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Assumed starters would work even better with Lonzo - Wrong


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#1 kray28

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 02:06 PM

There are some valuable basketball lessons to be learned from what we are witnessing from this year's Lakers. Valuable information with regards to team chemistry and how some talent complements itself and naturally meshes, and how sometimes it does the exact opposite. When you introduce a dynamic playmaker like Lonzo Ball to a new team and he immediately acts as a catalyst and makes everyone seem better - it becomes easy to assume that if you put Lonzo on a team with even better talent, NBA starting level talent, and that team will also become that much better. 

 

Not so. 

 

What worked at UCLA and also in Summer League was that Lonzo had a bunch of catch and shoot guys around him who knew their roles. They let Lonzo make the plays and set them up, and then hit wide open shots. Ironically, one of the Summer League guys who didn't is here in training camp (Vander Blue).Later in Summer League, Blue calmed down a bit and played within the offense and did much better. 

 

The Lakers starters are in a similar position as Blue in Summer League. They aren't taking advantage of Lonzo setting them up...instead they are ball stopping and trying to ISO in halfcourt, which is what they're used to doing. The biggest offenders are Randle, Ingram, Deng, and to some extent Clarkson. These guys need to learn how to play through Lonzo, and to some extent, Lonzo needs to start reining them in.


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#2 Jackson

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 04:00 PM

It's no secret that Lonzo Ball's abilities will be limited if he does not have solid talent around him that can produce on a daily basis. Ball has the power/gift to push offenses into a whole different level (similar to Nash and J-Kidd) if he had guys who can play. You pair Ball with a bunch of scrubs, he will look bad.


Edited by Jackson, October 03, 2017 - 04:02 PM.


#3 last stand 2.0

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 04:04 PM

It's no secret that Lonzo Ball's abilities will be limited if he does not have solid talent around him that can produce on a daily basis. Ball has the power/gift to push offenses into a whole different level (similar to Nash and J-Kidd) if he had guys who can play. You pair Ball with a bunch of scrubs, he will look bad.


Disagree. He just needs guys who move quickly without the ball and make quick decisions and can shoot. For example a lineup of

Lopez
Kuzma
Ingram
KCP
Ball

Probably utilizes his abilities best. Arguably clarkson in place of KCP but I think KCP is a better player overall
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#4 bigvee

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 04:16 PM

We haven't see our best offensive player yet (Brook), so settle down a bit before making sweeping generalizations about our offense. 

 

You need a shooter at either the 4 or the 5 in today's league if you want to keep up with the fast pace offenses. You simply can't play Randle at the 4 without a 5 that can spread the floor. Even if Randle has developed his shot, he still and probably will always prefer taking his defender off the dribble. Having Brook lets him and Ingram do that. With Zu or Larry or even Bogut on the floor, those guys have no room to operate.

 

Also we have probably the worst set of screen setters in NBA history. Seriously, Randle and Larry and Zu come off a brush screen EVERY single time. It's infuriating. Lonzo and Clarkson and the rest of the ball handlers are given zero room to operate. I'm hoping Bogut teaches these dudes how to set a real screen


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#5 Jackson

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 04:24 PM

We haven't see our best offensive player yet (Brook), so settle down a bit before making sweeping generalizations about our offense. 

 

You need a shooter at either the 4 or the 5 in today's league if you want to keep up with the fast pace offenses. You simply can't play Randle at the 4 without a 5 that can spread the floor. Even if Randle has developed his shot, he still and probably will always prefer taking his defender off the dribble. Having Brook lets him and Ingram do that. With Zu or Larry or even Bogut on the floor, those guys have no room to operate.

 

Also we have probably the worst set of screen setters in NBA history. Seriously, Randle and Larry and Zu come off a brush screen EVERY single time. It's infuriating. Lonzo and Clarkson and the rest of the ball handlers are given zero room to operate. I'm hoping Bogut teaches these dudes how to set a real screen

We should get used to this current offense considering Brook Lopez's injury history.


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#6 bigvee

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 05:28 PM

We should get used to this current offense considering Brook Lopez's injury history.

 

Do you even know who Brook is? He's played more games the last 3 years than LeBron. Would you say the same for the Cavs because of LeBron's injury history?

 

C'mon man do your research before saying something untrue. 

 

Brook has played 72+ Games in 5 out of 7 seasons including 75 last season.

 

He's only missed more than 10 games TWICE in his career.


