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Who Are the Best Point Guards of All Time?


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#1 -Wade-

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Posted July 28, 2018 - 06:22 PM

CP3 is not an all time great PG.

This board is flooded with off the wall stuff. Offseason is in full swing...


Cp3 is certainly an all time great

Kid that was the best Ds in nba history though David is ahead of Dominique and Dirk for me


Stockton
Kidd
Price
Nash
AI
Magic
Payton
Isiah Thomas (DET)
Oscar Robertson

If you want to throw CP3 in there, fine...but I wouldn't put CP3 ahead of those guys...maybe with Tony Parker, Billups and Mark Jackson but I don't think he's much higher than them.

How many times has CP3 been to the NBA Finals? MVP? Lead the league in apg? His team won the most games in the NBA?

CP3 is very talented but so was T-Mac, Steve Francis, Rondo, KJ et cetera...if you mean HOF as AllTime Great, sure...and I apologize for the misunderstanding. If you mean AllTime Great as in one of the best ever? He's good but I wouldn't go that far...


Wait...Mark Price?
CP3 is higher than him isn't he?
Only other guy on your list i might put CP3 higher than is Payton
But thats a pick'm


Replace Stockton with CP3 and the Jazz grab a ring vs the Bulls...and I hate CP3


Mark Price was Steph before Steph...easily one of the most underrated players of the past 30 years.



I'm speechless. Magic Johnson, the best PG in NBA HISTORY lost to the Bulls in the NBA Finals...CP3 would not have moved the needle on the Jazz. Stockton was a better passer, shooter and floor general, not to mention he was PERFECT for Malone and in Jerry Sloane's system.

Please, Please explain to me what CP3 brings to the table that Stockton, a top 3 PG all Time, didn't.


Mark Price was more Nash than Steph.
Pound for pound Cp3 is amongst the best defenders ever.

Cp3 had Karl Malone?
Cavs went to Finals with Price?

Lol


Stockton was mot a better shooter or passer... they had Jerry Sloan in HIS PRIME



John Stockton i think is the most underrated player of all time actually.
Thinking about it for a few minutes.

BTW Fun Fact...He was recently reincarnated as Jokic on the nuggets


I know you're trying to say something but I don't understand what.


Oh really? Let's ignore Stockton having a better 3p%, 2p% and FG% than CP3. Let's look at assists - Stockton led the NBA in APG for 9 straight seasons, IIRC...and who leads the NBA in Assists all time? Stockton...almost 4000 more than Kidd (#2 - 12091) and over 7000 more than CP3.


And what does Jerry Sloan have to do with CP3 vs Stockton as players? If you want to discuss the system or claim CP3 somehow was held back by any system he's been in, that's a different conversation.

And I know this is a new claim but people like to claim CP3 is a good defender...CP3's best year as far as steals? 2008-2009 - 2.8spg. Stockton had 5 straight seasons at or above that:

87-88 - 3.0spg
88-89 - 3.2spg
89-90 - 2.7spg
90-91 - 2.9spg
91-92 - 3.0spg

CP3 2.3spg for his career and Stockton 2.2spg for his career...and who leads the NBA all time in Steals? That's right, Stockton.

Stockton was a better PG than CP3. People who didn't grow up watching him probably wouldn't know that and I get it. He didn't have a flashy game and he wasn't a high flier or elite scorer but he's in my top 5 PG all time for a reason...probably top 3...CP3 is no where near that range.




LOL...I agree. These young kids missed out on some very good players. Sacrilege to even mention CP3 in the same sentence as these other guys based on what he's done thus far...


Stockton is easily better than CP3


I love Stockton. But he was also in a great system. With a great partner who was better than him.
Magic is number 1.
After him Oscar , Stockton, IT, Kidd, Payton and Cp3 all have legit cases as number 2. Cp3 is probably the best all around of all those. Kidd and Payton better defenders but not the scoring prowess. Steph is creeping up too.

John being in one place and being so healthy could give him an edge as far as career but team building... I think I pick Kidd. His 2 Finals appearances with that roster is more impressive than LeBron this past season.

