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Why I am not high on Brandon Ingram for this upcoming season


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#381 DanishLakerFan

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 01:23 AM

Randle could do the same as far as switching on to smaller players in a pinch but to guard smaller players full time, you need to be disciplined and understand how to use your length and speed.  Ingram does ok in spurts but gives up on plays, lacks focus consistently and can get beat easily when his man doesn't have the ball.

 

As far as him being capable on the ball, sure...so is Hart, Kuzma and Lance.  Doesn't mean we should force those guys out front either.

 

Play to your strengths.  On ball is not Ingram's strength.

 

 

 

Ingram doesn't make sense for us as he is.  It's not about the targets that people bring up.  It's about what WE need.  Ingram isn't the best player for the style we are trying to play.  To be perfectly honest, I'd rather Kuzma at the 4 next to LeBron at the 3 than Ingram at the 3 with LeBron at the 4. 

 

Use Ingram in a trade to find a 2 that can:

 

Hit the 3

Move without the ball

Defend 1-3

Take over scoring when LeBron needs a rest.

 

Tall order but it makes sense...much more sense than Ingram at the 3 right now.

 

 

In theory, Beal is close to a perfect fit.  I don't like Beal or his CRAZY MONSTROUS Contract but you're on the right track.

 

I know it's not happening but Ingram for:

 

Donovan Mitchell

Victor Oladipo

Gordon Hayward

Markelle Fultz

CJ McCollum

 

That would bring this team's starters into better balance.  I hate Beal & Fultz so including them hurst.  Swap any of those 6 (Beal + those 5) and the Lakers are likely a top 3 team in the NBA.  I know the salaries don't work and the other teams don't have an incentive to make those trades but this is just to get you to understand how I see our roster issues.

 

Ingram is talented but what he is trying to be clashes with the style that benefits:

 

Glue/Scorers

Kuzma

Lance

Hart

 

Creators/Facilitators

Lonzo

LeBron

Rondo

 

Finishers/Anchors

McGee

Chandler

 

 

Need I continue?  The only thing that list is missing is a legit scoring guard/defender at the 2-3.  Ingram just doesn't fit, IMHO.  I'm not bashing him.  I'm not saying he won't be a good player.  I'm looking at this from a team building POV.  With or without LeBron, Ingram slows this team down.

 

I know what your opinion is and i dont disagree on what would help our team right now, which would be a guy like Kawhi or Klay - a wing who can shoot 3s, move without the ball and defend the 2 and 3. I do think it is a bit overstated because we currently sit 8th in offensive efficiency, so we are doing something right on that end. Defensively is where we have issues and BI for all his flaws still is a much better defender than the other guys we have at the wing.

 

You talk about Ingram as he is, rather than who he can become and i think that's where we disagree. Right now BI isn't even looking to shoot from 3, which is strange because he shoots pretty well (40%) building on last year's 38%. If he was firing off 5 3s per game and looked to find those shots i'm not sure we're having this discussion. And i dont think it's all that difficult for him to do this.

 

Another point is about team-building. Say we did trade for someone like McCollum we might be the most potent offense in the league, but it would come at a major cost defensively AND it would prevent us from chasing a max level guy in free agency. In other words, if we are trading BI for someone i think that someone has to be able to make us a contender right now and i'm not sure who is available out there right now that does that.

 

I think Butler could be a candidate because of his ability on the defensive end. Another guy would be Khris Middleton. I'm not really a fan of Beal, but i could be wrong on that one.



#382 GCMD

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 01:43 AM

I know what your opinion is and i dont disagree on what would help our team right now, which would be a guy like Kawhi or Klay - a wing who can shoot 3s, move without the ball and defend the 2 and 3. I do think it is a bit overstated because we currently sit 8th in offensive efficiency, so we are doing something right on that end. Defensively is where we have issues and BI for all his flaws still is a much better defender than the other guys we have at the wing.

 

You talk about Ingram as he is, rather than who he can become and i think that's where we disagree. Right now BI isn't even looking to shoot from 3, which is strange because he shoots pretty well (40%) building on last year's 38%. If he was firing off 5 3s per game and looked to find those shots i'm not sure we're having this discussion. And i dont think it's all that difficult for him to do this.

