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Assumed starters would work even better with Lonzo - Wrong


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#61 Jackson

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Posted October 07, 2017 - 03:17 PM

Based on preseason so far, it's increasingly looking like the DLo trade will be one of the worst moves Magic has ever made.


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#62 kball

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Posted October 07, 2017 - 03:47 PM

I'm certain Kuzma would still have been on the board at #28 when evaluating the Net's roster.  They likely would have prioritized drafting a guard in my opinion if they hadn't acquired Russell.

Lonzo, Russell, Ingram, Kuzma, and a big would have been something very fun to watch.  Decent amount of speed at the two forward positions, better perimeter spacing, and another player whom can create his own shot/for others.  The Russell/Ball combo will always be something I wish I could have witnessed considering their games would have meshed quite well.

 

It's evident that Lonzo needs capable shooters and scorers around him, Lopez will help, but Russell would have been nice long term.

Good thing we got that covered.

Oh wait...


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Praying for  1. Some Cohesion (Ill fitting parts with young bucks, new guys, and those playing for next contracts may muck things up all season) 2. Better Coaching, No More Tanking (Last season was more of the latter but not sure how much of the former we can count on. Walton with something to prove this season as much as any Laker player) 3. Rookie Watch (Hoping Lonzo outshines his daddy (ROTY??), and Kuzma finds minutes and makes a push for all rook 2nd team)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#63 LakeShow1o1

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Posted October 07, 2017 - 05:40 PM

Based on preseason so far, it's increasingly looking like the DLo trade will be one of the worst moves Magic has ever made.

 

Was never a fan of the trade but I think the trade in itself was primarily due to the fact that Magic and Pelinka simply want to go all in for the 2018 season.  Therefore we won't really be able to judge how this all turns out until the time comes.  It will also depend upon just how great of a player Russell turns out being. 

 

There's still a chance he simply becomes an above average combo guard at best, but it still would have been fun to have 2 homegrown products as our cornerstone players in the backcourt for years to come.

 

What's funny is alot of fans knocked Russell for his lack of killer instinct and go-to-scorer mentality.  With Lonzo, he seems to rarely, if ever look to score and drive.  As a point guard in the big leagues, until you get defenses on their feet, begin penetrating towards the basket, and looking for your own shots, you'll be limited.

 

It's still very early but Lonzo has got to begin looking for his own looks in order to open up looks for others.  The amazing outlet passes and easy fastbreak buckets came in Summer League, but it won't nearly be as easy at this level.



#64 bigvee

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Posted October 07, 2017 - 06:17 PM

Based on preseason so far, it's increasingly looking like the DLo trade will be one of the worst moves Magic has ever made.

 
Huh? Based on preseason D"Angelo went 4-14 last game including 1-7 from 3 with 3 turnovers on only 2 assists in a game his team won by 18. 


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#65 bigvee

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Posted October 07, 2017 - 06:26 PM

We're gonna suck this season. It's no secret. We won't come close to winning 40 - let alone the playoffs. There are 12 teams that are much better than we are in the West.

 

This team simply doesn't have guys to help up be a good defensive team. We were the worst defensive team for two season in a row and that's not gonna change by much. We might hit the 25-29 mark defensively but that's not really going to translate to many more wins.

 

With that being said, this team should be fun to watch sometimes and grueling to watch most of the rest of the time. 

 

All we need to do as a unit is make a stride large enough to entice Paul George and at least one more guy to come aboard. It seems like I'm always wrong about what LeBron will do but let me be the thousandth person to say he ain't comin' 

 

What I'm going to be looking closest at is our effort level. We don't have the talent to be a top team or anywhere close to that - we simply are too young to be able to play defense well. With that being said, I fully expect the effort level to be at 110% (unlike how it is during preseason). If the effort level is not there - it's time to seriously start evaluating Luke and our key guys. 

 

We have no incentive to tank and there are at least 4 other teams who will be trying their hardest to tank. There is no reason we should be the worst defensively and there is no reason why we should get blown out night after night. 



#66 last stand 2.0

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Posted October 07, 2017 - 06:36 PM

Based on preseason so far, it's increasingly looking like the DLo trade will be one of the worst moves Magic has ever made.


Lol what? I love Russell, I see a 20ppg guy in him but relax. Ball looks like something special at PG I've seen nothing but great things from him in summer league and the preseason. The way he sees the floor is out of this world

And while Russell could've been a nice running mate in the backcourt I trust that there was a fit issue more than just 2018. I mean first of all you'd be looking at probably the worst defensive backcourt in basketball. I mean people forget that klay Thompson is quite the defender which helps GS a lot.