Also


Easily? Hall of Famers aren't that better than each other.
Kobe better than Pierce but Pierce outplayed Kobe a few times


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#2 -Wade-

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Posted July 28, 2018 - 06:25 PM

There is absolutely no legit argument for CP3 being the second best pg of all time



With his championships and shooting, I have a hard time keeping him out of the top 5. Dude also led his team to a 73-9 season, putting up one of the most efficient stat lines ever. While he didn't play up to his usual standards the last 2 playoff seasons, you have to keep in mind he got worn down being repeatedly switched onto Harden and then LeBron. He held his own in those situations, which was impressive. Also has nearly a 50/40/90 career average, shooting almost half his FG from downtown.

I figured that one would be controversial though. Don't expect anyone to agree, just my opinion. I also was watching some Curry footage from 2016 earlier today, so I might be biased.



Curry has had a better prime than any PG not named Magic and put up one of the greatest offensive seasons for any player (not just PG) ever.

73 wins, 2 MVP’s, 3 rings and the most important piece on one of the greatest teams of all-time. His resume and play speaks for itself. He will finish at #2, only behind Magic. If you want to argue Oscar, sure...I didn’t watch him play and neither did anyone here (kball, LakerGeezer?) so that argument will probably be BS and based off googling stats (which also tells us Westbrook>Curry).

He’s top 5 TODAY and in due time will be the undisputed #2. I already got him at 2-3, but I could see legit arguments against his longevity that knock him down among folks. That’s valid.



Put CP3 on those Jazz teams and they don’t miss a beat. Stockton is GREATER and has a better resume, but prime for prime, Chris Paul has an argument.

Based off ability and talent alone he’s top 5. Offensively and defensively he’s one of the most complete PG’s ever. His resume and playoff success falters in comparison to others (Nash, Kidd, Stockton, Curry), so that’s probably why he’s not as high on most people’s lists.



I think Stockton allowed Sloane to implement a style that would not have been possible without Stockton. Substituting a different PG would not likely have had the same result.

CP3 is considered a better PG than Nash by some (for some reason and I don't agree). CP3 did not look like Nash in MDA's offense nor did MDA's offense run as efficiently as with Nash. A system can make a good player look better but a good PG is a system unto himself.

Oscar Robertson averaged 25.7/9.5/7.5 on 48.5% FG%, 83.8% FT% and averaging over 42mpg...CP3 couldn't carry Big O's jock strap.

Jason Kidd is #2 in Assists and Steals while leading the Nets to the NBA Finals and the Mavs to a Ch'ip. CP3 is still chasing Kidd as far as resume and accomplishments.

I can understand preferring CP3's game to other PGs but to claim he's better or even in the same league as those other guys? I don't think a legit case can be made for that...at least not yet.


Well, lots of people could make the case for Draymond being the most important piece...and KD was on the last 2 Ch'ip teams so his "resume" isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be, IMHO.

Will he go down as the best shooter of All Time? More than likely, yeah.
Top 5 PG of all Time? LOL...no. 2nd to Magic? What? How?

Assists? Where is he on that list? Or does that not matter? Over the past 3 years, DRAYMOND GREEN has averaged more ASSISTS per Game than STEPH!!!

6.7 to 7.4
6.6 to 7.0
6.1 to 7.3

How can the #2 PG not even lead his TEAM in Assists for 3 straight years?


Agree to disagree about the Jazz. Malone will tell you that Stockton made his career easier and he would not have been the player he was without him. If you want to claim CP3 could have done better within that system, with those players and for that coach, I disagree.

T-Mac and LO, based on talent alone, should be top 10-20 players all-time...doesn't mean that's where they actually fall. Lots of players have talent but don't have the careers of "less talented" players. Doesn't mean we should diminish what other players did because of our opinion of another players "talent".

At least 9 other PGs were better than CP3 on the floor. What you think of their talent level is irrelevant to this discussion, IMHO. I don't mean that as an insult or a taunt. Just want to make sure we're all in the same conversation.



Steph Curry is more dominant that anybody not Magic on that list...yall boys trippin man. Steph Curry at this rate may finish as a top 10-12 player.