 

Another point is about team-building. Say we did trade for someone like McCollum we might be the most potent offense in the league, but it would come at a major cost defensively AND it would prevent us from chasing a max level guy in free agency. In other words, if we are trading BI for someone i think that someone has to be able to make us a contender right now and i'm not sure who is available out there right now that does that.

 

I think Butler could be a candidate because of his ability on the defensive end. Another guy would be Khris Middleton. I'm not really a fan of Beal, but i could be wrong on that one.

 

 

Our offensive efficiency comes from pace, not execution.

 

BI's 3 isn't the biggest issue.  We want to play fast and he stands/watches on O if he doesn't have the ball.  Style doesn't fit.  That can change but I don't see it now.

 

McCollum was included as an example of style and ability.  Price and future was not the point.  He was an example of type of player not a legit target.  We are missing a player who can help LeBron by taking off the on-ball-pressure.  McCollum type-player would do that without us forcing guys like Rondo and Lonzo out of their natural position and tendencies.

 

I don't like Beal either.  Butler is a very good 2nd fiddle.  Middleton and Covington do what Ingram needs to do - 3 and D.  Not too much on ball dribbling, great on-ball and help defenders while being low maintenance on the offensive.

 

The other guys do what they do best.  Ingram doesn't and is kinda out of position.  He's not a #2 option.


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#383 DanishLakerFan

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 02:12 AM

Our offensive efficiency comes from pace, not execution.

 

BI's 3 isn't the biggest issue.  We want to play fast and he stands/watches on O if he doesn't have the ball.  Style doesn't fit.  That can change but I don't see it now.

 

McCollum was included as an example of style and ability.  Price and future was not the point.  He was an example of type of player not a legit target.  We are missing a player who can help LeBron by taking off the on-ball-pressure.  McCollum type-player would do that without us forcing guys like Rondo and Lonzo out of their natural position and tendencies.

 

I don't like Beal either.  Butler is a very good 2nd fiddle.  Middleton and Covington do what Ingram needs to do - 3 and D.  Not too much on ball dribbling, great on-ball and help defenders while being low maintenance on the offensive.

 

The other guys do what they do best.  Ingram doesn't and is kinda out of position.  He's not a #2 option.

 

We're top 10 in offensive efficiency based on Hollingers model where pace is factored in. So i dont really agree that we are lacking all that much in that department. Kuz may be a better fit offensively next to Lebron but it comes at a cost in defensive effeciency.

 

I think BIs 3 is a big issue because he isn't looking to shoot it at all and as a result isn't re-locating to get open looks from that distance. There was a play at the end of the game vs. Minny where Lebron had the ball at the right elbow, Rose was on BI at the top and all he (BI) had to do was to take 3 steps to the right and it would have been an easy pass from Lebron and an open 3 from the wing. But he got out of the way instead. If BI start to look for open catch-and-shoot 3s, i think that solves much of the issues he has on offense.

 

The solution to me is to roll with these guys until the deadline and then perhaps look to make some moves. Kyle Kover could probably be had at next to nothing and he would help a hell of a lot offensively and perhaps KCP finds his groove as well. If not, perhaps look to find a replacement there. I'm not necessarily against moving BI as long as the big-picture goal is kept in mind and in that regard i have my doubts when it comes to someone like Beal. Sure, he helps us a bit this season - perhaps taking our title-odds from 3% to 8% for this season, but we wouldn't be able to sign anyone in the offseason and would lock ourselves into that team. Instead, if we signed Kahwi or Durant in the offseason and then moved BI for a third star - possibly even AD - then we'd be in business .


Edited by DanishLakerFan, November 08, 2018 - 02:13 AM.


#384 GCMD

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 03:47 AM

We're top 10 in offensive efficiency based on Hollingers model where pace is factored in. So i dont really agree that we are lacking all that much in that department. Kuz may be a better fit offensively next to Lebron but it comes at a cost in defensive effeciency.

