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How would've D'Angelo Russell and Julius Randle Fit with the Current Lakers


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#41 GCMD

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Posted December 08, 2018 - 10:59 PM

Bro you say this as if Randle was a great screen setter to begin with, which he wasn't and was up and down in effort in that area.  Randle wants to be a core piece not a guy that's setting good screens and rolling to the rim. 

 

Randle views himself as a dynamic player.  There is no place in LA for him to be that.  NOP he has a role that suits him AND the team.  

 

All of this is what I pointed out years ago.  Randle set weak screens, wants to be THE guy and didn't try hard.  You were with all of the people who bashed me for that take.

 

Now, I'm not arguing against your claims.  I'm debating how a LeBron/Randle pairing COULD have worked out...not based on what I want Randle to do but based on what Randle did last season...I believe that Randle would buy in better next to LeBron:

 

 

If you look at that one season and compare it to his UK year, you see the same player.  He's capable of doing more by sticking to what he's best at.  Next to a player like LeBron?  All of that would be infinitely easier.


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#42 GCMD

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Posted December 08, 2018 - 11:16 PM

OT -

 

How is Anthony Davis such a highly rated player when NOP is so mediocre?  I have never been a fan of players like DMC and Anthony Davis who seem like All-World 1-on-1 but seem to never make a team a contender based on their presence alone.

 

KD

Kawhi

LeBron

Steph...all these guys are franchise changers.  People claim Anthony Davis is too...I disagree...unless you pair him with another top 10 level talent, his teams always seem 2nd tier at best.



#43 erfolk

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 02:24 AM

OT -

How is Anthony Davis such a highly rated player when NOP is so mediocre? I have never been a fan of players like DMC and Anthony Davis who seem like All-World 1-on-1 but seem to never make a team a contender based on their presence alone.

KD
Kawhi
LeBron
Steph...all these guys are franchise changers. People claim Anthony Davis is too...I disagree...unless you pair him with another top 10 level talent, his teams always seem 2nd tier at best.

Anthony Davis isnt the reason there mediocre. What more do you expect him to do? The teams he has been on haven't been very good. He is a top 5 player and definately a game changer. I couldnt disagree with you more.

#44 fido

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 07:08 PM

Some may roast me for this, but I couldn't care less.

 

For me, Davis is a good equivalent of Pau Gasol.  Great player that simply isn't suited to lead a team to the chip.  He (for one reason or another) doesn't have what it takes to be the number one guy on a team.  Pair him alongside of LeBron (as I'm pretty sure he'll slide right into that secondary position without any dispute) and everyone thrives.


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#45 GCMD

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 08:15 PM

Anthony Davis isnt the reason there mediocre. What more do you expect him to do? The teams he has been on haven't been very good. He is a top 5 player and definately a game changer. I couldnt disagree with you more.

 

By definition, game changer changes the game for his team.  NOP is never an undisputed Championship Contention Team, even with AD fully healthy.

 

Some players just don't move the needle as far as W/Ls even though they are great.  Davis seems like that type of player.  NOP has brought in a lot of different types of player to complement AD...hasn't worked yet.

 

For reference:

 

Dwight Howard, at his best, had a team full of shooters around him and he got to the NBA Finals.  Perennial DPOY candidate and a Über dominant rebounder and rim protector.  He had a noticeable effect on his team's W/Ls.  

 

I haven't seen AD elevate NOP to that level yet...and he's clearly in his prime.

 

Some may roast me for this, but I couldn't care less.

 

For me, Davis is a good equivalent of Pau Gasol.  Great player that simply isn't suited to lead a team to the chip.  He (for one reason or another) doesn't have what it takes to be the number one guy on a team.  Pair him alongside of LeBron (as I'm pretty sure he'll slide right into that secondary position without any dispute) and everyone thrives.

 

While Pau may not be the same type of player AD is, I agree.  Loads of talent but not someone you want to build your franchise around.  AD needs to be next to a guy like LeBron or Harden or Steph.



#46 last stand 2.0

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Posted December 09, 2018 - 09:16 PM

OT -

How is Anthony Davis such a highly rated player when NOP is so mediocre? I have never been a fan of players like DMC and Anthony Davis who seem like All-World 1-on-1 but seem to never make a team a contender based on their presence alone.

KD
Kawhi
LeBron
Steph...all these guys are franchise changers. People claim Anthony Davis is too...I disagree...unless you pair him with another top 10 level talent, his teams always seem 2nd tier at best.



