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#1581 GCMD

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Posted June 24, 2018 - 06:03 PM

Not right for his body type, IMHO.



#1582 Tensai

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Posted February 27, 2019 - 10:39 PM

Post-ASB Ingram: 27.8 ppg 7.5 rpg 3 apg on 56.7 FG% 74.4 FT% and 1.5 3pm


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#1583 Massacre

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Posted February 27, 2019 - 11:44 PM

Post-ASB Ingram: 27.8 ppg 7.5 rpg 3 apg on 56.7 FG% 74.4 FT% and 1.5 3pm


What’s his VORP?

#1584 BORNINLA

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 11:32 AM

The way Ingram is playing right now, I see no reason to trade him.  I was wrong about him.  What he needs is a good coach who can show him how to play without the ball.



#1585 Jackson

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 11:47 AM

What’s his VORP?

And his WARP while we're at it



#1586 last stand 2.0

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 11:56 AM

He’s coming into his own a tad

Would like to see if this continues, if it does I’ll hop back on the bandwagon

Still don’t like the iso but I’ll say that effectiveness is effectiveness and if he’s effective he’s effective

Has to be consistent, spurts and sparks aren’t enough for him anymore

However this has absolutely been his longest and most vivid spark he’s shown
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#1587 Japago

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 12:47 PM

What’s his VORP?


I know you're being sarcastic, but it's -0.4. It's tied for 470th.

Just saying advanced stats shouldn't be ignored. VORP isn't the only one that thinks very poorly of him. There are guys who have put up box score stats who never really impacted games. Relying on box score stats alone isn't really how players are looked at nowadays.

#1588 Massacre

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 01:29 PM

I know you're being sarcastic, but it's -0.4. It's tied for 470th.

Just saying advanced stats shouldn't be ignored. VORP isn't the only one that thinks very poorly of him. There are guys who have put up box score stats who never really impacted games. Relying on box score stats alone isn't really how players are looked at nowadays.


They shouldn’t be ignored but they’re not the end all be all.

Watching the games and his overall progression through the season...it’s clear he’s impacting the games at a level he hasn’t done so in his career. Advanced stats can be misleading and they’ve rarely favored iso guys and mid-range players. Kobe’s career VORP is barely top 20, not going to bother looking up the exact placement. His poor assist/turnover ratio also doesn’t help and neither did his slow start.

He’s hitting his usual post-ASB surge and is beginning to master the things he is good at. Look for him to expand his game more next season and finally add that 3-point shot.

Not here for any more outright BI slander. He’s coming into his own.

#1589 Jody Smokes

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 01:59 PM

I’m still trying to figure out why certain Lakers fans believe Tatum and Brown, especially Tatum is a better player than Ingram. Can’t figure that out based on what I’ve seen from all ***shrug[expletive]

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#1590 Japago

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 02:05 PM

They shouldn’t be ignored but they’re not the end all be all.

Watching the games and his overall progression through the season...it’s clear he’s impacting the games at a level he hasn’t done so in his career. Advanced stats can be misleading and they’ve rarely favored iso guys and mid-range players. Kobe’s career VORP is barely top 20, not going to bother looking up the exact placement. His poor assist/turnover ratio also doesn’t help and neither did his slow start.

He’s hitting his usual post-ASB surge and is beginning to master the things he is good at. Look for him to expand his game more next season and finally add that 3-point shot.

Not here for any more outright BI slander. He’s coming into his own.

 

There's a difference between stats slightly undervaluing players, and stats outright raising red flags. These stats are saying Ingram is awful. And again, it's not just VORP.

 

I think he's a better version of who he has been. But, I don't think his game is going to make a star-level difference . Not with his ball stopping, lack of off-ball play, no play-making, and no outside shooting. I think his defense is overrated, which advanced stats also indicate. It's just the best of a bad bunch right now.


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#1591 bfc1125roy

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 02:06 PM

VORP isn't the best advanced stat out there - I mean Vucevic's VORP is higher than LeBron's, for example. But we do know BI has had the tendency to be a ball stopping player in favor of ISO situations. However, the last 2 games I've seen him play better within the flow of the offense. Those 2 games were against poor defensive teams though, so let's hope he continues to improve on that front as we make this playoff push.