Also klay is a free agent in 2019 and I think he's probably leaving and I wouldn't be surprised if the lakers are where he goes

And besides the point you cannot make any sort of judgement on a deal like the Russell deal until you see what happens going forward. There's a lot of basketball to be played and a lot of time ahead.
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#67 LACAS

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Posted October 08, 2017 - 08:04 AM

F' DLO!


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#68 Jody Smokes

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Posted October 08, 2017 - 08:49 AM

Lonzo has great vision but he's done nothing vs NBA level defenders yet and he hasn't exactly looked good in preseason either.  

 

I think it's also time to stop thinking about future free agent classes.  What leads anyone to believe Klay is trying to sign in LA in 2019?

 

Lol what? I love Russell, I see a 20ppg guy in him but relax. Ball looks like something special at PG I've seen nothing but great things from him in summer league and the preseason. The way he sees the floor is out of this world

And while Russell could've been a nice running mate in the backcourt I trust that there was a fit issue more than just 2018. I mean first of all you'd be looking at probably the worst defensive backcourt in basketball. I mean people forget that klay Thompson is quite the defender which helps GS a lot.

Also klay is a free agent in 2019 and I think he's probably leaving and I wouldn't be surprised if the lakers are where he goes

And besides the point you cannot make any sort of judgement on a deal like the Russell deal until you see what happens going forward. There's a lot of basketball to be played and a lot of time ahead.


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#69 Adam

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Posted October 08, 2017 - 11:40 AM

My two cents on the Russel/Mozgov for Lopez + pick trade:

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I understand, if we didn't make the trade, then our starting lineup would have been: Lonzo, Russel, Ingram, Randle/Kuzma, Mozgov. If we have Russel, then we probably don't sign KCP. Who do we spend that 18 million on then? Also, consider we would have to unload Mozgov and Deng's contract before the trade deadline or at the beginning of free agency to create the necessary cap space to chase two max free agents. The longer we wait to unload those two contracts, the more leverage we lose.

 

Instead of the above happening this is the reality I see:

Lonzo - KCP - Ingram - Randle/Kuzma - Lopez. I have little faith in a Lonzo - Russel backcourt defensively. At least KCP's average or above average defense is better than Russel's below average defense. Lopez can stretch the floor which gives Randle more space. All together it's just a better fit.

 

What would you gamble on? Russel becoming an All-Star caliber player in the next two years or the Lakers signing one to three marquee free agents in the next two years? If you gamble on Russel, you don't make the trade. If you gamble on signing one to three marquee free agents in the next two years, you make the trade.

 

I liked Russel a lot. Yeah he snitched, but Young did cheat on his fiance. So they're both losers as far as I'm concerned. I don't really care about what happens off the court (unless it's like domestic violence level of bad - won't tolerate that), I care about what happens on the court. Russel has potential. We can't ignore that. But ten times out of ten, I trade him and gamble on signing a superstar. Trading Russel isn't so much a knock against him as it is the need to make space and get rid of Mozgov's contract. Taking Kuzma with the pick from the trade just makes it better.

 

tl:dr; Brook Lopez + 27th pick + approximately 20 million in cap space >>> Russell + Mozgov


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#70 Jody Smokes

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Posted October 08, 2017 - 04:59 PM

We saw Kyrie/JR Smith backcourt get to the Finals.  I think we need to stop overthinking defense at the 1 and 2 position.  


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#71 last stand 2.0

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Posted October 08, 2017 - 05:04 PM

We saw Kyrie/JR Smith backcourt get to the Finals. I think we need to stop overthinking defense at the 1 and 2 position.


Kyrie being an elite nba scorer playing on a team with lebron James. I wouldn't make that the barometer
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#72 Jody Smokes

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Posted October 08, 2017 - 05:28 PM

The team wasn't exactly terrible on defense either.  All Im saying is Im not worried about a backcourt of Ball/DLo if my alternative player to one of them isn't an elite one.  KCP isn't elite at anything.  He's about as average an NBA player as you can get.  

 

Kyrie being an elite nba scorer playing on a team with lebron James. I wouldn't make that the barometer


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#73 kball

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Posted October 09, 2017 - 03:11 AM

The team wasn't exactly terrible on defense either.  All Im saying is Im not worried about a backcourt of Ball/DLo if my alternative player to one of them isn't an elite one.  KCP isn't elite at anything.  He's about as average an NBA player as you can get.  

Well when the rest of the team with the exception of Brook is well below average...


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Praying for  1. Some Cohesion (Ill fitting parts with young bucks, new guys, and those playing for next contracts may muck things up all season) 2. Better Coaching, No More Tanking (Last season was more of the latter but not sure how much of the former we can count on. Walton with something to prove this season as much as any Laker player) 3. Rookie Watch (Hoping Lonzo outshines his daddy (ROTY??), and Kuzma finds minutes and makes a push for all rook 2nd team)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#74 LakeShow1o1

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Posted October 09, 2017 - 11:55 AM

We saw Kyrie/JR Smith backcourt get to the Finals.  I think we need to stop overthinking defense at the 1 and 2 position.  