 

I think BIs 3 is a big issue because he isn't looking to shoot it at all and as a result isn't re-locating to get open looks from that distance. There was a play at the end of the game vs. Minny where Lebron had the ball at the right elbow, Rose was on BI at the top and all he (BI) had to do was to take 3 steps to the right and it would have been an easy pass from Lebron and an open 3 from the wing. But he got out of the way instead. If BI start to look for open catch-and-shoot 3s, i think that solves much of the issues he has on offense.

 

The solution to me is to roll with these guys until the deadline and then perhaps look to make some moves. Kyle Kover could probably be had at next to nothing and he would help a hell of a lot offensively and perhaps KCP finds his groove as well. If not, perhaps look to find a replacement there. I'm not necessarily against moving BI as long as the big-picture goal is kept in mind and in that regard i have my doubts when it comes to someone like Beal. Sure, he helps us a bit this season - perhaps taking our title-odds from 3% to 8% for this season, but we wouldn't be able to sign anyone in the offseason and would lock ourselves into that team. Instead, if we signed Kahwi or Durant in the offseason and then moved BI for a third star - possibly even AD - then we'd be in business .

 

Pace is a huge factor because we are attacking against minimal defense in transition which leads to higher percentage shots.  Increases FG% which is the heart of offensive efficiency.

 

You're saying Ingram isn't looking for the 3...then what is he doing on the wing?  Standing there.  He's not relocating for the 3.  He's not setting an off ball screen.  He's not calling for an off-ball screen.  He's not moving a lot at all, which is what I was saying.  I don't think the 3 should be what he looks for.

 

IMHO, Ingram coming off rubs and brush screens WITHOUT THE BALL would be IDEAL.  He's so long that a half step is like 3-5 feet separation with his stride and wingspan.  No way the defender gets back into the play before Ingram can finish or create a play for the Screener.

 

As for the solution, I don't have any answers.  I can tell what we need and what we don't need but when we need to make a move, when we can make a move or who will be available?  I can't say. 

 

I don't like Beal but it's a personal preference.  He's a legit AllStar level talent.  So is McCollum.

Korver isn't a 3rd option right now.  I'd take him but he doesn't solve the issue of not having a legit 2nd.

I have no hope that KCP can be a #2 option.

I see real issues with Ingram/LeBron at the 3/4.

If we can land Kawhi, this year, we good for sure...I would definitely be open to trading for him instead of waiting.

 

I'm not nearly as concerned about adding a 3rd max player as I am about a legit #2.  AD is a pipe dream.  KD has a lot of other options.  If we can get Kawhi now, IMHO, we should do it.  If it costs us Ingram, Lonzo or Kuzma, so be it.


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#385 DanishLakerFan

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 05:29 AM

Pace is a huge factor because we are attacking against minimal defense in transition which leads to higher percentage shots.  Increases FG% which is the heart of offensive efficiency.

 

You're saying Ingram isn't looking for the 3...then what is he doing on the wing?  Standing there.  He's not relocating for the 3.  He's not setting an off ball screen.  He's not calling for an off-ball screen.  He's not moving a lot at all, which is what I was saying.  I don't think the 3 should be what he looks for.

 

IMHO, Ingram coming off rubs and brush screens WITHOUT THE BALL would be IDEAL.  He's so long that a half step is like 3-5 feet separation with his stride and wingspan.  No way the defender gets back into the play before Ingram can finish or create a play for the Screener.

 

As for the solution, I don't have any answers.  I can tell what we need and what we don't need but when we need to make a move, when we can make a move or who will be available?  I can't say. 

 

I don't like Beal but it's a personal preference.  He's a legit AllStar level talent.  So is McCollum.

Korver isn't a 3rd option right now.  I'd take him but he doesn't solve the issue of not having a legit 2nd.

I have no hope that KCP can be a #2 option.

I see real issues with Ingram/LeBron at the 3/4.

If we can land Kawhi, this year, we good for sure...I would definitely be open to trading for him instead of waiting.

 

I'm not nearly as concerned about adding a 3rd max player as I am about a legit #2.  AD is a pipe dream.  KD has a lot of other options.  If we can get Kawhi now, IMHO, we should do it.  If it costs us Ingram, Lonzo or Kuzma, so be it.

