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#1561 KidRN

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 02:41 AM

Off ball is much harder to learn. Most people grow up doing iso far more often because these nba players are generally much better than your average high school basketball players. Even players that struggle to get to the basket in the nba probably got to the rim at will in high school. Also you can learn to iso playing pick up games at the park, off ball has to be taught by a good coach in organized basketball.

99% of the time the best player on a high school team won't be playing off ball. Most people don't even play in a system with a bunch of off ball movement until they hit college.

Edited by KidRN, June 05, 2018 - 02:48 AM.

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#1562 DanishLakerFan

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 02:59 AM

Off ball is much harder to learn. Most people grow up doing iso far more often because these nba players are generally much better than your average high school basketball players. Even players that struggle to get to the basket in the nba probably got to the rim at will in high school. Also you can learn to iso playing pick up games at the park, off ball has to be taught by a good coach in organized basketball.

99% of the time the best player on a high school team won't be playing off ball. Most people don't even play in a system with a bunch of off ball movement until they hit college.

 

Whatever man. Given the choice between the guy that can get his own shot or get to the rack at will and a player that is good off the ball, i think i'll take my chances with the iso-player learning how to play off-ball, than the other way around.


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#1563 Massacre

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 05:26 AM

It’s not a fact that it’s more difficult to learn playing off-ball at the NBA level. These are just y’all’s opinions. Many would disagree. I have more confidence in Westbrook learning to be a good off-ball player than I do in JJ Redick or Kyle Korver becoming elite isolation scorers by playing pickup games or whatever.

Being a good iso player requires a much more elite set of skills. There’s a reason the best iso players (Harden, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, Steph, Giannis, Kyrie) are the top 5 players in the entire league.

Nearly all good off-ball players have a high motor and are great shooters. Steph Curry never stops moving. Ingram already has good timing with his cuts and knowing where to be, so there’s no reason to believe if or once his 3-pointer improves, he will be fine off the ball. Coaching and the system being run also plays a part in that. Right now, he’s best with the ball in his hands. If he’s coached to move off the ball and work on that part of his game it can improve. But it starts with being a good shooter and giving the defense a reason to prioritize chasing you without the ball. It’s no coincidence that all great off ball players today are the elite shooters.

#1564 KidRN

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 08:16 AM

It’s not a fact that it’s more difficult to learn playing off-ball at the NBA level. These are just y’all’s opinions. Many would disagree. I have more confidence in Westbrook learning to be a good off-ball player than I do in JJ Redick or Kyle Korver becoming elite isolation scorers by playing pickup games or whatever.
Being a good iso player requires a much more elite set of skills. There’s a reason the best iso players (Harden, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, Steph, Giannis, Kyrie) are the top 5 players in the entire league.
Nearly all good off-ball players have a high motor and are great shooters. Steph Curry never stops moving. Ingram already has good timing with his cuts and knowing where to be, so there’s no reason to believe if or once his 3-pointer improves, he will be fine off the ball. Coaching and the system being run also plays a part in that. Right now, he’s best with the ball in his hands. If he’s coached to move off the ball and work on that part of his game it can improve. But it starts with being a good shooter and giving the defense a reason to prioritize chasing you without the ball. It’s no coincidence that all great off ball players today are the elite shooters.

I think it's safe to say that most players have a much better iso game than off ball game growing up. Learning to play off ball takes coaching, learning to iso doesn't. Compare the amount of good iso players vs good off ball players in high school and the numbers won't even be close because most people playing basketball never really have to learn how to play off ball in a real system until they hit the college level. Once you hit college, your iso skills are truly put to the test for the first time. If they aren't on par with the best than you have to learn to play off ball or fail.
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#1565 GCMD

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 08:16 AM

Whatever man. Given the choice between the guy that can get his own shot or get to the rack at will and a player that is good off the ball, i think i'll take my chances with the iso-player learning how to play off-ball, than the other way around.

 

That's a different conversation.  I claimed Ingram would be better, given his specific strengths and weaknesses, developing as an off-ball player.  Not only will it help him in the long-run, it will help him play off great ball-dominant players now...like the players we are considering this offseason.