I definitely never said that but Steph has a STRONG argument for such. He's the Shaq of PG's. A gamechanging elite skill that teams just have to deal with and he's been dropping elite numbers for years and add on the winning and domination. We gonna act like Stockton was dominating games like Steph? Stockton wasn't even dominating games like CP3 at ANY stage.



vs 97 Bulls Stockton avg 15/9

vs 98 Bulls he avg 10/9...yall not about to sit up here and say that CP3 wouldn't have dominated games better than him. I hate Cp3 and hope he has to retire RINGLESS lol. Im also actually biased against him but John Stockton was NOT a better basketball player by any stretch.

Saying Stockton is better than CP3 is like saying Jerry West was better than Kobe Bryant cuz hes the logo



Curry IS the Warriors. That team isn’t on this level without him...we can pretend Draymond is just as important, but he’s not dominating games the way Curry was and is. The team and the system are built on Curry’s domination and gravity.

67 wins, 73 wins, 2 MVP’s and a ring before Durant slithered over there. He was on his way there regardless. Give the Warriors a SF who can hit an open shot in 2016 and Durant never goes there in the first place.

GS runs a motion offense with multiple ball-handlers. Draymond acts as the main facilitator on that team most games but most guys with that skill set and in that role would do the same. Who you think he’s passing to for those 7 assists?

None of these PG’s outside of Magic have dominated or had the prime of Curry. Like I said, if you wanna argue longevity go for it, but I’m not sitting here and arguing that Curry isn’t an all-time great PG because he doesn’t lead his team in assists. CP3 is third all time in APG but you got him in the same sentence as Mark Price lol. 9 other PG’s better? Yeah, agree to disagree on that one. No disrespect meant.



You can make a case for Curry being higher on the AllTime list that certain PGs but you can't put him ahead of better PGs on the PG list. It's that simple.


No one has said that Curry isn't a dominant player or that he isn't Über-talented. This is a position discussion, not global talent or dominance.


And please don't pick one year vs 1 team and claim that's indicative of a 19 year career. That doesn't make any sense. It is so weak because of the small sample size AND it ignores a LOT of other factors/variables. We're better than that, no?

Just to show how weak that is, I could make the claim that Stockton would have taken Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan to the NBA Finals at least twice...and most people would agree with me. He'd also have averaged around 15apg playing next to 2 freak athletes in BG and DJ. Jason Kidd would have gotten that team to the NBA Finals at least once and he'd have averaged around 13apg next to them.

You can prefer CP3 without overstating him as a PG...same with Steph. You can't claim GSW's system is "positionless" and then claim Steph is an elite PG. He's a 2 that happens to be the shortest person in the starting lineup and in any other era, he'd be considered a 2. How can I say that? Over GSW's 4 straight NBA Finals appearances, he's led GSW in assists 1 year - the 1st. The last 3? Draymond led them in Assists. Make any excuse you want about why that is but it won't change anything.

Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Price
Big O
Nash

How many of these guys would EVER let their PF average more assists than them in ANY year? Even when Steph led GSW in assists, it was less than 8apg...that's an off year for anyone on that list. Steph has led the NBA in Assists? Never? Come on, man...

Steph could end up being a better player than a lot of those guys but that doesn't mean he will be a better PG. Same with CP3. This is a discussion about the position, not overall ranking as a player. They aren't the same thing.



You guys are switching up the argument. Are we talking about the most "skilled" pg of all time?

Are we not basing our rankings on play in their specific era?

Are we saying what player was the greatest in their prime?

Or are we arguing about legacy or who had the better career?



A top 10-12 player?

Lebron, KD, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Howard, Harden, Nash all played during Steph's career and I'd have a hard time putting him above any of them.

That list is excluding a bunch of all time greats. Steph maybe finishes somewhere in the top 25-30.



No way. Steph is not nearly as dominate as people make him to be. When he gets hot he is damn fun to watch. However, if your claiming a player to be top 15 ever who can just disappear and gets locked up at times, no way.


Steph would be lucky to crack the top 30.