You could argue about khawi, one of the greatest coaches ever said he wasn’t a leader, and he won titles on a team that he was not the leader. Top 3-5 player sure but I don’t see him as any different than Davis

KD sure, Steph sure,
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#47 GCMD

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 12:20 AM

You could argue about khawi, one of the greatest coaches ever said he wasn’t a leader, and he won titles on a team that he was not the leader. Top 3-5 player sure but I don’t see him as any different than Davis

KD sure, Steph sure,

 

I take it you haven't watched any TOR Raptor games this year, right?  Kawhi looks like a legit MVP candidate.  TOR has the best record in the NBA (21-7).  Spurs with Derozan aren't even a playoff team (13-14 and 12th in the West).

 

Kawhi is NOTHING like AD.  Any team that has Kawhi is a contender.  Can't say the same for AD.



#48 erfolk

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 12:36 AM

By definition, game changer changes the game for his team. NOP is never an undisputed Championship Contention Team, even with AD fully healthy.

Some players just don't move the needle as far as W/Ls even though they are great. Davis seems like that type of player. NOP has brought in a lot of different types of player to complement AD...hasn't worked yet.

For reference:

Dwight Howard, at his best, had a team full of shooters around him and he got to the NBA Finals. Perennial DPOY candidate and a Über dominant rebounder and rim protector. He had a noticeable effect on his team's W/Ls.

I haven't seen AD elevate NOP to that level yet...and he's clearly in his prime.


While Pau may not be the same type of player AD is, I agree. Loads of talent but not someone you want to build your franchise around. AD needs to be next to a guy like LeBron or Harden or Steph.

Just because they are not contenders doesnt mean he isnt a game changer. Championships are won by teams not one great player. Where would they be without him?

Edited by erfolk, December 10, 2018 - 11:32 AM.


#49 Jody Smokes

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 07:57 AM

That's way more circumstantial than you are letting on.  Toronto was already a really good team and they finessed the Spurs for not just Kawhi who is basically the same stylistically as Derozan but much better in all respects but playmaking and added Danny Green.  

 

So there wasn't a real learning curve for adding in Kawhi and Danny is a good 3 and D player.  The new coach is also using Ibaka like he shouldve been used 2-3 years ago.  The team also has a LOT of good role playing 2 way depth that casuals don't really know about.  

 

Players like Siakem, Van Fleet, Deron Wright are really good starter to bench players that fill holes on both ends.  The team doesn't really have any weaknesses outside of they just dont have Steph, KD or Lebron on the team lol. 

 

The Pelicans biggest issue is that they do not have a dynamic wing.  Idc how good your big man is you cannot win in the NBA without an elite wing player or players that can defend elite wings.  As great as Jrue is on defense he can't do [expletive] about KD in a 7 game series.  

 

I take it you haven't watched any TOR Raptor games this year, right?  Kawhi looks like a legit MVP candidate.  TOR has the best record in the NBA (21-7).  Spurs with Derozan aren't even a playoff team (13-14 and 12th in the West).

 

Kawhi is NOTHING like AD.  Any team that has Kawhi is a contender.  Can't say the same for AD.


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#50 last stand 2.0

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 05:45 PM

I take it you haven't watched any TOR Raptor games this year, right? Kawhi looks like a legit MVP candidate. TOR has the best record in the NBA (21-7). Spurs with Derozan aren't even a playoff team (13-14 and 12th in the West).

Kawhi is NOTHING like AD. Any team that has Kawhi is a contender. Can't say the same for AD.


Oh boy here we go

Raptors won 59 games last year without Leonard. Terrible argument lol. You’re acting like Leonard went to a 40 win team and suddenly had them playing like they never have

And the spurs won 47 games without him even playing last year

Relax lmao

I’ll take the opinion of one of the greatest coaches in professional sports living today over yours

Nothing against khawi the player, I think he’s easily a top 5 player. But there’s literally no basis that he’s this step above player over Davis. Yes he has a title and finals mvp on a team where he was the best player but not the leader that was still Duncan, Parker and Ginobili who all turned the clock back one last time

Oh and btw he’s missed 6 out of 28 games. He’s missed roughly 1/5th of the early season and they’re still 21-7. That was a contender before he got there and a contender now
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#51 GCMD

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 07:55 PM

That's way more circumstantial than you are letting on.  Toronto was already a really good team and they finessed the Spurs for not just Kawhi who is basically the same stylistically as Derozan but much better in all respects but playmaking and added Danny Green.  

 

So there wasn't a real learning curve for adding in Kawhi and Danny is a good 3 and D player.  The new coach is also using Ibaka like he shouldve been used 2-3 years ago.  The team also has a LOT of good role playing 2 way depth that casuals don't really know about.  

 

Players like Siakem, Van Fleet, Deron Wright are really good starter to bench players that fill holes on both ends.  The team doesn't really have any weaknesses outside of they just dont have Steph, KD or Lebron on the team lol. 

 

The Pelicans biggest issue is that they do not have a dynamic wing.  Idc how good your big man is you cannot win in the NBA without an elite wing player or players that can defend elite wings.  As great as Jrue is on defense he can't do [expletive] about KD in a 7 game series.  