 

My point is that the #2 options that might be available now probably isn't going to be enough and it would prevent us from getting the #2 AND #3 option in the summer. AD isn't going anywhere now with 3 years left on his deal. Toronto are all-in on Kawhi for a title-run this season so he's not going anywhere either.  

 

The only player that i could see us chasing is Butler because he would be a damn solid #2 option and his defensive ability (along with Lonzo) would allow them to run with Kuz/Lebron at the 3-4 spot and even given them some extra spending power in the summer. But LA should only go down that road if they continue to struggle AND dont have any feel for what the 2019 FAs will do.



#386 Jody Smokes

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 05:43 AM

The problem with this line of thinking is that you think 1 team has control over a trade.  You have to step outside the lens as a Lakers fan to have these kind of discussions.  

 

Ask yourself if you're NO do you trade a guy that's an MVP caliber player when you have the most talented roster you've ever had? 

 

Im sure if NO flames out bad this year he asks to be traded but that's not going to happen to the offseason.  LA needs to be focused on the guys on the roster.  Looking for the next trade or free agent and not dealing with the present is why fans of this org aren't enjoying basketball.  

 

 

 

My general point is why not try to trade for him sooner than later? These young guys are complementary filler material. I’d rather have AD and a depleted roster this season and a total rebuild around him and Bron in the summer.


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#387 noknife

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 07:36 AM

This is what I've been saying the whole time. The young kids are role players. I'm not sure why people want to hold on to them like theyre franchise players.


Because this is a Lakers message board. Most people on here think that Svi and Wagner are going to turn into all stars, kendall Marshall will be the next magic Johnson, etc etc. They overvalue everything the Lakers have and also think that opposing GMs are also on the Lakers payroll ready to unload their assets for whatever the Lakers offer. The reality is, the Lakers have 2 guys that can definitely play in Kuzma and Hart, BI is a weird fit with LeBron but he has the highest ceiling of any of the young guys (my opinion) and Zo is extremely inconsistent at this point, but also very young and I think will work great with LeBron. The Lakers need a clear second option and they need some shooters. I would have loved to have kept Lopez and I think looking at someone like Korver could be smart. As far as the AD trade fantasies, those can stop. The Lakers have a zero percent chance of trading for him this season for anyone on their team, including LeBron.
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#388 Jody Smokes

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 08:09 AM

I don't think they need a 2nd option per se.  They just need 1 or 2 of the guys to be productive enough to have Lebron close games.  Offense is not the issue on this team.  2nd and 3rd options are for teams don't have reliable playmakers all over the roster.  There's too much offensive talent to regulate 1 single guy as the 2nd option.  

 

If Kuz is not hitting that night then Hart and Ingram damn sure better be.  On a night they all are productive things work out.  


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#389 MambaMentality

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 09:34 AM

you're right. i'm just hoping for an extenuating circumstance in NO and proposing a hypothetical trade.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that you think 1 team has control over a trade.  You have to step outside the lens as a Lakers fan to have these kind of discussions.  

 

Ask yourself if you're NO do you trade a guy that's an MVP caliber player when you have the most talented roster you've ever had? 

 

Im sure if NO flames out bad this year he asks to be traded but that's not going to happen to the offseason.  LA needs to be focused on the guys on the roster.  Looking for the next trade or free agent and not dealing with the present is why fans of this org aren't enjoying basketball.  



#390 Adam

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 10:15 AM

There is NO ONE the lakers can legitimately trade for this season that will push us over the top. We can make lots of trades that will maybe move us forward a little bit, but nothing that really moves the needle. 

 

If anyone disagrees with this statement, please tell me why. The need to make a trade/move has already been established. Lets stop beating that horse to death. There's nothing left to beat anymore. Give me names, teams, what will be offered. If you don't know how the salaries match up and all that other good stuff, we can figure it out together. 

 

And I'm not saying this to call anyone out or anything but I'm just trying to give our discussion a little more focus and direction. There are a limited number of stars we can trade for. It shouldn't be too hard to go down the list and see why we can't get any of them.