 

Your preference isn't the same as "it's easy to learn".

 

It’s not a fact that it’s more difficult to learn playing off-ball at the NBA level. These are just y’all’s opinions. Many would disagree. I have more confidence in Westbrook learning to be a good off-ball player than I do in JJ Redick or Kyle Korver becoming elite isolation scorers by playing pickup games or whatever.

Being a good iso player requires a much more elite set of skills. There’s a reason the best iso players (Harden, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, Steph, Giannis, Kyrie) are the top 5 players in the entire league.

Nearly all good off-ball players have a high motor and are great shooters. Steph Curry never stops moving. Ingram already has good timing with his cuts and knowing where to be, so there’s no reason to believe if or once his 3-pointer improves, he will be fine off the ball. Coaching and the system being run also plays a part in that. Right now, he’s best with the ball in his hands. If he’s coached to move off the ball and work on that part of his game it can improve. But it starts with being a good shooter and giving the defense a reason to prioritize chasing you without the ball. It’s no coincidence that all great off ball players today are the elite shooters.

 

Seriously?

 

I was going to type out a long post about what it takes to learn how to play off the ball but I don't think it will matter.  This isn't an opinion.  It's a fact.  If you disagree, that's an indication of your experience (or lack thereof) playing organized basketball, not a debatable point of discussion.

 

Ingram has elite length and is an above average athlete.  His handles are a little above average.  His weight is WAY below average.  His shake and shiftiness is questionable.  He's not naturally aggressive.

 

None of that indicates "great ISO player".  If he plays to his strengths, he will focus on what's special about him and that's his length.  He can be an elite finisher as long as hi doesn't have to create against a set defense.

 

Let players develop into their best selves, not the player you want them to become.


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#1566 GCMD

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 08:30 AM

I think it's safe to say that most players have a much better iso game than off ball game growing up. Learning to play off ball takes coaching, learning to iso doesn't. Compare the amount of good iso players vs good off ball players in high school and the numbers won't even be close because most people playing basketball never really have to learn how to play off ball in a real system until they hit the college level. Once you hit college, your iso skills are truly put to the test for the first time. If they aren't on par with the best than you have to learn to play off ball or fail.

 

Isn't it crazy that you have to explain BASIC basketball tenants to people who claim to be basketball fans?

 

Off-ball requires timing between at least 3 people, discipline, footwork, basketball IQ and a high level of comprehension of the offensive philosophy of your team.

 

Learning the proper technique for curling, making sure your shoulder touches the screener's hip...

Learning how to properly execute a fade...

Learning how and when to slip a screen...

Learning when to cut backdoor...

Learning which foot to step with to PROPERLY shoot off a screen...

 

I could on and on for days.  Teaching young AAU players that stuff took weeks and weeks of drills just to be able to START teaching them how to play together and run a Motion Offense...

 

We all have opinions but I would think that when people act like they know something about basketball, they actually have KNOWLEDGE of basketball!  LOL.


Edited by GCMD, June 05, 2018 - 08:31 AM.

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#1567 lakerfan98

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 08:36 AM

I thought it was odd Kuzma talking about being in the weight room with Lonzo and Ingram being M.I.A.

 

Maybe he was misquoted and I'm sure Brandon is working hard wherever he is I just thought it was odd to mention that to reporters.  


Edited by lakerfan98, June 05, 2018 - 08:37 AM.


#1568 GCMD

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 08:46 AM

I thought it was odd Kuzma talking about being in the weight room with Lonzo and Ingram being M.I.A.

 

Maybe he was misquoted and I'm sure Brandon is working hard wherever he is I just thought it was odd to mention that to reporters.  

 

I thought I read Ingram was back in NC working out for the summer?

 

I wouldn't read too much into it but Ingram doesn't seem like the type to hang out.  Would it help with chemistry and team building/bonding if he spent more time in LA?  Sure...but to be honest, Ingram never acted like he was thrilled to be a Laker.  He's like Kawhi - not a lot of charisma or personality...the opposite of Showtime and Hollywood.