I think you can definitely argue he’s a top 30 player already. I wouldn’t call him lucky to crack that

Having said that there are aspects of his game that I think would prevent him from succeeding in the 90s

Guys like kobe, lebron, wade, Duncan, dirk, Durant just to name some from this era could excel in any era

I’m not sure about curry, he’s incredible at what he does and there’s no question he’s the greatest shooter in league history. I’d say that alone may give him top 30 consideration now

But you can’t put project that guy in the top 15 yet for several reasons. He’s a nonexistent defender, he’s kinda soft and he’s injury prone so longevity is a question but he may end up in the top 25 and I think a more appropriate if he’s lucky statement top 20

You can’t be the greatest at something in league history and not be in a top 20 conversation. At this point with him it’s going to be about longevity.

I mean considering volume and percentages curry has had by far some of the most insane shooting years in league history

And then comes into play that people know what he’s doing and on top of that he takes a couple ridiculous shots a game. He’s most definitely the Michael Jordan of perimeter shooting and I don’t think that in particular is up for debate

I mean the names that people will throw into the discussion, Ray Allen and Reggie miller I can confidently say that having watched both it’s not even in the discussion

Stephen Curry is one of the biggest anomalies in one area of basketball I’ve seen.



Interesting thoughts on some of the players here.
Couple things.

I think in 5 years we will be talking about RW and Steph as in top 6 point guards
(along with magic, stockton, Oscar, Kidd)
And they most likely get rated which era was seen to the fan

Yeah Massacre, i saw Oscar play a couple times against West and Lakers at the old Forum but it was later in his career. Wish i had seen him more (i think mil was actually in the WC back then iirc. Almost positive Chi was). He and Walt frazier were my 2 favorite players not on lakers. Think he won ROTY against West going away to show you how good that guy was.

Back to the list BBQ put up, i count only 16 active players from last season on that list with maybe 5-6 still playing at elite level.
Steph
RW
KD
LBJ
Love

Don't forget way back in the day there was no 3 point line and the game was so much different with shots CLOSEST to the basket being the priority.
I also miss the 3 to make 2 free throw rule when fouled when shooting.
Definitely penalized defense


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#3 Wilt Chamberneezy

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Posted July 28, 2018 - 07:33 PM

1. Magic 2. Isiah Thomas 3. John Stockton 4. Steph Curry 5. Jason Kidd 6. Oscar Robertson 7. Walt Frazier 8. Jerry West 9. Gary Payton 10. Steve Nash

 

Depends on how I feel for the day. 



#4 KidRN

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Posted July 28, 2018 - 08:49 PM

I think Jason Kidd gives you a better chance of winning than Curry. If given even teams, Kidd is better imo.

Same with Nash. Nash on GS instead of Curry and that team is instantly better.

Edited by KidRN, July 28, 2018 - 08:50 PM.


#5 bfc1125roy

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Posted July 28, 2018 - 11:21 PM

I think Jason Kidd gives you a better chance of winning than Curry. If given even teams, Kidd is better imo.

Same with Nash. Nash on GS instead of Curry and that team is instantly better.

 

I'll give you Kidd. With him, teams couldn't pick on Curry in PnR switches, given at age 38 he helped shut down a prime LeBron in the 2011 finals. Excellent playmaker too, obviously.

 

But Nash, aw c'mon man. With Curry, teams have to worry about him as soon as he crosses half court . Nash, while being an amazing shooter, doesn't quite have the same gravity on that front. I don't see him leading the Warriors to a 73-9 season putting up record numbers, or even to a championship in 2015. Plus, his defense is awful, and he would get picked on so much in screen and roll situations, especially with a switch heavy defense. Plus, I don't think Nash could do this:

 

 

BTW, I love how the camera has to pan to get the basket in the frame when he shoots it.


Edited by bfc1125roy, July 28, 2018 - 11:23 PM.


