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Why I am not high on Brandon Ingram for this upcoming season


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#41 KidRN

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Posted July 21, 2018 - 05:44 PM

i mean, fine. i didn't mean to strawman. i've just seen many people compare ingram to a lite version of tmac, and i can see it.

I've never seen that from anybody but you
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#42 Tensai

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Posted July 21, 2018 - 07:05 PM

OP presented his opinion. While I also don't agree with him, I support his right to express his opinion. People should learn to agree in disagreement. Things get bad really fast when insults, or baits are thrown like hot cakes.

 

We have two months until season opener.


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#43 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted July 21, 2018 - 09:46 PM

Simple argue against another teams players not our own!

#44 bigfetz

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Posted July 21, 2018 - 10:00 PM

But it’s a horrible argument. Why do I need to put effort to say a post is absurd?

And why should we care that OP went to a lot of trouble to say nothing?
“argue it with evidence or counter “

 

If you are unable to express your opinions without insulting others then your time on this forum it limited. There is a level of civility that is expected here and insulting others for absolutely no other reason than having a differentiating opinions is 100% not allowed here. There is no debating this. Either accept this or move to another forum. 


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#45 bfc1125roy

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Posted July 22, 2018 - 12:42 AM

This type of thread is not unusual. We have had one of these every year, Randle and D'Angelo come to mind in recent years.

 

What is interesting to me is that the OP lists Paul Pierce's 2nd year as a comparison to Ingram, however, in his profile he mentions he is a Laker fan (and possibly a basketball watcher) since 2004. If I were him, I wouldn't put him to make my point because stats usually says very little to project a player, especially one as young as Ingram.

 

Go on with someone you actually witnessed at least. You are probably too late for T-Mac too btw.

 

You're absolutely right, I didn't watch Pierce in 2001. But, over the years, as I watched old games of the Laker dynasty in the 00s, the Celtics came up as a possible threat at times. In fact they were supposed to meet us in the finals in the 01-02 season, but the Nets "upset" them after the Celtics lost a series lead. So I have done my homework on the Celtics in that era. But, I didn't draw out the Pierce comparison in detail, mostly because anybody who has watched both of them knows they play nothing alike.

 

I watched T-Mac plenty, btw. And I don't think you can honestly say with a straight face that he plays anything like Ingram. TMac's style was that old 00s midrange game. That's considered "blasphemous" by today's standards.



#46 Tensai

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Posted July 22, 2018 - 01:30 AM

You're absolutely right, I didn't watch Pierce in 2001. But, over the years, as I watched old games of the Laker dynasty in the 00s, the Celtics came up as a possible threat at times. In fact they were supposed to meet us in the finals in the 01-02 season, but the Nets "upset" them after the Celtics lost a series lead. So I have done my homework on the Celtics in that era. But, I didn't draw out the Pierce comparison in detail, mostly because anybody who has watched both of them knows they play nothing alike.

 

I watched T-Mac plenty, btw. And I don't think you can honestly say with a straight face that he plays anything like Ingram. TMac's style was that old 00s midrange game. That's considered "blasphemous" by today's standards.

 

Again, McGrady's first 3 seasons were from 97 to 2000. I would assume you weren't around back then if what you confirmed about Pierce holds. Watching highlights and being around in a young player's development phase are too different. Or were you comparing T-Mac from 2004 to a 20 year old Ingram?

 

I don't even consider these comparisons logical whoever argues it. It just sets out for unfair expectations. I'd rather 'witness' it than speculate it.


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#47 bfc1125roy

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Posted July 22, 2018 - 01:37 AM

Again, McGrady's first 3 seasons were from 97 to 2000. I would assume you weren't around back then if what you confirmed about Pierce holds. Watching highlights and being around in a young player's development phase are too different. Or were you comparing T-Mac from 2004 to a 20 year old Ingram?

 

I don't even consider these comparisons logical whoever argues it. It just sets out for unfair expectations. I'd rather 'witness' it than speculate it.

 

I've watched how McGrady and Vince played in Toronto. And McGrady in Orlando. And McGrady on the Rockets. It also doesn't take a genius to know that Ingram is not putting up 27/8/5 next year. Also, they don't play at all alike. 