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#1569 Massacre

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 11:11 AM

Isn't it crazy that you have to explain BASIC basketball tenants to people who claim to be basketball fans?

Off-ball requires timing between at least 3 people, discipline, footwork, basketball IQ and a high level of comprehension of the offensive philosophy of your team.

Learning the proper technique for curling, making sure your shoulder touches the screener's hip...
Learning how to properly execute a fade...
Learning how and when to slip a screen...
Learning when to cut backdoor...
Learning which foot to step with to PROPERLY shoot off a screen...

I could on and on for days. Teaching young AAU players that stuff took weeks and weeks of drills just to be able to START teaching them how to play together and run a Motion Offense...

We all have opinions but I would think that when people act like they know something about basketball, they actually have KNOWLEDGE of basketball! LOL.

No offense but your experience of teaching/coaching/playing/whatever AAU players is nice, but this is the NBA. At THIS level, it’s incorrect to say it’s a “fact” that it’s harder to play off-ball. That’s your opinion, cool, but don’t compare the learning process of AAU players to grown men who are already in the top 1% of elite talent. They know this stuff already. It’s a matter of coaching, effort, gameplan, and skill refining. There is a reason there’s a significant greater amount of great off-ball players than great iso players.

I understand you wanna flex your AAU basketball experience or whatever, but if you really want to debate that it’s more difficult for an NBA player to learn when to cut back door as opposed to generating an efficient offensive possession vs. an elite defender, I’m not here for it.

Edited by Massacre, June 05, 2018 - 11:18 AM.

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#1570 Massacre

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 11:13 AM

I think it's safe to say that most players have a much better iso game than off ball game growing up. Learning to play off ball takes coaching, learning to iso doesn't. Compare the amount of good iso players vs good off ball players in high school and the numbers won't even be close because most people playing basketball never really have to learn how to play off ball in a real system until they hit the college level. Once you hit college, your iso skills are truly put to the test for the first time. If they aren't on par with the best than you have to learn to play off ball or fail.


I don’t care about high-school or college. I’m talking at the NBA level. If y’all really think it would be easier to make JJ Redick an iso player than make Westbrook a good off-ball player, then lol.
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#1571 FranklinPeanuts

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 11:19 AM

I don't read long post.. BUUT Redick as an ISO player. Whaaaaaaa?
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#1572 Massacre

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 11:27 AM

I don't read long post.. BUUT Redick as an ISO player. Whaaaaaaa?


Lol this reaction makes my entire point. Something that will never happen.

#1573 BasketballIQ

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 11:41 AM

Spurs had Rudy Gay playimg off ball successfully

#1574 DanishLakerFan

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 12:21 PM

That's a different conversation.  I claimed Ingram would be better, given his specific strengths and weaknesses, developing as an off-ball player.  Not only will it help him in the long-run, it will help him play off great ball-dominant players now...like the players we are considering this offseason.

 

Your preference isn't the same as "it's easy to learn".

 

I do think it's easy to learn. By easy i dont mean something you pick up reading a pamphlet, and it takes time and hard work for sure, but it's still a skill that can be acquired by putting in the work along with having some basic basketball IQ. Like you say - a trainer, a coach and hundreds or THOUSANDS of hours of game film + drills to become a great off-ball player. For a nba player that's what? A couple of seasons?


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#1575 LakeShow1o1

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 12:33 PM

Nothing is easy to learn, however if you have the right mindset and are placed in the proper situation/environment to thrive, then you'll eventually be able to build your game and adjust.

Based upon what I've seen, Luke's offense and the direction of this team will certainly require all players to become excellent off-ball.  Ingram is very much an iso-dominant player at the moment.  Much of his scoring and creation comes from pure isolation.  This is a great ability to have and in my opinion, his off-ball game will develop if and only if he becomes a perimeter threat.  Defenses right now still sag off a bit.  As you become a greater and more consistent threat from the perimeter, teams will play you differently and it'll change the entire dynamic of the offense, etc.