#1592 KidRN

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 03:10 PM

VORP isn't the best advanced stat out there - I mean Vucevic's VORP is higher than LeBron's, for example. But we do know BI has had the tendency to be a ball stopping player in favor of ISO situations. However, the last 2 games I've seen him play better within the flow of the offense. Those 2 games were against poor defensive teams though, so let's hope he continues to improve on that front as we make this playoff push.

VORP is actually considered one of the better advanced stats. It produces far less outliers than most advanced stats.

#1593 BasketballIQ

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 03:22 PM

Joakim Noah better than Kyrie and Anthony Davis according to VORP

#1594 bfc1125roy

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 04:19 PM

VORP is actually considered one of the better advanced stats. It produces far less outliers than most advanced stats.

 

I'd respectfully disagree. A stat is a stat, but the way people use it to rank player ability/effectiveness is misguided.

 

VORP = [BPM – (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82).

 

So it's essentially derived off BPM. BPM is a complicated statistic, but it's calculated from a Bayesian regression of other advanced stats.

 

Raw BPM = a*ReMPG + b*ORB% + c*DRB% + d*STL% + e*BLK% + f*AST% - g*USG%*TO% + h*USG%*(1-TO%)*[2*(TS% - TmTS%) + i*AST% + j*(3PAr - Lg3PAr) - k] + l*sqrt(AST%*TRB%)

 

Essentially, BPM isn't adding any new information other than what's in the box scores (because the advanced stats its based on are just derived from the basic box score numbers). Somebody slapped some fancy methodology on it and gave it a name, but the underlying stuff its measuring is just the basic box score data we know is VERY limited in scope. It's not giving you any new information - no matter how you manipulate the numbers.


Edited by bfc1125roy, February 28, 2019 - 04:21 PM.


#1595 Japago

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 05:59 PM

It's going to be hard to come up with any stats that don't use raw box score stats at some level. I like that advanced stats try to mitigate outside factors. I think they're better than just using raw box score stats without any factoring in anything else. And, I have yet to see an advanced stat that likes Ingram. RPM has him at 378. He's 191 in win shares.  You guys are using raw box score stats, so I think it's fine to use advanced stats to combat that.

 

As I've said, I don't think he's drastically better based on eye test either.



#1596 KidRN

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 11:26 PM

Joakim Noah better than Kyrie and Anthony Davis according to VORP

This is false. Im not sure where you got that information from but this is not true.

#1597 KidRN

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Posted February 28, 2019 - 11:31 PM

I'd respectfully disagree. A stat is a stat, but the way people use it to rank player ability/effectiveness is misguided.
 
VORP = [BPM – (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82).
 
So it's essentially derived off BPM. BPM is a complicated statistic, but it's calculated from a Bayesian regression of other advanced stats.
 
Raw BPM = a*ReMPG + b*ORB% + c*DRB% + d*STL% + e*BLK% + f*AST% - g*USG%*TO% + h*USG%*(1-TO%)*[2*(TS% - TmTS%) + i*AST% + j*(3PAr - Lg3PAr) - k] + l*sqrt(AST%*TRB%)
 
Essentially, BPM isn't adding any new information other than what's in the box scores (because the advanced stats its based on are just derived from the basic box score numbers). Somebody slapped some fancy methodology on it and gave it a name, but the underlying stuff its measuring is just the basic box score data we know is VERY limited in scope. It's not giving you any new information - no matter how you manipulate the numbers.

You disagree? That wasn't my opinion. It is one of the better advanced stats due to having a higher success rate of accurately ranking players more than most other advanced stats.

Of course it uses box score stats, what else would it use?

It actually does give you new data, all advanced stats do. They combine raw numbers to help seperate the players that positively impact their team and those thar that negatively impact their team. Raw box score stats are numbers without context.

#1598 bfc1125roy

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Posted March 01, 2019 - 01:21 AM

You disagree? That wasn't my opinion. It is one of the better advanced stats due to having a higher success rate of accurately ranking players more than most other advanced stats.

Of course it uses box score stats, what else would it use?

