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#2321 GCMD

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Posted January 08, 2019 - 06:53 PM

GCMD

You make a statement, then argue that the ramifications of your initial claim can't be used as a debate point. You want to only debate the actual statement made and nothing that comes along with that statement had it become a reality. That's not how debates work.

I'm not going to argue if Ball could average 10-12 assists a game without acknowledging what that means for the team.

If you want to state that Lonzo could average 10-12 assists on a garbage lottery team than thats fine although that still can't be proven statistically. But simply stating that Lonzo could average 10-12 assists without any context is silly and likely intentionally misleading on your behalf.

You can post as many youtube videos as your heart desires but Lonzo Ball's factual statistics suggest that he'd turn the ball over at an alarming rate if he averaged 10 assists a game. Removing Lebron, instantly makes this team much worse. Even without Rondo and Bron, Lonzo hasn't come close to averaging 10 assists per game. At no point in his career has he consistently put up the assist totals necessary to average 10 apg.

 

You can't force me to predict something I didn't predict.

 

You can't force me to discuss something I didn't bring up.

 

I made a clear statement.  I made a claim that I could make a case that Lonzo could average 10-12 assists.  I made no other claims.

 

 

 

 

I have already conceded that if we didn't have LeBron/Rondo, we wouldn't be as good...why won't you concede that Lonzo could average 10-12 apg?  I'm not arguing against your statements.  You're the only one arguing.



#2322 KidRN

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Posted January 08, 2019 - 09:41 PM

You can't force me to predict something I didn't predict.

You can't force me to discuss something I didn't bring up.

I made a clear statement. I made a claim that I could make a case that Lonzo could average 10-12 assists. I made no other claims.




I have already conceded that if we didn't have LeBron/Rondo, we wouldn't be as good...why won't you concede that Lonzo could average 10-12 apg? I'm not arguing against your statements. You're the only one arguing.

I didn't force you to predict anything. If you make a claim, any claim, the ramifications of that claim are certainly up for debate. This is how debates work and this is how this forum has worked forever.

If I say we should trade for Kawhi. Everyone will start to discuss how the roster is impacted and whether or not we would be a better team. My statement said nothing about our roster or if we'd improve, so are those topics off limits?

This is silly. You are obviously intelligent but your entire debate style is based on deflection and setting ridiculous parameters which makes it extremely difficult to have a rational discussion with you.

Agree to disagree.

I'm cool with moving on from this discussion

Lonzo is currently proving your claim false anyway. He just played damn near 40 minutes without Bron and Rondo and still didn't lead the team in assists or even get close to 10.

Lonzo doesn't need 10 assists a game. He needs to be aggressive, hit his open 3's, and continue playing good defense.

Edited by KidRN, January 08, 2019 - 10:02 PM.


#2323 lakerfan98

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Posted January 09, 2019 - 09:52 AM

Please continue....my mind is still blown from this Lonzo Ball and Jason Kidd are separate human beings theory.
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#2324 Massacre

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Posted January 15, 2019 - 10:53 PM



#2325 KidRN

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Posted January 15, 2019 - 11:34 PM

Lonzo needs to play like that with Bron on the court.
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#2326 GCMD

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 12:06 AM

Please continue....my mind is still blown from this Lonzo Ball and Jason Kidd are separate human beings theory.

 

I'm still amazed that people don't get that.  Separate Human beings doesn't mean they can't resemble each other when they play.

 

I'd love to hear the excuse for Kobe vs MJ...separate human beings but Kobe OBVIOUSLY patterned his game after MJ.

 

 

Doesn't mean they were the same player or that Kobe wasn't better than MJ at certain things and vice versa.

 

Kid takes his bashing of Lonzo way too far.  Conceding the guy is good at something doesn't mean you're claiming he is EQUAL to a HOFer.  Comparing their stats or career at the same stage also doesn't mean they are equal.  Just a way to converse.

 

 

And this idea that if you're not scoring, you're not elite?  I hate that.  I love the SPORT of basketball.  People who only care about guys who can score watch for entertainment.  That's cool but it's like looking at a black and white painting and calling it trash because "it doesn't have colors".

 

 

For me, the teamwork and passing that leads to easy scoring is INFINITELY more entertaining than scoring 1-on-1.  That's why my favorite player growing up was Magic, not MJ...

