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#21 KidRN

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 05:59 AM

Really?

I can see that but only in terms of flashiness...
And ability to make really difficult shots.
Kobe gets the nod there imo

If Lebron does what he did in this years playoffs with a quality team and beats GS, even if it's in a Laker jersey, I may change my mind.

I will say this though, Lebron has the biggest skill gap between he and the second best player in the league that I've ever seen though.

Edited by KidRN, June 28, 2018 - 06:00 AM.

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#22 Adam

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 09:28 AM

I'd compare the path to the finals. I remember there was some stat that showed the number of 50+ win teams the Lakers had to go though to win compared to how many Lebron had to go through. Night and day difference. Stat's like that give a much needed perspective. It's easy to say the eastern conference is weak. Tensai made some crazy in depth post about east vs west in some thread talking about win differential or some other stat i don't remember. you can go back and look at that (or hopefully someone else can bump that post!!). but i think the 50+win teams will resonate more with the common fan. it's easy to understand and digest the implications. 

 

and it's all a matter of perspective. people say lebron went to 8?7? straight finals and he's 3-7 overall or whatever. OMG GOAT!! that's really impressive, no doubt. but compared to MJ's 6-0 finals record. Sure MJ got bounced out the playoffs more but when he was winning, he was damn near unstoppable. Remember MJ's bulls also had the 72-9 record. MJ also had like what 11 scoring titles in his first 13 seasons. which brings up another point. Lebron is in his 15th season. or just finished. how many did MJ play? you can count his time with the wizards if you want  (didn't he post like 20ppg as a 40 year old?)

 

The rape case really hurt Kobe's legacy. I also think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what happened. When I hear rape, I think of some guy forcing himself onto a girl. That's not exactly what happened. that woman willingly committed adultry with kobe. or was it the other way around? whatever. The rape charge was for the non-consensual sex act Kobe did at the end. he gave her a pearl necklace and she didn't want it. for those who don't know what that is, urban dictionary. everything else the two of them did in that hotel room, was cosensual. he didn't drag her into his room or trick her into coming there. he didn't trick her into having sex with him nor did he force himself on her. all this being said, it's very important to have consent about sex from the beginning all the way to the end. just because a girl is willing to have intimate relations with you doesn't give you the green light to do whatever you want! I AM NOT DEFENDING KOBE BY THE WAY!!!! don't twist my words. homeboy cheated on his wife and committed adultry. I respect him as a basketball savant but not a person. 

 

it's kind of weird. i never really had Kobe over MJ for some of the reason above but I always enjoyed putting kobe over mj anyways. had shaq stayed around a little longer or especially if kobe had willed his team past the suns in game 7 in 05/05 or 06/07 than hands down kobe would be the GOAT. No perimeter scorer has ever won a championship by himself, as far as i know. that feat would probably never happen again and that was the only year kobe or anyone could have really done it. but he didn't and the rest is history. but now that people are not only edging kobe out but putting lebron over MJ? it's damn easy for me to say MJ is the GOAT. i give honorable mention to Kareem even more now because dude literally had the most unstoppable shot. 

 

 

anyways, my last and most important point. if i'm wrong about the pearl necklace or anything else, i will apologize and admit im wrong. Trust me, if the rape case was worse than i think it was, than i'd like to know. and please, please don't think i was in any way trying to excuse kobe for his actions. I wasn't and if I came off like that, please let me know. and if you think i could have presented my points in a better manner, again, please let me know. thanks!

 

 

What would you say if I said that LeBron making it to the finals is better than MJ/Kobe losing in earlier rounds of the playoffs for multiple seasons? 


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#23 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 12:07 PM

I have him over Kobe mostly the eye test and stats.

And health throughout his career.

 

LeBron also started out faster and contributed more right off the bat than kobe.

And LBJ had no one close to the player kobe had with shaq, and has still accomplished so many things.

He also has 3 more MVPs.

 

And just a wider range of overall talent. Affecting the game in more areas. In addition to being a lethal and capable scorer consistently.

 

The measure of how great LeBron is, is how many folks ON A LAKER WORSHIP FORUM are willing to concede lebron is just thismuch better than the greatest laker ever.

 

And there have been a lot of great lakers.