Individual defense at both the guard positions is probably one of the most overrated topics that some fans on this forum constantly reiterate, it makes no sense.

 

In this era of basketball, with such a talented field of point guards, ain't nobody staying in front of their man one-on-one.  Even the best perimeter defender at the 1 position in John Wall won't be able to contain guys like Westbrook, IT, Harden, Lilard, etc. on a nightly basis.

 

What should be discussed is team defense, making the proper rotations, and helping the helper.  The Lakers are poor at all of those but it seems as though fans want to isolate a single culprit to blame.  

 

Russell wasn't a good defender by any means, but if you watched Laker basketball last season, he was actually probably one of our better perimeter defenders.  It doesn't say much considering our roster, but point is he isn't nearly as bad as some want to advertise.  Clarkson's defense is much more suspect and even Lonzo right now is a much poorer defender than Russell was.


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#75 Bishop*

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Posted October 10, 2017 - 08:48 AM

I think I'll simplify it for you brochacho:

 

The Lakers offensive sets are too complex for them and cherry picking doesn't work in the NBA. 

 

How many of those summer league points, and UCLA, and Chino Hills, came from an immediate outlet pass out to someone streaking down court? The conditioning of the players in the league is so good they can exert a full effort on offense and still sprint back down defensively. So No Lavar, the solution isn't more cherry picking.

 

I know that anything more than drawing a double team and kicking it out to an open man is too much for Lonzo to handle right now, but if all your running is that exact same play every time, every NBA team from the beginning of the season will adjust to it. 

 

The biggest thing they need to remember is to attack the rim, close out screens don't just stand there, and to stop hoisting up contested 3s as the shot clock is running down. I am so tired of seeing that [expletive]. Their better off letting the shot clock run out. Take it to the [expletive]ing rim, all of you.

 

Very much on point. Exactly my observation.  If you make a player who is good with the ball in his hand give up the ball right after he passes the half court line there is very little he can do. I think Luke is try trying to get the system in place with the pre-season games and will let them go out and play once the season starts. 



#76 GCMD

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Posted October 10, 2017 - 09:24 AM

Individual defense at both the guard positions is probably one of the most overrated topics that some fans on this forum constantly reiterate, it makes no sense.

 

In this era of basketball, with such a talented field of point guards, ain't nobody staying in front of their man one-on-one.  Even the best perimeter defender at the 1 position in John Wall won't be able to contain guys like Westbrook, IT, Harden, Lilard, etc. on a nightly basis.

 

What should be discussed is team defense, making the proper rotations, and helping the helper.  The Lakers are poor at all of those but it seems as though fans want to isolate a single culprit to blame.  

 

Russell wasn't a good defender by any means, but if you watched Laker basketball last season, he was actually probably one of our better perimeter defenders.  It doesn't say much considering our roster, but point is he isn't nearly as bad as some want to advertise.  Clarkson's defense is much more suspect and even Lonzo right now is a much poorer defender than Russell was.

 

 

He was also just as guilty as Randle at losing focus and playing too much for HIS shot.

 

Let's not try to boil this DLo issue down to defense.  There were other reasons he was not the answer and better NOT on this team.  Same thing will happen with Randle.  When he's gone, he will look better BECAUSE he's in a new situation.  Does that mean we should have kept him?  No...because what's best for him is the opposite direction the team is going and he's not talented enough to justify changing the entire composition of the roster and coaching staff.

 

Not every player belongs on every team.  DMC is undeniably a Star...but that doesn't translate to wins on every team.  Same with Melo and a host of other players.  We have to stop repudiating the past like there was something different that would have changed the outcome.  Russell was a poor fit, below average athlete, below average defender, struggled to get to the rim and struggled to make his teammates better outside creating/taking his own shot.

 

Nothing he does in Brooklyn will change who he was for us.  

 

You guys wanted Luke.  Now we must change our expectations and roster to suit what Luke wants.  Deal with it.

 

I wanted Messina.  He could have taken chicken squat and made chicken salad meaning he would have adjusted his entire offense to his personnel.  Luke is a brand new coach who simply doesn't have the street cred or experience to do the same.

 

 

Lakers fans have to start dealing with things as they are and stop making up excuses for why you don't have what you want.  Russell need to be gone because of MULTIPLE reasons, not just defense.  To try to reach back and rehash this particular "what if" undermines everything we are trying to build moving forward.