 

 

That's real basketball...another player I loved watching play?  Jason Williams

 

 

To me, that's basketball.  Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Price, KJ, even LeBron, Webber, Divac...good passers.  I can remember when passing stats were just as prestigious as scoring stats (some times, more).  I feel sorry for people who can't appreciate good passing, teamwork and ball movement.  There are a few things I want Lonzo to change...becoming a good scorer?  Not on the list.



#2327 GCMD

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 12:22 AM

Lonzo needs to play like that with Bron on the court.

 

No...he really doesn't.  We need to acquire an attack guard.  We don't need to force Lonzo to become one.  We really have to learn from the past.  Ingram is suffering right now because he's trying to be something he's not.

 

Lonzo needs to get FT reps in and work on perfecting his floater.  If we are relying on Lonzo to be our top scorer, we're in trouble and rightfully so.  That's not who he is.


Edited by GCMD, January 16, 2019 - 12:23 AM.


#2328 KidRN

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 01:52 AM

I'm still amazed that people don't get that.  Separate Human beings doesn't mean they can't resemble each other when they play.
 
I'd love to hear the excuse for Kobe vs MJ...separate human beings but Kobe OBVIOUSLY patterned his game after MJ.
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=v27Hk5OIe-k
 
Doesn't mean they were the same player or that Kobe wasn't better than MJ at certain things and vice versa.
 
Kid takes his bashing of Lonzo way too far.  Conceding the guy is good at something doesn't mean you're claiming he is EQUAL to a HOFer.  Comparing their stats or career at the same stage also doesn't mean they are equal.  Just a way to converse.
 
 
And this idea that if you're not scoring, you're not elite?  I hate that.  I love the SPORT of basketball.  People who only care about guys who can score watch for entertainment.  That's cool but it's like looking at a black and white painting and calling it trash because "it doesn't have colors".
 
 
For me, the teamwork and passing that leads to easy scoring is INFINITELY more entertaining than scoring 1-on-1.  That's why my favorite player growing up was Magic, not MJ...
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
 
That's real basketball...another player I loved watching play?  Jason Williams
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=jglwB7il8r4
 
To me, that's basketball.  Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Price, KJ, even LeBron, Webber, Divac...good passers.  I can remember when passing stats were just as prestigious as scoring stats (some times, more).  I feel sorry for people who can't appreciate good passing, teamwork and ball movement.  There are a few things I want Lonzo to change...becoming a good scorer?  Not on the list.

I have never stated that Lonzo wasn't a good passer. You didn't simply say Lonzo was good at something, you stated that he could lead the league in assists.

I dont only like scorers. I prefer pass first point guards and I always have.

There is a difference between having the ability to score and being a scorer. Nash could score, CP3 can score. I never said Lonzo needed to be a scorer but he does need to prove that he has the ability to score.

As far as the Kobe and MJ comparison goes, I look at it the same way that I did the Kidd/Ball comparison. Regardless of how similarly they play, I would never make the claim that Kobe could do something simply because MJ could. That doesn't make any sense.

No...he really doesn't.  We need to acquire an attack guard.  We don't need to force Lonzo to become one.  We really have to learn from the past.  Ingram is suffering right now because he's trying to be something he's not.
 
Lonzo needs to get FT reps in and work on perfecting his floater.  If we are relying on Lonzo to be our top scorer, we're in trouble and rightfully so.  That's not who he is.

What are you talking about? Nobody has ever stated that Ball needs to be a top scorer. He needs to be aggressive and take it to the rim when possible. Just like every other nba player. I'm not sure why you believe that Lonzo doesn't need to exhibit any scoring ability at all.

#2329 noknife

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 07:31 AM

I have never stated that Lonzo wasn't a good passer. You didn't simply say Lonzo was good at something, you stated that he could lead the league in assists.

I dont only like scorers. I prefer pass first point guards and I always have.

There is a difference between having the ability to score and being a scorer. Nash could score, CP3 can score. I never said Lonzo needed to be a scorer but he does need to prove that he has the ability to score.

As far as the Kobe and MJ comparison goes, I look at it the same way that I did the Kidd/Ball comparison. Regardless of how similarly they play, I would never make the claim that Kobe could do something simply because MJ could. That doesn't make any sense.

What are you talking about? Nobody has ever stated that Ball needs to be a top scorer. He needs to be aggressive and take it to the rim when possible. Just like every other nba player. I'm not sure why you believe that Lonzo doesn't need to exhibit any scoring ability at all.