#6 KidRN

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Posted July 29, 2018 - 12:05 AM

I'll take Nash over Steph all day every day
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#7 kball

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Posted July 29, 2018 - 05:16 AM

Hope Mark Jackson isn't browsing this thread

:glasses: 


Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#8 kball

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Posted July 29, 2018 - 05:25 AM

Currently id rank

1. Magic

2. Stockton

3. Oscar

4. Kidd

5. Isiah Thomas

6. Nash

7. Jerry West (Case can be made he was more a SG)

8. Iverson (Case can be made he was more a SG)

9. Curry

10. Cousy

11. Westbrook

12. Payton

13. CP3

 

5 years from now RW and Curry will probably rank just below Kidd

And possibly just above Oscar

IMO

 

Also props to GCMD for throwing Kevin Johnson in there.

Another severely underrated player

Also a pedo now so there's that


Edited by kball, July 29, 2018 - 05:28 AM.

Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#9 kball

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Posted July 29, 2018 - 05:30 AM

BTW probably about half a dozen posters on this forum already wanting to place Lonzo somewhere between 2-10


Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#10 Tensai

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Posted July 29, 2018 - 08:59 AM

1. Magic Johnson

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Stephen Curry

4. John Stockton

5. Isiah Thomas

6. Chris Paul

7. Jason Kidd

8. Steve Nash

9. Russell Westbrook

10. Gary Payton


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#11 lakerfan98

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Posted July 29, 2018 - 03:11 PM

Magic
Oscar
Kidd
IT
Curry
Stockton
Nash

#12 DLN

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Posted July 30, 2018 - 01:23 AM

Good thread

Prefer ranking in tiers.  

 

Tier 1 – GOAT-level: Lebron James

Lebron has a case as the GOAT and if BigO, Curry and Magic are PGs, so is Lebron.

 

Tier 2 – All-time great:

Magic and Big O (Magic the better of the two).

Not much to say. Clearly a level above the rest of the field.

 

Tier 3 – CP3, Curry, Stockton, Bob Cousey, Isiah Thomas, Kidd, Nash, Walt Frazier.

I think you could make a case for all of these guys and they’re really close.



#13 kball

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Posted July 30, 2018 - 03:45 AM

Damn!

That's a nice spin adding LeBron in there Danish.

 

I'd put him #1 as well and its an interesting take

 

It was pretty funny in the finals how often Curry ended up on James.

Seeing guards on LeBron never looks right


Edited by kball, July 30, 2018 - 03:48 AM.

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Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#14 kball

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Posted July 30, 2018 - 03:50 AM

Still wish we'd see a backstage lakers on that Magic meeting at LBJ's house.

That would be one of the best along with Kobe's jersey night and shaq's statue


Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#15 RobBlake

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Posted July 30, 2018 - 11:08 PM

Good thread
Prefer ranking in tiers.

Tier 1 – GOAT-level: Lebron James
Lebron has a case as the GOAT and if BigO, Curry and Magic are PGs, so is Lebron.

Tier 2 – All-time great:
Magic and Big O (Magic the better of the two).
Not much to say. Clearly a level above the rest of the field.

Tier 3 – CP3, Curry, Stockton, Bob Cousey, Isiah Thomas, Kidd, Nash, Walt Frazier.
I think you could make a case for all of these guys and they’re really close.

I would take magic all day -any day over James if we are strictly talking all time pg

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#16 fido

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Posted July 31, 2018 - 05:15 PM

Curry is a shooting guard, not a point guard.

Magic

Stockton

Robertson

Thomas

Maravich

Kidd

Cousy



#17 kball

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Posted July 31, 2018 - 06:43 PM

Curry is a shooting guard, not a point guard.

Magic

Stockton

Robertson

Thomas

Maravich

Kidd

Cousy

Klay called.

Asked you call him back.

 

 

I get that Curry jacks up a lot of shots.

But he also handles the ball a lot.

Granted he shares that duty w Dray and KD a lot but you have to put him as the primary ball handler in the back court his entire career.

Don't you?


Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#18 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 01, 2018 - 02:30 PM

Lol

#19 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 02, 2018 - 05:27 PM

Magic Johnson easily...next topic


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#20 fido

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Posted August 12, 2018 - 11:16 PM

Curry is a shooting guard.






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