 

When I say "watched" I don't mean watched highlights. You can use highlights to tell any story. See below:

 


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#48 PhillyLaker24

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Posted July 22, 2018 - 07:31 PM

So in conclusion, you just feel Ingram can't be a spot up shooter, which means he doesn't match up well with Lebron? No offense, but it seems like you used a lot more space  and effort to get to this conclusion than was needed. Nonetheless, it was a very detailed post and well researched, which is something you don't come across a lot in a sports forum. Long read, but I felt like it was worth it. However, it's plain to the eye that Ingram isn't a spot up shooter, advance stats aren't needed to tell us that. The real debate isn't if Ingram can be a spot up shooter, because at this point he is not, instead, the discussion should be if he needs to be a spot up shooter to play well with Lebron. 


Edited by PhillyLaker24, July 22, 2018 - 07:41 PM.

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#49 bfc1125roy

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Posted July 22, 2018 - 11:01 PM

So in conclusion, you just feel Ingram can't be a spot up shooter, which means he doesn't match up well with Lebron? No offense, but it seems like you used a lot more space  and effort to get to this conclusion than was needed. Nonetheless, it was a very detailed post and well researched, which is something you don't come across a lot in a sports forum. Long read, but I felt like it was worth it. However, it's plain to the eye that Ingram isn't a spot up shooter, advance stats aren't needed to tell us that. The real debate isn't if Ingram can be a spot up shooter, because at this point he is not, instead, the discussion should be if he needs to be a spot up shooter to play well with Lebron. 

 

I think you may have misunderstood.

 

Ingram is good at getting to the rim. We all know that, and the stats show it. However next year, alongside LeBron, I'm not sure how much you want him penetrating defenses. One issue is, that causes injury for someone as underweight as him. Second, in the PnR, he was awful once teams figured out all he was going to do was attack. So unless you want to ISO Ingram and let him drive (terrible idea) we play him off ball. But, his shooting is super suspect, so he isn't really a good fit for us moving forward next year. I think we can use him as an off ball cutter, like Livingston in the Warriors offense, but it remains to be seen if Luke will do that.


Edited by bfc1125roy, July 22, 2018 - 11:01 PM.

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#50 -Wade-

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 11:50 AM

Hey bfc1125roy, that was a very detailed post. I can always appreciate somebody who says, "this is my argument, and this is exactly why I think my argument is true." Very well done on that front.

 

A couple of things I'd like to say.

 

First, I'd have to agree with DanishLakerFan about the significance of age in the analysis. I think a lot of people forget just how young Ingram is and how much he has been improving given his age. He has a killer work ethic and great attitude, which are both things that can take a player much further in their individual growth.

 

Second, how many 20 year olds put up the stats that Ingram put up? I can think of a few...Kobe, KD, and LeBron. That's pretty good company to be with imo. I'm not saying that he will become a superstar, but I am saying that what he has done thus far is very impressive and proves that he has the potential to become an amazing basketball player. He's a good slasher and is smart. Pairing him with people like Rondo and LeBron might do wonders for him.

Kobe Bryant -- 19.9PTS, 3.8AST, 5.3TRB, 1.4STL, 1.0BLK
LeBron James -- 27.2PTS, 7.2AST, 7.4TRB, 2.2STL, 0.7BLK
Kevin Durant -- 25.3PTS, 2.8AST, 6.5TRB, 1.3STL, 0.7BLK

Brandon Ingram -- 16.1PTS, 3.9AST, 5.3TRB, 0.8STL, 0.7BLK

I think your best point was his potential for injury, but that is something that can be corrected more easily than mastering a particular skill. I had mentioned in another thread that I wasn't sure about Ingram's expectations and that I had high hopes for him, but whatever, I'll just say this here: I think he will develop into an all-star and am very glad that Magic Johnson was adamant on Ingram being "untouchable."


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#51 GCMD

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 12:58 PM

Ingram has issues but we have to hope that Luke and LeBron find a way to maximize his strengths.  I don't see AllStar but what do I know...