 

And as much as i love my lakers i have

Oscar slightly ahead of West

Bird (but even more slightly) ahead of Magic...And Magic and Bird still remains my favorite rivalry ever by a wide margin

 

Not a lot of daylight between these comparisons.

But some

 

Kobe remains my favorite player of all-time 

 

 

Because LeBron is a better player than Kobe.  There is no bigger fan of Kobe than me, my dogs name is Kobe (named after Bryant).  I have watched both of their careers, I want Kobe to be the better player, because I love the Lakers.  He just isn't.  Kobe is better than anyone other than LeBron that plays in the current NBA, but he is definitely below him in the pantheon of all time greats, its been true for awhile, its true now, and it will be true when the dust settles.

 

Thanks for this. I think you will find my article will provide a good perspective



#24 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 12:08 PM

I give Kobe the eye test easily on both ends of the court.

At their very best, I'm taking Kobe.

Lebron as great as he is, may be the most overrated player in history. He was forced into the Jordan comparisons prematurely. Excuses are made for every single downfall he's had. I've never seen so many excuses made for an athlete in my entire life. Kobe was forced into the Jordan comparison prematurely as well but it didn't last nearly as long because of the rape case.

Look at the other all time greats of this generation...

Nobody makes excuses for Mayweather, Brady, Woods, Kobe, Jeter...

Their legacies are based on what they DID. I feel like Bron's is based on what he COULD HAVE DONE.

 

This is a great point as well.

 

Having watched both players, the eye test tells me Kobe is better as well. I've never seen anyone dominate games the way he did, especially down the stretch and when teams took away the drive to the basket.

 

My difficulty has always been expressing this more analytically. Right now, I'm doing some analysis of the triangle to explain why Kobe's stats totals may have been less than LeBron's in the Mike Brown/John Kuester Cleveland offense. But I probably need more material to make a good case.


Edited by bfc1125roy, June 28, 2018 - 12:11 PM.


#25 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 12:08 PM

I'd compare the path to the finals. I remember there was some stat that showed the number of 50+ win teams the Lakers had to go though to win compared to how many Lebron had to go through. Night and day difference. Stat's like that give a much needed perspective. It's easy to say the eastern conference is weak. Tensai made some crazy in depth post about east vs west in some thread talking about win differential or some other stat i don't remember. you can go back and look at that (or hopefully someone else can bump that post!!). but i think the 50+win teams will resonate more with the common fan. it's easy to understand and digest the implications. 

 

and it's all a matter of perspective. people say lebron went to 8?7? straight finals and he's 3-7 overall or whatever. OMG GOAT!! that's really impressive, no doubt. but compared to MJ's 6-0 finals record. Sure MJ got bounced out the playoffs more but when he was winning, he was damn near unstoppable. Remember MJ's bulls also had the 72-9 record. MJ also had like what 11 scoring titles in his first 13 seasons. which brings up another point. Lebron is in his 15th season. or just finished. how many did MJ play? you can count his time with the wizards if you want  (didn't he post like 20ppg as a 40 year old?)

 

The rape case really hurt Kobe's legacy. I also think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what happened. When I hear rape, I think of some guy forcing himself onto a girl. That's not exactly what happened. that woman willingly committed adultry with kobe. or was it the other way around? whatever. The rape charge was for the non-consensual sex act Kobe did at the end. he gave her a pearl necklace and she didn't want it. for those who don't know what that is, urban dictionary. everything else the two of them did in that hotel room, was cosensual. he didn't drag her into his room or trick her into coming there. he didn't trick her into having sex with him nor did he force himself on her. all this being said, it's very important to have consent about sex from the beginning all the way to the end. just because a girl is willing to have intimate relations with you doesn't give you the green light to do whatever you want! I AM NOT DEFENDING KOBE BY THE WAY!!!! don't twist my words. homeboy cheated on his wife and committed adultry. I respect him as a basketball savant but not a person. 

 

it's kind of weird. i never really had Kobe over MJ for some of the reason above but I always enjoyed putting kobe over mj anyways. had shaq stayed around a little longer or especially if kobe had willed his team past the suns in game 7 in 05/05 or 06/07 than hands down kobe would be the GOAT. No perimeter scorer has ever won a championship by himself, as far as i know. that feat would probably never happen again and that was the only year kobe or anyone could have really done it. but he didn't and the rest is history. but now that people are not only edging kobe out but putting lebron over MJ? it's damn easy for me to say MJ is the GOAT. i give honorable mention to Kareem even more now because dude literally had the most unstoppable shot. 