It actually does give you new data, all advanced stats do. They combine raw numbers to help seperate the players that positively impact their team and those thar that negatively impact their team. Raw box score stats are numbers without context.

 

When you say the following:

 

It is one of the better advanced stats due to having a higher success rate of accurately ranking players more than most other advanced stats.

 

 

That implies that there exists a ground truth 100% objective ranking of players. Otherwise you can't measure the accuracy of something if there's nothing to compare it against. But even if we take an average "eye test" as the ground truth, VORP doesn't perform too well. Here's a few violations

 

1. Jokic and Gobert better than Anthony Davis, Paul George, LeBron James, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Kawahi Leonard

2. Blake Griffin better than Kevin Durant

3. Nurkic better than Leonard

4. Steven Adams better than Joel Embiid

 

I can keep going, but it's FAR from robust. 

 

When you say: 

They combine raw numbers to help seperate the players that positively impact their team and those thar that negatively impact their team.

 

 

 

I posted the formula earlier. Nothing in the formula does what you say. It just adds up "positive" advance stats and subtracts "negative" ones. But what new information is being added? You just get players who perform well statistically in those categories that rank higher. No number or set of numbers can discern the positive impact a player has on the court. We know the problems +/- stats have. BPM is just a fancy version of that.

 

Furthermore, most of how a player has a positive or negative impact is intangible. Things like the defensive attention they attract, ability to rotate, reads, are all stuff that the statistics can't capture. It's foolish to suggest they can be used to rank players in any meaningful way. 


Edited by bfc1125roy, March 01, 2019 - 01:21 AM.


#1599 KidRN

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Posted March 01, 2019 - 05:22 AM

When you say the following:


That implies that there exists a ground truth 100% objective ranking of players. Otherwise you can't measure the accuracy of something if there's nothing to compare it against. But even if we take an average "eye test" as the ground truth, VORP doesn't perform too well. Here's a few violations

1. Jokic and Gobert better than Anthony Davis, Paul George, LeBron James, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Kawahi Leonard
2. Blake Griffin better than Kevin Durant
3. Nurkic better than Leonard
4. Steven Adams better than Joel Embiid

I can keep going, but it's FAR from robust.

When you say:

I posted the formula earlier. Nothing in the formula does what you say. It just adds up "positive" advance stats and subtracts "negative" ones. But what new information is being added? You just get players who perform well statistically in those categories that rank higher. No number or set of numbers can discern the positive impact a player has on the court. We know the problems +/- stats have. BPM is just a fancy version of that.

Furthermore, most of how a player has a positive or negative impact is intangible. Things like the defensive attention they attract, ability to rotate, reads, are all stuff that the statistics can't capture. It's foolish to suggest they can be used to rank players in any meaningful way.

Dude VORP is compared to the accuracy of other advanced statistics. As far as having crazy outliers, or players that have no business being anywhere near the top of the rankings, VORP is far more accurate than most other advanced statistics. Once again, that is not my opinion.

Jokic and Gobert are EXTREMELY good players. It is very possible that taking them off of their teams would result in more losses than if you take some of the players that you mentioned off of their respective teams. Those two might actually be accurate. None of the players you named are bums or huge outliers. I didn't say the stat was perfect but you're arguing the difference between a few spots rather than a player being depicted far better than they actually are.

Career VORP is also a much better way to rank players than single season VORP. Who do you think has the highest career VORP of all time? Lebron James, and second is Michael Jordan. Aren't those the two players people argue most for being the GOAT?

Combining raw stats using a formula does create a new way of looking at a players overall game. I'm not sure how you could even argue against that. That's the entire point of advanced statistics.

Are you suggesting raw statistics or the eye test is more accurate? What statistics are better than vorp to help rank players in a "meaningful way?"

These stats aren't really designed to be used by themselves either. A combination of multiple advanced stats generally helps to accurately depict a players impact on his team. I haven't seen a player that ranks high in multiple advanced but is actually garbage or vice versa.

Edited by KidRN, March 01, 2019 - 05:28 AM.


#1600 Tensai

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Posted March 01, 2019 - 06:44 AM

VORP as much accuracy as PPG.


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