 

It'd actually be really nice if someone could put together a list of players we're looking to get and then we can collectively go down that list and discuss whose available and whose not. then we can discuss trade packages for the remaining players. I don't think there will be any players but it'll be interesting nonetheless. 



#391 Adam

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 10:18 AM

I'll start the list; please add to it:

 

- Jimmy Butler

- Kevin Durant

- Kawhi Leanord

- Bradley Beal

- Damian Lillard

- John Wall

- Kemba Walker

- Kris Middleton 

- Anthony Davis

- Giannis Antetokounmpo

- Klay Thompson

 

I can't think of anyone else. Lets add as many names to the list as we can. Then we can go down the list. I think this would be a more productive use of our efforts



#392 DanishLakerFan

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 12:11 PM

The main issue with making a major trade is that the team we are trying to beat isn't your typical championship contender. This Warriors squad might be the best team in NBA history and they could literally win 75 games this season. They have 5 all-stars. Two legit MVP candidates. Two legit DPOY candidates. The hands down best shooter of all time and then Klay who might be the only person who have a chance at matching Kobe's 81 (although he probably wont). And Boogie.

 

 

In other words, trading BI for Beal simply wont be anywhere near enough to beat the Warriors.

 

As for the available guys:

AD, Giannis, KD, Klay and Kawhi wont get traded this season.

 

This pretty much narrows things down to a small handfull of guys that either are too expensive to acquire or wont get it done.

 

LIke i said before, Butler is somewhere in between and if you can get him for BI-filler or Kuz and/or Hart-picks-filler, then its something to look at because it allows you to follow up with another move closer to the deadline.


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#393 Massacre

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 12:31 PM

Ingram for Markelle Fultz? What the hell? This might be the worst thing I’ve ever seen a Lakers fan post.
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#394 Massacre

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 12:32 PM

It’s crazy how perception shapes things.

#395 DanishLakerFan

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 12:40 PM

Ingram for Markelle Fultz? What the hell? This might be the worst thing I’ve ever seen a Lakers fan post.

I think he was referring to Fultz as a player type.


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#396 Massacre

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 12:44 PM

I think he was referring to Fultz as a player type.


I know it's not happening but Ingram for:

Donovan Mitchell
Victor Oladipo
Gordon Hayward
Markelle Fultz
CJ McCollum

That would bring this team's starters into better balance. I hate Beal & Fultz so including them hurst. Swap any of those 6 (Beal + those 5) and the Lakers are likely a top 3 team in the NBA. I know the salaries don't work and the other teams don't have an incentive to make those trades but this is just to get you to understand how I see our roster issues.



#397 KidRN

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Posted November 08, 2018 - 02:28 PM

2nd and 3rd options are for teams don't have reliable playmakers all over the roster.

What?

Spurs were an amazing passing team and they had clear 2nd and 3rd options. Same goes for the Warriors. Please clarify what you meant because that made absolutely no sense.
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#398 DanishLakerFan

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Posted November 09, 2018 - 11:02 PM

One name i didn't mentioned before, who might be someone we could consider in a trade is Josh Richardson from Miami.

 

The guy is putting up 20-4.5-3-1-1, shoots 40% from 3, defends multiple positions and is on a very team-friendly 4yr deal. He'd help a hell of a lot right now and still put us in a position to offer anyone a max in the summer.

 

Not sure how much added incentive is needed, though.



#399 GCMD

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Posted November 11, 2018 - 12:30 AM

My point is that the #2 options that might be available now probably isn't going to be enough and it would prevent us from getting the #2 AND #3 option in the summer. AD isn't going anywhere now with 3 years left on his deal. Toronto are all-in on Kawhi for a title-run this season so he's not going anywhere either.  

 

The only player that i could see us chasing is Butler because he would be a damn solid #2 option and his defensive ability (along with Lonzo) would allow them to run with Kuz/Lebron at the 3-4 spot and even given them some extra spending power in the summer. But LA should only go down that road if they continue to struggle AND dont have any feel for what the 2019 FAs will do.