 

I wasn't insulting TOR.  I was pointing out that TOR is playing very well and SAS isn't.  Kawhi was the reason SAS was a contender but DeRozan hasn't made SAS a contender.  Why?

 

Kawhi is a difference maker...someone questioned Kawhi vs AD and their effect on the W/Ls.  Look at Kawhi's season for TOR and the effect he has on TOR.  It's clear.   He's not like AD.

 

Oh boy here we go

Raptors won 59 games last year without Leonard. Terrible argument lol. You’re acting like Leonard went to a 40 win team and suddenly had them playing like they never have

And the spurs won 47 games without him even playing last year

Relax lmao

I’ll take the opinion of one of the greatest coaches in professional sports living today over yours

Nothing against khawi the player, I think he’s easily a top 5 player. But there’s literally no basis that he’s this step above player over Davis. Yes he has a title and finals mvp on a team where he was the best player but not the leader that was still Duncan, Parker and Ginobili who all turned the clock back one last time

Oh and btw he’s missed 6 out of 28 games. He’s missed roughly 1/5th of the early season and they’re still 21-7. That was a contender before he got there and a contender now

 

So the original statement was about Kawhi's effect on his team vs AD's.  If you've watched TOR, you would see Kawhi is having an MVP type season and is the reason they are one of the best teams in the NBA.  They were good but it's not like TOR has Steph/Klay/Dray and added Kawhi.

 

 

If you want to disagree about Kawhi making TOR better, I get it.  But if you think AD's effect on his team is anything like Kawhi's I disagree.


Edited by GCMD, December 10, 2018 - 07:56 PM.


#52 last stand 2.0

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 08:07 PM

I’m not saying khawi doesn’t make Toronto better than derozan, you’ve replaced one player with a better player

What I’m saying is you can’t use Toronto’s record as justification for kawhi being better than Davis and more game changing

Saying a team is 21-7 as proof kawhi is more game changing than Davis when that team won 59 games last year and was considered a contender in the east last season before he even got there doesn’t make sense

You can say that he didn’t go to golden state but the facts remain that he’s gone to a team that was winning at an all league clip before he even got there
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#53 GCMD

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 10:59 PM

I’m not saying khawi doesn’t make Toronto better than derozan, you’ve replaced one player with a better player

What I’m saying is you can’t use Toronto’s record as justification for kawhi being better than Davis and more game changing

Saying a team is 21-7 as proof kawhi is more game changing than Davis when that team won 59 games last year and was considered a contender in the east last season before he even got there doesn’t make sense

You can say that he didn’t go to golden state but the facts remain that he’s gone to a team that was winning at an all league clip before he even got there

 

 

Ok...

 

I'll say that if you've watched TOR this year, you can see that Kawhi helps them win and AD doesn't have the same effect on NOP.

 

If you want to make a case for TOR being more talented, go for it.  TOR has a different coach and a different Franchise player from last year.  That changes the team.

 

Kawhi's impact is felt on TOR.

DeRozan on the Spurs?  They are WORSE than they were last year WITHOUT Kawhi!

AD doesn't move the needle for NOP despite be very talented individually.

 

Kawhi isn't anything like AD.  He's a 3 level scorer and a 2-way player who competes for the DPOY and MVP every single year.  The AD hype is not deserved.



#54 last stand 2.0

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 11:12 PM

Ok...

I'll say that if you've watched TOR this year, you can see that Kawhi helps them win and AD doesn't have the same effect on NOP.

If you want to make a case for TOR being more talented, go for it. TOR has a different coach and a different Franchise player from last year. That changes the team.

Kawhi's impact is felt on TOR.
DeRozan on the Spurs? They are WORSE than they were last year WITHOUT Kawhi!
AD doesn't move the needle for NOP despite be very talented individually.

Kawhi isn't anything like AD. He's a 3 level scorer and a 2-way player who competes for the DPOY and MVP every single year. The AD hype is not deserved.


So you’re saying that the player who was the leading scorer on Toronto when they strolled to 59 wins is making another team worse? So that makes another case for Toronto’s supporting cast lol

That means that Toronto was winning 59 games in spite of derozan

And again kawhi has missed 6 games. That’s more than 1/5th of the season so far.

So again it’s a bad argument any way you slice it.

You’re whole argument is based on the idea that if Anthony Davis were to join the raptors and Leonard were to join the pelicans the roles would reverse
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#55 last stand 2.0

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Posted December 10, 2018 - 11:12 PM

Ok...

I'll say that if you've watched TOR this year, you can see that Kawhi helps them win and AD doesn't have the same effect on NOP.

If you want to make a case for TOR being more talented, go for it. TOR has a different coach and a different Franchise player from last year. That changes the team.