 

I didn't see it in Russell and I only see star potential in Randle if he has a team built around his strengths.  Both of those guys have high level scoring instincts and tools.  Russell is a shooter and Randle is bruiser.  I'm not sure what Ingram is.  He's not a naturally gifted scorer nor is he naturally assertive on that end.  He needs to bulk up to be a good man defender on a contending team.

 

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.  I'm all for whatever gets the Lakers rings right now.


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#52 GCMD

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 01:12 PM

I'm glad people are being called out for the childish insults.  Differing opinions is good for thoughtful, insightful discussion.

 

IMHO, if you disagree with someone, process their POV, think about how and why theirs differs from yours and provide your POV explaining why you disagree and provide points that the other person may not have thought of.

 

I debate a lot here and I always learn more from a well-thought response than from a "you're stupid", "you're a hater" response.  Even if I don't agree with the POV, if it makes sense and is defensible, I respect it.

 

And what's the point of being an "internet tough guy"?  We're all Lakers Fans, no?


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#53 bfc1125roy

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 03:01 PM

Hey bfc1125roy, that was a very detailed post. I can always appreciate somebody who says, "this is my argument, and this is exactly why I think my argument is true." Very well done on that front.

 

A couple of things I'd like to say.

 

First, I'd have to agree with DanishLakerFan about the significance of age in the analysis. I think a lot of people forget just how young Ingram is and how much he has been improving given his age. He has a killer work ethic and great attitude, which are both things that can take a player much further in their individual growth.

 

Second, how many 20 year olds put up the stats that Ingram put up? I can think of a few...Kobe, KD, and LeBron. That's pretty good company to be with imo. I'm not saying that he will become a superstar, but I am saying that what he has done thus far is very impressive and proves that he has the potential to become an amazing basketball player. He's a good slasher and is smart. Pairing him with people like Rondo and LeBron might do wonders for him.

Kobe Bryant -- 19.9PTS, 3.8AST, 5.3TRB, 1.4STL, 1.0BLK
LeBron James -- 27.2PTS, 7.2AST, 7.4TRB, 2.2STL, 0.7BLK
Kevin Durant -- 25.3PTS, 2.8AST, 6.5TRB, 1.3STL, 0.7BLK

Brandon Ingram -- 16.1PTS, 3.9AST, 5.3TRB, 0.8STL, 0.7BLK

I think your best point was his potential for injury, but that is something that can be corrected more easily than mastering a particular skill. I had mentioned in another thread that I wasn't sure about Ingram's expectations and that I had high hopes for him, but whatever, I'll just say this here: I think he will develop into an all-star and am very glad that Magic Johnson was adamant on Ingram being "untouchable."

 

Thanks for the compliments.

 

I've looked into similar player comparisons in the OP (Hayward, George, Pierce) and done Leonard as well. What I've found is that all 4 of them were much further along in their offensive games at this point, even if all 5 were raw players in their 2nd year.

 

And all but Pierce were very good on D.

 

At the end of the day, Ingram plays one dimensional. He only really has one reliable option - drive to the rim. Couple problems here:

 

1) Good defenses can predict this and deal with it, whether its a closeout situation, PnR, ISO, or whatever.

2) Furthermore, you HAVE to shoot well from the line if you're going to drive - it goes hand it hand. Ingram doesn't do this well.

3) Also that playstyle does lead to injury, and Ingram isn't going to add that much upper body mass in one or two seasons. Other underweight players like Durant dealt with this by upping their perimeter game significantly. Ingram has yet to do it, and his poor FT% indicates to me that this will be a reach.

 

If we want him off ball to save his body - you HAVE to be able to shoot. Otherwise, you play like Livingston. But even he has a very elite midrange game. 

 

As for your last point, I think he will be an all star too. But if he gets there in 3-4 years, I'm not sure its that helpful to LeBron James and our championship efforts.

 

Let's see what he comes back with next season. I hope he proves me wrong and plays like a borderline all star. But I'm not betting the farm on it.


Edited by bfc1125roy, July 23, 2018 - 03:07 PM.

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#54 -Wade-

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 03:08 PM

Good points.