 

Hard to say who will be available at this point.  This time last year, I thought landing LeBron was a pipe dream...but here we are.

 

I think it's more important to identify who we want to be and what's not working than to scrutinize what's available.  Chance favors the prepared mind.  If we know what we want and need, we could be better prepared to make a move before anyone knows that move/player is available.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that you think 1 team has control over a trade.  You have to step outside the lens as a Lakers fan to have these kind of discussions.  

 

Ask yourself if you're NO do you trade a guy that's an MVP caliber player when you have the most talented roster you've ever had? 

 

Im sure if NO flames out bad this year he asks to be traded but that's not going to happen to the offseason.  LA needs to be focused on the guys on the roster.  Looking for the next trade or free agent and not dealing with the present is why fans of this org aren't enjoying basketball.  

 

Are you saying you think we should wait for our guys to get better?  In a perfect world, I'd agree.  Problem I see is none of them has displayed the potential to be what we need in the time frame we need it (if ever).

 

I don't think they need a 2nd option per se.  They just need 1 or 2 of the guys to be productive enough to have Lebron close games.  Offense is not the issue on this team.  2nd and 3rd options are for teams don't have reliable playmakers all over the roster.  There's too much offensive talent to regulate 1 single guy as the 2nd option.  

 

If Kuz is not hitting that night then Hart and Ingram damn sure better be.  On a night they all are productive things work out.  

 

 

I respectfully disagree.  We clearly (IMHO) need a #2 option because LeBron will age quickly if he continues to have to be "The Guy" without #2 type help.

 

 

The main issue with making a major trade is that the team we are trying to beat isn't your typical championship contender. This Warriors squad might be the best team in NBA history and they could literally win 75 games this season. They have 5 all-stars. Two legit MVP candidates. Two legit DPOY candidates. The hands down best shooter of all time and then Klay who might be the only person who have a chance at matching Kobe's 81 (although he probably wont). And Boogie.

 

 

In other words, trading BI for Beal simply wont be anywhere near enough to beat the Warriors.

 

As for the available guys:

AD, Giannis, KD, Klay and Kawhi wont get traded this season.

 

This pretty much narrows things down to a small handfull of guys that either are too expensive to acquire or wont get it done.

 

LIke i said before, Butler is somewhere in between and if you can get him for BI-filler or Kuz and/or Hart-picks-filler, then its something to look at because it allows you to follow up with another move closer to the deadline.

 

I don't think it's a given that a Beal-Type player doesn't give us a chance.  1 injury on that squad makes GSW vulnerable.  Chance favors the Prepared Mind.  I'd rather be the 2nd best in the NBA with a legit shot to knock off GSW than putting off changes because I've conceded the Championship to GSW.

 

If Ingram, Kuzma, Lonzo or Hart were displaying Simmons, AD, Giannis, Embiid like Franchise Potential, you'd have a point.  I'd pause before trading any of them.

 

Right now, NONE of our guys would be the 1st choice of ANY GM in the NBA to be the Franchise.  At best, they are 2-3 years away from being great 3rd options or borderline #2 options.  By that time, we will be in the market for #1 AND #2 options while paying our guys like #1/#2 options.

 

So why wait out GSW?  I seriously doubt they give up on basketball once Steph, Klay and Dray start to show their ages, which will be at least 2 years AFTER LeBron starts to fade.

 

Ingram for Markelle Fultz? What the hell? This might be the worst thing I’ve ever seen a Lakers fan post.

 

This is the type of stuff that starts long silly debates.  Please don't misrepresent what I wrote.  Don't take one post out of context.  We don't have to conversate like that.

 

If you just want to argue and belittle people, please leave me out of it.  I appreciate you respecting my sincere request.


Edited by GCMD, November 11, 2018 - 12:33 AM.

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#400 Massacre

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Posted November 11, 2018 - 04:46 AM

You literally said trading Ingram for Markelle Fultz (who can’t shoot, defend, move, or score like Ingram, and frankly is barely an NBA player at this point) makes the Lakers a top 3 team. Please clarify what I misrepresented and took out of context. And please don’t post a UW highlight tape.

Thanks.




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