 

However, take in mind that playing off-ball is one thing, but having a playmaker to help orchestrate it is completely different.  Ingram hasn't really had the opportunity to play alongside a true playmaker.  Lonzo, as solid of a floor general and passer that he is, isn't exactly a playmaker just yet.  I think if you put a PG13, Lebron, or some type of proven star capable of creating, it will only elevate Ingram's game and we'll be able to see his true off-ball capabilities.  


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#1576 GCMD

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 06:29 PM

No offense but your experience of teaching/coaching/playing/whatever AAU players is nice, but this is the NBA. At THIS level, it’s incorrect to say it’s a “fact” that it’s harder to play off-ball. That’s your opinion, cool, but don’t compare the learning process of AAU players to grown men who are already in the top 1% of elite talent. They know this stuff already. It’s a matter of coaching, effort, gameplan, and skill refining. There is a reason there’s a significant greater amount of great off-ball players than great iso players.

I understand you wanna flex your AAU basketball experience or whatever, but if you really want to debate that it’s more difficult for an NBA player to learn when to cut back door as opposed to generating an efficient offensive possession vs. an elite defender, I’m not here for it.

 

 

Cool.

 

I respectfully request that if you want to disagree with my claim, please expect me to defend my position.

 

Some things are subjective.  Some are not.  This isn't a complicated concept.  I have been blessed to have had really good coaches and I've learned to coach under really good coaches.  I suspect even bad coaches wouldn't dispute this because this isn't about philosophy or experience. 

 

Are ISO players likely more individually talented?  YES...but learning those skills is about natural talent and work ethic.  Learning to play off-ball doesn't take as much talent but it is harder to perfect.

 

Think about how many moving parts in off-ball play.  Think about playing 1-on-1 ISO.  Which is harder?  That's not a trick question nor should we have to debate it.

 

You're right...this is the NBA...but the 2nd letter stands for BASKETBALL.  The fundamentals don't change much, just implementation of basic concepts and philosophies combined in a way to account for the increased talent level.  If you learn the basics and fundamentals in MIDDLE SCHOOL or HIGH School, they will still apply to the NBA.

 

The only way we are going to be able to have good debates as Lakers Fans is if we acknowledge that dissection and analysis of the game requires basic knowledge of the game.  If not, we will waste too much time with senseless arguments about things that should be common sense.

 

If I offended you, I apologize.  I hope we both have learned something from this discussion.


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#1577 BasketballIQ

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 07:10 PM

Sensitive posters.

#1578 GCMD

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Posted June 05, 2018 - 07:18 PM

I do think it's easy to learn. By easy i dont mean something you pick up reading a pamphlet, and it takes time and hard work for sure, but it's still a skill that can be acquired by putting in the work along with having some basic basketball IQ. Like you say - a trainer, a coach and hundreds or THOUSANDS of hours of game film + drills to become a great off-ball player. For a nba player that's what? A couple of seasons?

 

How many NBA players have the DISCIPLINE to work that hard in a TEAM concept?

 

Not only that, the NBA is pretty selfish.  If you're not putting up crazy numbers, you aren't considered a "star" and are not likely getting paid like a star.  It's MUCH easier to work hard for yourself than work hard to perfect skills that benefit the team.

 

Much harder to learn how to dominate one player than to do all of the little things it takes to be a good off-ball player.  The moves aren't more complicated but intellectually and physically, you have to be sharp and precise.  That takes a LOT LONGER than it takes to learn a set of offensive moves.

 

In fact, you don't need a LOT of moves to be a great ISO player.  You just need to be able to execute them properly.  Harden and D'Angelo Russell are GREAT EXAMPLES of players who aren't even great athletes but are adept at getting by their man 1-on-1.

 

Off-ball players have a much higher understanding of the game.  They play the game the right way.  Footwork, fundamentals, discipline, execution all combined.  That doesn't happen overnight.


Edited by GCMD, June 05, 2018 - 07:19 PM.

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