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#77 last stand 2.0

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Posted October 10, 2017 - 09:32 AM

I know the popular thing right now is start kuzma for ingram. But if you're gonna start kuzma for Ingram you lose all defense in the starting 5. For all Ingrams struggles he's still our best perimeter defender

I think if you start kuzma it has to be at the 4. Also I think Randle off the bench makes more sense. If you start kuzma

Lopez
Kuzma
Ingram
KCP
Ball

I think you suddenly move better and more efficiently. I think the offense has more pop to it. I mean suddenly the lanes are wide open and the perimeter is a threat.

Then off the bench

Bogut/zubac
Randle
Deng
Hart
Clarkson

I'd still like to see Randle and/or clarkson traded for cap relief but when you look around the league there isn't much of that around lol. Or maybe even clarkson and nance for cap relief like derek favors or something.
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#78 GCMD

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Posted October 10, 2017 - 09:32 AM

Was never a fan of the trade but I think the trade in itself was primarily due to the fact that Magic and Pelinka simply want to go all in for the 2018 season.  Therefore we won't really be able to judge how this all turns out until the time comes.  It will also depend upon just how great of a player Russell turns out being. 

 

There's still a chance he simply becomes an above average combo guard at best, but it still would have been fun to have 2 homegrown products as our cornerstone players in the backcourt for years to come.

 

What's funny is alot of fans knocked Russell for his lack of killer instinct and go-to-scorer mentality.  With Lonzo, he seems to rarely, if ever look to score and drive.  As a point guard in the big leagues, until you get defenses on their feet, begin penetrating towards the basket, and looking for your own shots, you'll be limited.

 

It's still very early but Lonzo has got to begin looking for his own looks in order to open up looks for others.  The amazing outlet passes and easy fastbreak buckets came in Summer League, but it won't nearly be as easy at this level.

 

That's categorically untrue.

 

Literally NO ONE thinks Russell didn't try to be a go-to scorer nor does anyone think he didn't try to have that killer instinct.  The problem was that he lacked the ability to lead the team into any semblance of cohesion as a lead guard, not his individual deficiencies as a scorer.

 

We would all have traded in 5ppg from Russell for 3apg more with the team operating as a unit with him orchestrating a more dynamic offense.  That's the style of play Luke preaches and that's the style of play Russell needed but Lonzo excels.

 

Please stop trying to re-invent history.  It undermines valid points you may have.


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#79 GCMD

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Posted October 10, 2017 - 09:40 AM

I know the popular thing right now is start kuzma for ingram. But if you're gonna start kuzma for Ingram you lose all defense in the starting 5. For all Ingrams struggles he's still our best perimeter defender

I think if you start kuzma it has to be at the 4. Also I think Randle off the bench makes more sense. If you start kuzma

Lopez
Kuzma
Ingram
KCP
Ball

I think you suddenly move better and more efficiently. I think the offense has more pop to it. I mean suddenly the lanes are wide open and the perimeter is a threat.

Then off the bench

Bogut/zubac
Randle
Deng
Hart
Clarkson

I'd still like to see Randle and/or clarkson traded for cap relief but when you look around the league there isn't much of that around lol. Or maybe even clarkson and nance for cap relief like derek favors or something.

 

I agree with the Kuzma/Randle swap in the starting lineup but it doesn't help us longterm.

 

IMHO, Kuzma should not start until we sort out what we are going to do with Randle or Ingram.  One of them has to be moved and Randle makes more sense because he's a threat to the 2018 Cap Space.  If moving Ingram means we move Deng, so be it.  Opens the door to keep Randle (assuming you've also move Clarkson) with a Kuzma/Randle, 3/4-tandem being a legit option...but again, that assumes you still have room for PG13 in 2018.

 

So for now, no way I'm benching either RANDLE or Ingram.  They HAVE to get their trade values up.  Kuzma's time will come...but we should NOT prioritize Kuzma's minutes over continued evolution of our roster.  Benching EITHER Randle or Ingram limits our options going forward.


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#80 DanishLakerFan

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Posted October 10, 2017 - 10:31 AM

I agree with the Kuzma/Randle swap in the starting lineup but it doesn't help us longterm.

 

IMHO, Kuzma should not start until we sort out what we are going to do with Randle or Ingram.  One of them has to be moved and Randle makes more sense because he's a threat to the 2018 Cap Space.  If moving Ingram means we move Deng, so be it.  Opens the door to keep Randle (assuming you've also move Clarkson) with a Kuzma/Randle, 3/4-tandem being a legit option...but again, that assumes you still have room for PG13 in 2018.

 

So for now, no way I'm benching either RANDLE or Ingram.  They HAVE to get their trade values up.  Kuzma's time will come...but we should NOT prioritize Kuzma's minutes over continued evolution of our roster.  Benching EITHER Randle or Ingram limits our options going forward.

 

For once i actually agree with you :)

 

Ingram should start imo with Kuzma getting 25-30 mins at the backup 3 and 4 spot, which is a lot. With the emergence of Kuzma i think the one casualty could be Larry Nance.






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