzma seems to have been able to figure these aspects out and is flourishing.

 

 

I'm not saying Hart needs to necessarily play over BI either, but all the advanced stats say he's highly effective when he's on the court. I just feel like he's vital to what they're trying to accomplish and Luke would be wise to utilize him more... Over the past two games he has with mixed results, mostly because Ingram is down, but hopefully Hart can get comfortable and prove his worth over this stretch. I have confidence that he will...

 

 

I agree with your general assessment but I think Ingram's biggest issues are he doesn't know how to play off LeBron the way Hart does.  He's trying to prove he can take over for LeBron and that's just not true at this point.  Being more aggressive in the way he goes about it calls attention to that point.

 

For the time being, Ingram should concentrate on moving without the ball and hitting his outside shot next to LeBron, like Hart does.  Once we take the lead, he'd have ample opportunity to work on his ability to to act as the #1 when LeBron sits.

 

And yes, Advance Stats have proven everything thing you've asserted about Hart and Advanced Stats have shown LeBron/Ingram just doesn't work.

 

 

Now for the bad news:

 

Bringing Ingram off the bench would absolutely TORPEDO his trade value.  I'd love to see Hart more but until we can find a way to move Ingram, it would hurt the value of our assets more to start Hart and I don't know if we'd win enough additional games to justify it.

 

So while Hart needs to play more, that won't happen any time soon.  Even with Ingram out, our 2/3 rotation is fairly deep.  Lance, KCP and even Svi all contribute and deserve some minutes and share them with Hart.


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#18 4Warner

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 03:43 PM

I agree with your general assessment but I think Ingram's biggest issues are he doesn't know how to play off LeBron the way Hart does.  He's trying to prove he can take over for LeBron and that's just not true at this point.  Being more aggressive in the way he goes about it calls attention to that point.

 

For the time being, Ingram should concentrate on moving without the ball and hitting his outside shot next to LeBron, like Hart does.  Once we take the lead, he'd have ample opportunity to work on his ability to to act as the #1 when LeBron sits.

 

And yes, Advance Stats have proven everything thing you've asserted about Hart and Advanced Stats have shown LeBron/Ingram just doesn't work.

 

 

Now for the bad news:

 

Bringing Ingram off the bench would absolutely TORPEDO his trade value.  I'd love to see Hart more but until we can find a way to move Ingram, it would hurt the value of our assets more to start Hart and I don't know if we'd win enough additional games to justify it.

 

So while Hart needs to play more, that won't happen any time soon.  Even with Ingram out, our 2/3 rotation is fairly deep.  Lance, KCP and even Svi all contribute and deserve some minutes and share them with Hart.

 

You're hitting it all on the head... BI's trade vaue would likely torpedo,no question. The reason they've probably not experimented with the look yet...One way it doesn't  decrease his value is if they're able to implement him successfully off the bench. For instance, if he's able to play better or have better per 36 minute numbers it shows perspective teams that perhaps, like you say, he just doesn't fit well with LeBron, but may fit in their system or as their lead guy. It is early in his career and he showed flashes after the ASG last year so maybe there are GMs out there still with a high level of interest...

 

I agree that we see Ingram assert himself in odd ways too. A little overly confident in approach when James is on court, and especially when he's not. In a perfect world he'd be able to come in and give 15 or 16 as the leader of the 2nd unit with this team, the main scorer and primary or secondary ball handler, and a guy who embraced the role. But it's not likely to happen...

 

As for Hart not playing more, I could see that, but I do think he has an opportunity here to move more strongly into Luke's consciousness, if you will. Kinda how Lonzo did when Rondo went down to the suspension early on...At least I hope so. I really like what he brings to the table...


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#19 GCMD

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 03:53 PM

Hart was one of the most NBA ready players in his draft, right up there with Mitchell and Tatum.  Solid on both ends of the court, ultimate role player and able to contribute no matter who he's on the court with.  He's a keeper.

 

I see Hart getting more and more minutes after next offseason.  I think we will have a more complete team with less holes allowing for a more consistent rotation.

 

Good thread and I think we all agree.  More Hart is good for the Lakers.


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