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#7 Jackson

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 05:51 PM

Do you even know who Brook is? He's played more games the last 3 years than LeBron. Would you say the same for the Cavs because of LeBron's injury history?

 

C'mon man do your research before saying something untrue. 

 

Brook has played 72+ Games in 5 out of 7 seasons including 75 last season.

 

He's only missed more than 10 games TWICE in his career.

Bruh Brook missed practically 2 seasons because of foot injuries. LeBron never missed 2 whole seasons. I give him props that he's been able to stay healthy but let's not act as if Brook Lopez, a big man, has zero injury history. Especially when it was foot injuries. Big men with lower leg injuries are always a question mark, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Brook Lopez will have injury troubles this season.


Edited by Jackson, October 03, 2017 - 05:51 PM.


#8 kray28

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 06:30 PM

It's no secret that Lonzo Ball's abilities will be limited if he does not have solid talent around him that can produce on a daily basis. Ball has the power/gift to push offenses into a whole different level (similar to Nash and J-Kidd) if he had guys who can play. You pair Ball with a bunch of scrubs, he will look bad.

 

Ironically pairing him with a bunch of scrubs (the Summer League team) worked well. The scrubs knew their role and did their jobs well. They made quick decisions in the offense (shot if they were open, passed if they weren't, and ran hard when Lonzo pushed the ball). The starters don't know how to play like this. 


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#9 LakeShow1o1

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 10:20 PM

Ironically pairing him with a bunch of scrubs (the Summer League team) worked well. The scrubs knew their role and did their jobs well. They made quick decisions in the offense (shot if they were open, passed if they weren't, and ran hard when Lonzo pushed the ball). The starters don't know how to play like this. 

 

You're perspective on this given topic is tremendously flawed.

 

Comparing his success in Summer League in comparison to now has nothing to do with the players he's being surrounded with but moreso to do with the players in which he is going against.  Only 2-3 guys on Summer League rosters even make it onto an actual 15 man roster.  The defense is much better and it's not as easy to get simple outlet passes that result in an easy bucket in transition.

 

It's obvious that Lonzo would do better with more talent surrounding him, that's a no brainer.  With a player like him, you need to surround him with shooters.  At the moment, we simply don't have that much firepower.  Until KCP and Ingram find consistency in their jump shots and Brook Lopez returns, it will be difficult for Lonzo to operate.



#10 Artest37

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 10:33 PM

Ball and Julius is like mixing Chocolate ice cream with onions ... they just don’t go together.
The offense just deflates as soon as Julius touches the ball.


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#11 DanishLakerFan

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Posted October 03, 2017 - 10:39 PM

There clearly is an issue with shooting - on two fronts:

1. They often go with lineups that include two non-shooting big men, whether it's Nance-Randle, Nance-Zubac or Randle-Zubac, which doesn't make much sense. Whether these guys actually can shoot or not is a different conversation but the fact of the matter is that they aren't really taking shots. Much of this will solve itself once Lopez comes back, but until then they should make sure to have a shooter on the floor. Another option is to tell these guys to start taking 3s to see if their work over the summer paid off.

 

2. The back-court has been missing shots as well. The main guys - Ball, KCP, Clarkson, Ingram - went 2-13 against the Nuggets and 3-17 against the T-Wolves. We wont keep shooting that poorly and i’m sure KCP and Clarkson will hit their usual shooting numbers and we just have to hope Lonzo and Ingram will improve, which they probably will.


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#12 BasketballIQ

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 12:33 AM

I think ultimately
Ball
KCP
Ingram
Randle
Brook

Will rightfully be the starting group. I know these first 2 games aren't indicative of how we will play ultimately.

The team was in prove it mode. When they truly embrace the pass like in Summer League we will be better than the sum of our parts.
Ennis/Hart
Clarkson
Kuzma/Brewer
Nance/Kuzma/Deng
Bogut/Zubac/Nance

I think the possibilities for this team are still high.


I wouldn't mind Ingram off the bench next game for Kuz at the 3
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#13 Saber

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 01:14 AM

Lonzo will average 15 assists if guys like Ingram and Randle shoot the ball better. The problem I have with Lonzo is as I call it his overpassing. He's literaly looking to pass every single time he brings the ball up or gets the ball in mid court. He's a great passer I get it, but there are a lot of occasions where he makes bad passes when in the mean time he has the opportunity to drive inside and collapse the defense. Lonzo's passing is not his only good ability, he's very athletic and he should attack the basket more. He'll be an even greater threat when he starts doing it. Because this pass first/pass only mentality is pretty predictable and experienced players will figure his game out easily.