 


At the end of the day, Ingram plays one dimensional. He only really has one reliable option - drive to the rim. Good defenses can predict this and deal with it, whether its a closeout situation, PnR, ISO, or whatever.

 

Ingram was dishing out more assists per game than Kobe and KD were at the age of 20. I don't get too high on stats, but they are an indicator to consider -- when you pair it with the fact that Ingram can take it to the rim and draw in the defense, it could be a lethal tool to have with somebody like LeBron on the squad. I hope they can mesh well together.


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#55 bfc1125roy

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 03:14 PM

Good points.

 

 

Ingram was dishing out more assists per game than Kobe and KD were at the age of 20. I don't get too high on stats, but they are an indicator to consider -- when you pair it with the fact that Ingram can take it to the rim and draw in the defense, it could be a lethal tool to have with somebody like LeBron on the squad. I hope they can mesh well together.

 

Yeah I can see that too. I would rather have LeBron drawing in the defenses, honestly. But if Ingram improves, I'm happy to have him do this too. 


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#56 -Wade-

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 03:15 PM

Yeah I can see that too. I would rather have LeBron drawing in the defenses, honestly. But if Ingram improves, I'm happy to have him do this too. 

 

Agreed! I think it goes without question that LeBron should be (and will be) drawing in the defense most of the time. It'll be very interesting to see how this team works together.


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#57 GCMD

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 04:07 PM

Here's how we need Brandon Ingram to play this year:

 

 

 

 

If he does, we will be a top 3 team in the NBA and he will have a legit chance to be an Allstar.

 

 

 

 

He lacks the bulk or elite speed to be efficient playing this way:

 

 

 

His length will make him very hard to guard IF he catches the ball 1 or 2 steps ahead of the defense.  Use screens and off-ball movement to take advantage of the great passers we have on this team (Lonzo/Rondo/LeBron).

 

 

Randle was a finisher also.  I said that he needed to set good screens, roll hard and finish quickly in the post, not ISO.  Trust me on this...Ingram should NOT try to create against a set defense.  If he does, he won't play 70 games/season very often and he will never be the best he could be.


Edited by GCMD, July 23, 2018 - 04:08 PM.

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#58 MambaMentality

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 04:21 PM

how does the second highlight reel of ingram not remind anyone of tmac?

 

Here's how we need Brandon Ingram to play this year:

 

 

 

 

If he does, we will be a top 3 team in the NBA and he will have a legit chance to be an Allstar.

 

 

 

 

He lacks the bulk or elite speed to be efficient playing this way:

 

 

 

His length will make him very hard to guard IF he catches the ball 1 or 2 steps ahead of the defense.  Use screens and off-ball movement to take advantage of the great passers we have on this team (Lonzo/Rondo/LeBron).

 

 

Randle was a finisher also.  I said that he needed to set good screens, roll hard and finish quickly in the post, not ISO.  Trust me on this...Ingram should NOT try to create against a set defense.  If he does, he won't play 70 games/season very often and he will never be the best he could be.



#59 PhillyLaker24

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 06:07 PM

I think you may have misunderstood.

 

Ingram is good at getting to the rim. We all know that, and the stats show it. However next year, alongside LeBron, I'm not sure how much you want him penetrating defenses. One issue is, that causes injury for someone as underweight as him. Second, in the PnR, he was awful once teams figured out all he was going to do was attack. So unless you want to ISO Ingram and let him drive (terrible idea) we play him off ball. But, his shooting is super suspect, so he isn't really a good fit for us moving forward next year. I think we can use him as an off ball cutter, like Livingston in the Warriors offense, but it remains to be seen if Luke will do that.

 

Again, your conclusion is Ingram's play style doesn't fit with Lebron's. Am I misstating that again? This is becuase you believe you need a spot up shooter and cutter to work with Lebron, correct? 


Edited by PhillyLaker24, July 23, 2018 - 06:08 PM.

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#60 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted July 23, 2018 - 06:11 PM

It’s foolish to either tout or disparage any player, all have unknowns just sit back and enjoy the dead zone til pre-season starts!
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