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Building Around A Dominant Post Player

Okafor Towns Free Agency Jimmy Butler

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#21 KidRN

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 07:21 AM

No proven NBA veteran at PF nor C can hurt Okafors growth. He needs that more then anything. Allowing these rookies to have bums to compeate against in practice & no tutelage from guys who have a niche & know the struggles & success of NBA is same reason why our player development has been pathetic for last several years.

The rookeis and young guys need the teaching from active players who have shown to be reliable for several years of production

Gasol would stop Okafor from playing starter minutes for probably 3-4 years. We can bring in more successful retired players and retired players that had a better post game than Gasol that can teach Okafor the game while he gains valuable experience from being a starter. The only thing Gasol would bring him is direct competition but we can find cheaper players and players willing to be a back up to do that.

Our development has been terrible? Who specifically are you talking about? We haven't had many young players with potential in the last decade or so. Clarkson looks pretty darn good and outside of him I can't really name any other young players that the Lakers have even attempted to develop.

Edited by kidpolean, June 22, 2015 - 07:23 AM.


#22 Bishop*

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 08:36 AM

Okafor might be "ok" as a rim protector, but i dont think he'll ever be "good" so instead we should focus on swarming the opposing team with wing defenders.

 

I think he is better than the media will want us to believe as a rim protector. I have seen footage of him moving very well defensively that makes me believe he was told to avoid fouls



#23 last stand 2.0

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 10:01 AM

Okafor is fine as a rim protector. It's the other stuff that he kind of sucks at. But that's fine because he's an amazing offensive big man and lengthy as well.

I think an NBA conditioning program will turn him into an above average defender

I see him as a curry, harden, pau gasol type player

A great offensive threat who does certain things well defensively and when locked in on that end is decent

The likelihood of him being a stud on both ends is highly unlikely. But the likelihood of him being a great offensive threat and decent defender is likely
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#24 NomisR

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 10:29 AM

Our development has been terrible? Who specifically are you talking about? We haven't had many young players with potential in the last decade or so. Clarkson looks pretty darn good and outside of him I can't really name any other young players that the Lakers have even attempted to develop.



Bynum..

#25 KidRN

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 10:42 AM

Bynum..

lol forgot about him...he was at one point considered the second best C in the NBA. He was just an injury prone headcase. I don't think it had anything to do with the Lakers not being able to develop players. The skill was there his mind wasn't.

#26 Majesty

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 10:50 AM

Dominant Wing
Dominant Post
One Shooter


Fill in the rest intelligently. But there's your blueprint.


If we draft Okafor and Clarkson became at least a 37% shooter from three we'd be golden. As well as everyone remaining healthy.

Edited by Majesty, June 22, 2015 - 10:51 AM.

"Bryant had come to rage against the idea that Howard's clownish disposition could overtake the locker room, the Lakers' culture, and had warned Howard that he would never, ever let it happen." 


#27 Majesty

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 10:52 AM

Bynum..


Bynum became an all-star under us and Kareem working with him despite being injury prone. What are you talking about?
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#28 GCMD

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 01:15 PM

Good discussion from almost everyone...I've seen a lot of intelligent answers, so you guys have been thinking about this too.

 

For me, it starts with direction...are we going to be a shooting team or a slashing team?  The first would rely on Okafor being a really good passer and the Lakers landing >37% 3pt shooters at almost every position outside of C.  The second would rely on the Lakers landing some elite athletes and a few glue guys who can pass and handle the ball and attack the rim at will while having a few strategically placed shooters for spacing...both are possible...

 

Truth is, people assume GSW won with a lot of shooters...they actually built their team the second way.  Almost every player in rotation for them was a decent but not great outside shooter...though they all moved well without the ball.  These were traits that they CAME THERE WITH, not something that was drilled into them.

 

Clarkson just has to get in the gym and work on his guard skills and shooting.  He's got a good feel for the game that isn't exactly floor general level yet but solidly in the realm of combo guard/scoring guard.  And he's an excellent athlete.  I could see him doing well next to Butler.  They would get us some really easy buckets in transition which would take a lot of pressure off Okafor and the halfcourt offense.  If he shoots above 37%, our back court would be set.

 

Butler would be PERFECT for a slashing team.  He fits the bill of a Iggy-type player.  Landing him would be huge for this offseason.  I've softened on my "no max" stance for him.  I still don't think he's a reliable 1st option but he'd fit in well with a dominant post player and would help shore up our perimeter defense while being unselfish.  With Butler and Clarkson working together, Kobe would have a lot less pressure to play big minutes and to take on an overwhelming role...maybe he plays 70+ games?

 

Ryan Kelly will be huge for us next to Okafor.  Low maintenance shooter who is also a smart player.  He passes well, moves without the ball and knows his role.  I could see him starting and being one of the strategically placed shooters.  He's got decent lateral quickness and is a decent defender in P&R.  Just have to make sure we help against much stronger post players...not that many so we're ok.