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#14 nikolatesla

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 02:39 AM

His tendancy for over-passing will help him a great deal in the long run. He will learn from the mistakes he makes now. I think his vision will let him CP3-like stats, because he has also shown his capability for scoring. Don't expect him to be like Kendall Marshall. If he can be lethal like CP3 in late game situations, i wouldn't ask more out of him.

 

About our stretching problem: i don't think that a guy like Walton is not aware of the problem. He knows 2 bigs that opts to drive or pass every open 3 will not simply be successful. But their flaws are exposed more because of the abysmal shooting of our guards. And we have one of the best 3pt shooting big statistically. So my point is this is just an experiment phase for Walton, until he has all the players he wants. 

 

Ennis/Hart
Clarkson
Kuzma/Brewer
Nance/Kuzma/Deng
Bogut/Zubac/Nance

 

This bench is... dangerous!



#15 bigvee

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 04:56 AM

Bruh Brook missed practically 2 seasons because of foot injuries. LeBron never missed 2 whole seasons. I give him props that he's been able to stay healthy but let's not act as if Brook Lopez, a big man, has zero injury history. Especially when it was foot injuries. Big men with lower leg injuries are always a question mark, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Brook Lopez will have injury troubles this season.


Nah I'm not buying that at all. You don't just randomly say that about a guy who's played 72+ in 3 straight seasons and he's on a contract year. The foot injury has obviously no meaning here if he's been good for 3 damn seasons straight.
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#16 LACAS

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 05:10 AM

Its PRESEASON LOL.

 

Although its very premature its not rocket science to understand that in order to maximize Lonzo he needs shooters; Ingram and KCP will eventually start to knock them down which will help. 

 

Getting Lopez on the floor will help more than many think.

 

And lastly although its only preseason, I believe Kuz should be plugged in at PF.

 

If/when BI and KCP start knocking them down, Lopez on the floor and Kuz at PF things will flow & look much better.



#17 kball

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 05:26 AM

Feel the lakers should be bold tonight v denver and start Kuzma in place of Randle.

 

Next game in place of Ingram

 

NOTE: You guys are still brutal on Randle. 


Edited by kball, October 04, 2017 - 05:27 AM.

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Praying for  1. Some Cohesion (Ill fitting parts with young bucks, new guys, and those playing for next contracts may muck things up all season) 2. Better Coaching, No More Tanking (Last season was more of the latter but not sure how much of the former we can count on. Walton with something to prove this season as much as any Laker player) 3. Rookie Watch (Hoping Lonzo outshines his daddy (ROTY??), and Kuzma finds minutes and makes a push for all rook 2nd team)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#18 Jody Smokes

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 06:14 AM

Randle hasn't been terrible but his fit is still an issue.  If anything Ingram is the one that needs to be swapped out.  Try Kuzma at the 3 then.  They keep forcing this Ingram is our future star stuff but I aint seeing it yet. 


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#19 kball

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 06:24 AM

I don't mind forcing Ingram a bit.

We aint close to playoff level, so why not hang minutes on the guy?

 

I will say Kuzma gets points easier (and in more ways) than anyone else on team so far.

 

Thats why i want to see him in place of both 3 and 4 to see where he fits best


Praying for  1. Some Cohesion (Ill fitting parts with young bucks, new guys, and those playing for next contracts may muck things up all season) 2. Better Coaching, No More Tanking (Last season was more of the latter but not sure how much of the former we can count on. Walton with something to prove this season as much as any Laker player) 3. Rookie Watch (Hoping Lonzo outshines his daddy (ROTY??), and Kuzma finds minutes and makes a push for all rook 2nd team)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 


#20 kball

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Posted October 04, 2017 - 06:39 AM

Spectrum said KCP missing first 2 regular season games.

Was he suspended?

 

Anyone know why he's missing them if not?


Praying for  1. Some Cohesion (Ill fitting parts with young bucks, new guys, and those playing for next contracts may muck things up all season) 2. Better Coaching, No More Tanking (Last season was more of the latter but not sure how much of the former we can count on. Walton with something to prove this season as much as any Laker player) 3. Rookie Watch (Hoping Lonzo outshines his daddy (ROTY??), and Kuzma finds minutes and makes a push for all rook 2nd team)

READY FOR SEASON!!!

 

 





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