 

 

anyways, my last and most important point. if i'm wrong about the pearl necklace or anything else, i will apologize and admit im wrong. Trust me, if the rape case was worse than i think it was, than i'd like to know. and please, please don't think i was in any way trying to excuse kobe for his actions. I wasn't and if I came off like that, please let me know. and if you think i could have presented my points in a better manner, again, please let me know. thanks!

 

Thanks for the detailed analysis. 



#26 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 12:09 PM

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Please keep it and the discussion coming!

 

I hope to have a draft finished sometime this summer. When I do, you guys will be the first to see it to offer me some additional feedback.



#27 Adam

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 01:04 PM

can anyone confirm the details of the rape case as i mentioned? was it something more? soemthing less? what i said it was?



#28 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 28, 2018 - 10:29 PM

can anyone confirm the details of the rape case as i mentioned? was it something more? soemthing less? what i said it was?

 

There's enough information about it online, but obviously only 2 people know what actually happened.

 

You can start here: https://en.wikipedia...al_assault_case

 

The case isn't relevant to my article though. It's strictly basketball related. 



#29 kball

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 04:57 AM

Don't forget the head to head comparisons while kobe was playing


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Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#30 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 11:01 AM

Remember you’re comparing eras different rules opponents etc can’t be done logically and most are POM as Kobe’s greatness isn’t as recent to memory even MJ was not seen by most of today’s fans! Most are leaving out Kareem totally but he’s up there too! With Bron and Mamba you are comparing different positions played on the court as well just suffice it to say both were the greasiest of their eras!

Edited by DaSmoothOperator, June 29, 2018 - 11:52 AM.

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#31 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 11:33 AM

Don't forget the head to head comparisons while kobe was playing

 

I've looked into this. Kobe got the best of LeBron pre Heat for sure. He was one of the best in the league at guarding him (certainly on our team). Post 2010 though, the Heat handed us some beatdowns. It boiled down to who had the better team, more than their individual greatness. 

 

Kobe has some sick highlights on LeBron for sure though. This is one of my favorites:

 



#32 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 11:38 AM

Remember you’re comparing eras different rules opponents etc can’t be done logically and most are POM as Kobe’s greatness isn’t as recent to memory even MJ was not seen by most of today’s fans! Most are leaving out Kareem totally but he’s up there too! With Bron andManba you are comparing different positions played on the court as well just suffice it to say both were the greasiest of their eras!

 

100% Agreed. What's bothering me more than putting LeBron over Kobe is those saying Kobe doesn't even belong in the discussion. I've seen more and more people saying he wasn't even the best player in the league from 2003-2010! Guys like Garnett and Duncan have been put above him till 08, where they will then say James was the best player. 

 

It's just Laker hate combined with recency bias, which is why I am trying to put the stats in context and show Kobe's greatness. Anything you guys have to contribute in that aspect will help a lot. 

 

Some arguments I've been developing:

 

1. Advanced stats are useless without context

2. LeBron's stats inflated due to his system - where as the triangle offense deflated Kobe's assist totals

3. Difference between 45% and 50% shooting from the field is often times only 1 shot per game. 

4. Eastern conference has been significantly weaker during LeBron's tenure, allowing him to increase his finals appearances. 



#33 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 11:55 AM

Eastern Conference has been the weaker since Bird/Magic days count chips if you disagree but like it always does will shift back.

#34 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 12:18 PM

Eastern Conference has been the weaker since Bird/Magic days count chips if you disagree but like it always does will shift back.

 

I think this year was an excellent example. He deserves credit for playing out of his mind, but would the Cavs really have made it to the finals in the West. He scored 40 in the ECF by posting up a 6'2" Rozier. And this was the series that prompted everyone to call him the GOAT. When would Kobe ever see that type of pathetic coverage, especially in the post? 



#35 Adam

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 05:02 PM

Also talk about shift in eras/methodology

Kobe first decade was hero ball. Then transitioned to pace and space. Midrange is dead or close to it.

Maybe someone can correct me, but we see a lot more hack-a-poor free throw shooter. Used to be all Shaq back then?? And let the superstar eat and choke the rest of the team? Has anyone noticed that strategy employed more or less recently??