If you aren’t going to be aggressive and a threat to score then your ceiling is around Ricky Rubio which doesn’t warrant a number 2 pick. Lonzo needs to at least be a threat which means that while he doesn’t need to be a score first player he does need to be respected by the defense and he NEEDS To make free throws if he wants to play crunch time.
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#2330 LACAS

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 08:06 AM

Lonzo needs to at least be a threat which means that while he doesn’t need to be a score first player he does need to be respected by the defense and he NEEDS To make free throws if he wants to play crunch time.

 

100%



#2331 BORNINLA

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 10:09 AM

Lonzo needs to adjust because we all know Lebron wont.  Lebon is ISO, bull rush, kick out.  



#2332 GCMD

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Posted January 16, 2019 - 10:37 PM

If you aren’t going to be aggressive and a threat to score then your ceiling is around Ricky Rubio which doesn’t warrant a number 2 pick. Lonzo needs to at least be a threat which means that while he doesn’t need to be a score first player he does need to be respected by the defense and he NEEDS To make free throws if he wants to play crunch time.

 

There is a difference between being a threat to score and being unnaturally aggressive.

 

Lonzo is in year 2.  Can he become more EFFICIENT scoring?  Yes.  Will he ever be an elite scorer?  No.

 

And Jason Kidd wasn't a score-first player, ever.  Neither was Nash.  Nash even said he regretted not taking more shots because he was often the best shooter on the floor.  Both are HOF or FHOF.

 

Rubio's issues don't come from not being a threat to score.  Rubio came into the league unable to shoot and not being very athletic.  Lonzo can shoot from the outside AND is more athletic than Kidd and Nash.  No chance Rubio is his ceiling even if he isn't aggressive scoring.


Edited by GCMD, January 16, 2019 - 10:39 PM.


#2333 Persian Gulf

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Posted January 18, 2019 - 08:02 AM

The more aggressive he is, the better he plays. The offense should go through him some or most of the time.

His confidence on his 3s are really high and he has to finish his dunks. I know he can poster some players in this league.
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#2334 RobBlake

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Posted January 18, 2019 - 11:56 AM

The more aggressive he is, the better he plays. The offense should go through him some or most of the time.

His confidence on his 3s are really high and he has to finish his dunks. I know he can poster some players in this league.

I honestly see more potential in Ball than ingram because his skillset is pretty damn unique. I think we gotta keep kuz and ball and let them cultivate into stars.


Edited by RobBlake, January 18, 2019 - 11:56 AM.

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#2335 Persian Gulf

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Posted January 18, 2019 - 08:09 PM

I honestly see more potential in Ball than ingram because his skillset is pretty damn unique. I think we gotta keep kuz and ball and let them cultivate into stars.

yep, as someone said it in the game threat, ingram is our iggy. he might go off but having lonzo and kuzma dropping 20 points is good enough.. obv with bron in the line up 



#2336 GCMD

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Posted January 19, 2019 - 09:38 PM

I honestly see more potential in Ball than ingram because his skillset is pretty damn unique. I think we gotta keep kuz and ball and let them cultivate into stars.

 

Lonzo has something you can't teach - elite court vision, passing and basketball IQ.  In the right situation, Lonzo is as important to this team as anyone outside of LeBron.  Defensively?  Lonzo's our best defender.  The way Kuzma and Lonzo play together is great for our future.


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#2337 Persian Gulf

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Posted January 19, 2019 - 09:56 PM

the news on the street came out his x rays were negative. so thats good.

 

the way he was playing was stellar !


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#2338 ArabicMamba

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Posted January 20, 2019 - 01:23 AM

oh man really shocked last night

 

hope he does not miss a lot of games


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#2339 GCMD

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Posted January 20, 2019 - 10:59 AM

oh man really shocked last night

 

hope he does not miss a lot of games

 

 

2 Weeks to be cautious.  3-6 games, most likely.  If it's worse than a grade 1, he may get shutdown until after the AllStar Break...


Edited by GCMD, January 20, 2019 - 11:00 AM.


#2340 ArabicMamba

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Posted January 20, 2019 - 12:36 PM

2 Weeks to be cautious.  3-6 games, most likely.  If it's worse than a grade 1, he may get shutdown until after the AllStar Break...

oh no


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