Kawhi's impact is felt on TOR.
DeRozan on the Spurs? They are WORSE than they were last year WITHOUT Kawhi!
AD doesn't move the needle for NOP despite be very talented individually.

Kawhi isn't anything like AD. He's a 3 level scorer and a 2-way player who competes for the DPOY and MVP every single year. The AD hype is not deserved.


So you’re saying that the player who was the leading scorer on Toronto when they strolled to 59 wins is making another team worse? So that makes another case for Toronto’s supporting cast lol

That means that Toronto was winning 59 games in spite of derozan

And again kawhi has missed 6 games. That’s more than 1/5th of the season so far.

So again it’s a bad argument any way you slice it.

You’re whole argument is based on the idea that if Anthony Davis were to join the raptors and Leonard were to join the pelicans the roles would reverse
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#56 noknife

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Posted December 11, 2018 - 08:34 AM

So you’re saying that the player who was the leading scorer on Toronto when they strolled to 59 wins is making another team worse? So that makes another case for Toronto’s supporting cast lol

That means that Toronto was winning 59 games in spite of derozan

And again kawhi has missed 6 games. That’s more than 1/5th of the season so far.

So again it’s a bad argument any way you slice it.

You’re whole argument is based on the idea that if Anthony Davis were to join the raptors and Leonard were to join the pelicans the roles would reverse


This entire argument is impossible to make. Players are variables and have unknown synergies and weaknesses that will come out based on the other players they play with. Sometimes it makes them way more than they previously were, such as McGee this season and sometimes the pieces don’t fit. AD and Kawhi are both great players, with a raw talent level that any NBA team could build around, putting the correct players around them will result in wins, putting the wrong players around them will result in them still being great players that happen to play on losing teams. the end.
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#57 GCMD

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Posted Yesterday, 05:35 PM

So you’re saying that the player who was the leading scorer on Toronto when they strolled to 59 wins is making another team worse? So that makes another case for Toronto’s supporting cast lol

That means that Toronto was winning 59 games in spite of derozan

And again kawhi has missed 6 games. That’s more than 1/5th of the season so far.

So again it’s a bad argument any way you slice it.

You’re whole argument is based on the idea that if Anthony Davis were to join the raptors and Leonard were to join the pelicans the roles would reverse

 

Non-sequitur.  DeRozan's effect on SAS is not an indication that he had no effect on TOR.  It also discounts the fact that DeRozan was drafted by TOR and had that team built around him while Kawhi did NOT have the Spurs OR the Raptors built around him.

 

So while DeRozan's Raptors were designed to accentuate his strengths, Kawhi again proves that he can have a winning effect on ANY TEAM you put him on.

 

Expecting DeRozan to have the same effect on the Spurs as Kawhi would assume DeRozan is the same winning type player as Kawhi, which NO ONE has ever done.

 

Same with AD.  NOP is built around AD...and he STILL can't make them a contender.  This further proves my stance that Kawhi, no matter where he plays, is a winning type player.

 

This entire argument is impossible to make. Players are variables and have unknown synergies and weaknesses that will come out based on the other players they play with. Sometimes it makes them way more than they previously were, such as McGee this season and sometimes the pieces don’t fit. AD and Kawhi are both great players, with a raw talent level that any NBA team could build around, putting the correct players around them will result in wins, putting the wrong players around them will result in them still being great players that happen to play on losing teams. the end.

 

 

See above.

 

Kawhi didn't have Spurs built for him...nor the Raptors.  He affects the game in so many ways that he makes his team better no matter what.

 

AD has the NOP built around him.  He's yet to be as impactful as Kawhi on his team's W/Ls DESPITE having the team built around his strengths and weakness.

 

This isn't a term of art.  It's not an "eye of the beholder" type discussion.  This is a quantifiable effect that a player, when swapped for another team's best player, can match or exceed that other players effect on the team.  The reason it's so clear and quantifiable is it is reserved for Top 5-10 players.  Rarely if EVER does a player who isn't a generational talent type player have this effect on his team.

 

It doesn't take 10 years to establish this type of effect.  Lonzo has this type of potential because he makes winning plays.  If he discovers a way to reliably score when his team needs him to, he will be an Allstar, easily.

 

AD was given the reins from day 1 in NOP.  He's been considered a generational talent, UNICORN type player from college.  None of that has resulted in his TEAM being a contender or him having a noticeable effect on his team's W/Ls outside of him being the best player on the floor most nights.  His team doesn't dominate nor do they become more efficient as a unit because of him.

 

I hope that explains my position.



#58 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted Yesterday, 08:47 PM

Well I just caught the end of Pels vs OKC and Randle missed two free throws with 9.7 seconds left and his team up by two not a signal of anything except not focused on killing it the Pels still won but still, just sayin’




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