Also different cultures. Most stars have an entire team set up now to take care of their bodies. The science has really advanced. Don’t think that was as big back then?


I think this year was an excellent example. He deserves credit for playing out of his mind, but would the Cavs really have made it to the finals in the West. He scored 40 in the ECF by posting up a 6'2" Rozier. And this was the series that prompted everyone to call him the GOAT. When would Kobe ever see that type of pathetic coverage, especially in the post?



#36 Adam

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 05:05 PM

When engaging in an GOAT discussion, I think many people don’t have clear criteria. Kind of like the mvp award. Best player on less talented team? Or best player on best team?

So when saying LeBron or Kobe for GOAT or even with people not including Kobe at all, what criteria are they using?

Elevating their team? Their teammates? Individual talent? Ability to score? Defend? Pass? Rebound? Etc

Look at Devin booker. Dude can light up the scoreboard but he’s not really the best defender. Gets Kobe comparisons all the time. People forget Kobe was first team all nba defense many years...but booker can light it up.
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#37 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 29, 2018 - 08:55 PM

When engaging in an GOAT discussion, I think many people don’t have clear criteria. Kind of like the mvp award. Best player on less talented team? Or best player on best team?

So when saying LeBron or Kobe for GOAT or even with people not including Kobe at all, what criteria are they using?

Elevating their team? Their teammates? Individual talent? Ability to score? Defend? Pass? Rebound? Etc

Look at Devin booker. Dude can light up the scoreboard but he’s not really the best defender. Gets Kobe comparisons all the time. People forget Kobe was first team all nba defense many years...but booker can light it up.

 

Good point, for me its a mixture of everything. Skill, awards, championships, etc. I obviously can't weight each one numerically, so it's subjective for sure. I place the most weight on rings since in the end, that's what every player is trying to achieve (or the one's who end up making it to any all time list, anyways).



#38 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 30, 2018 - 12:21 AM

Some more arguments I've been working on:

 

LeBron actually doesn't make his teammates better. In fact I think he may make them worse. Consider what happened to Dwyane Wade, Tristan Thomspon, JR Smith, Kevin Love, etc. One year they were all essential pieces to a championship roster, the next year they suddenly became "trash"? Whereas with Kobe, every player he played with post Shaq besides Gasol and Ariza could not stay in the NBA for much longer after they left the Lakers. That includes Bynum, Walton, Fisher, Odom, Farmar, Vujacic, Mihm, Parker (lol), Radmonovic, Cook, etc... He made them look so much better than they were because of his gravity pulling defenders towards him, even when he didn't have the ball. I have some explanations for why this is the case, but I'm still working on it. 
 
In fact that ties into another argument I am planning to make. Nobody in the history of the NBA other than Shaq has seen the defensive attention Kobe has. He's the only player I've ever seen doubled on the weakside perimeter (i.e. when he doesn't even have the ball on the opposite side of the court). I look at the single coverage LeBron got in the Celtics series with smaller guys and only wish a team did that to Kobe. He would have lit them up for 60.
 
Still clipping plays for all of this stuff. Going to be a while before I get a draft out for you guys to see. 

Edited by bfc1125roy, June 30, 2018 - 12:23 AM.

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#39 kball

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Posted June 30, 2018 - 10:26 AM

FWIW

Just watched the 30th anniversary edition of Lakers beating pistons in 88.

James Worthy and Isiah Thomas providing commentary.

 

Good watch.

 

Both call KAJ the GOAT during that telecast.

Currently airing on NBA TV


Excited for  1. Lebron! (Still love me some Kobe, but damn this guy is amazing) 2. Another big get (Whether in FA or in a trade we need some attractions and closers) 3. Young Guys making big jump (Assuming we have anyone left after more necessary moves either genius ones or in desperation)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#40 bfc1125roy

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Posted June 30, 2018 - 05:38 PM

FWIW

Just watched the 30th anniversary edition of Lakers beating pistons in 88.

James Worthy and Isiah Thomas providing commentary.

 

Good watch.

 

Both call KAJ the GOAT during that telecast.

Currently airing on NBA TV

 

Kareem wins longevity hands down. I don't think anyone will touch him in that department unless they're 7'3" with incredible lower body strength and posses and equally deadly sky hook







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