 

Randle could go 1 of 2 ways...either he comes off the bench like some of you suggested (probably the best thing if he stays) or he gets moved.  If he were to be moved for a draft pick, I'd go after either an anchor (WCS) or a glue-type PF (Trey Lyles).  Could we move Randle for the 5th pick?  Yes...he'd fit well into ORL's uptempo youth movement...that could get us WCS.  Could we move Randle for the 9th pick?  Yes, Charlotte would love to have Randle...period.  And we'd likely get their 2nd rnd pick too.

 

WCS would immediately add to our ability to slow the game down.  He's a long, versatile, athletic defender who can guard 1-5 legitimately and who changes shots.  It would allow every player in the backcourt to play more aggressively on the defensive end.  This would also lead to a lot of transition buckets.  Not only would Butler and Clarkson love to run the floor, they'd have a great chance to get outlets from those blocked shots.  With the more aggressive perimeter defense, they'd generate steals that would lead to transition buckets.  Good value for the team to have the ability to control the pace of the game on both ends of the court.

 

Trey Lyles is a Boris Diaw type player...long (6'10 - 7'3.5 wingspan), fluid athlete who is low maintenance on the offensive end.  High Basketball IQ.  Good passer.  He'd be a great glue guy...he fills the gaps and doesn't need plays ran for him.  He can hit the 3, handle the rock and rebound.  He's like Diaw and LO put together.  Could evolve into a great system player who feeds off the attention Okafor gets.  Opportunistic.  Would need to work on fundamentals on D but he's got all of the tools to be an excellent defender against small ball teams also.

 

Justin Anderson could be had in the draft and I'm sure we will try to land him but if we traded for the 9th/39th picks (Randle to CHAR), we'd have more assets to trade up...not sure the Lakers would trade 27/34th but if we could land the 39th and try to package the 27th/34th and Nick Young or Sacre (or both), we may just get up to the 19th (WAS), 20th (TOR) or 22nd pick (CHI).  WAS could use depth at SF because Pierce is on his way out.  TOR would like NY because they will likely lose Lou Will and G Vasquez this offseason.  CHI could view it as compensation for losing BUTLER to us this summer (LOL)...if we land him, he's a good guy to bring off the bench for this year and a possible starter at the 3 next year.

 

If we don't trade Randle,  Delon Wright  is a great player to have coming in...smart, great perimeter defender at the 1/2 and ready to play  now.  We could also look at bringing Robert Upshaw in with the 27th pick...high risk, ev en higher reward player.  Ideally, off the bench with Randle.  34th, we would bring in Tokoto as a Wes Johnson replacement.  Good defender and solid mechanics on his shot.  Would need to develop better handles and put on muscle but has elite athleticism and length to play/defend 2/3s.  If he puts in the time in the gy m, his shot will likely improve immensely...possible steal as a 3&D player in the 2nd rnd.

 

Of course, there's always a possibility that we land LMA instead of Butler...in that situation, moving up with the 27th/34th would be imperative.  We'd need a 3&D player coming in...but could also hope that Tokoto could be that player with some work on his shot.  Too bad we wouldn't know that before the draft...and since Butler wants to be in LA, I'd assume he's more likely, despite his RFA status.

 

 

Players we could bring back:  X Henry / K Marshall / W Ellington / J Lin / J Brown...

 

 

 

So here are some of the lineups I see:

 

2nd - Okafor, 27th - D Wright, 34th - Tokoto

 

Clarkson/D Wright/

Butler/Nick/

Kobe/X Henry/Tokoto

Kelly/Randle/

Okafor/Black/

 

2nd - Okafor, 27th - D Wright, 34th - Christmas

 

Clarkson/Marshall/

Butler/D Wright/

Kobe/Nick/

Kelly/Randle/

Okafor/Black/Christmas

 

Trade Randle for 5th pick (WCS), 27th - D Wright, 34th - Rakeem Christmas

 

Clarkson/D Wright/

Butler/W Ellington /

Kobe/X Henry/

WCS/Kelly/

Okafor/Black /Christmas

 

Trade Randle for 9th/39th pick (Lyles), Nick/27th/34th for 20th (Anderson), 39th - Christmas or Upshaw (if available)

 

Clarkson/Marshall /

Butler/W Ellington /

Kobe/Justin Anderson /

Trey Lyles/Kelly/Black

Okafor/Black/Christmas or Upshaw

 

LMA instead of Butler, 2nd - Okafor, 27th - Wright, 34th - Tokoto

 

Clarkson/Marshall /

Wright/Tokoto /

Kobe/Nick/

LMA/Randle/Kelly

Okafor/Black/

 

Of course, those lineups are just spitballs...just something to keep the discussion rolling.  At this point, I'm more concerned with having a clear direction for the team than any individual player.  I have another lineup that's possible but I won't even post hints because it is highly likely and very volatile...everything would have to break good for us and it would be more than adequate to get us to contender status very, very soon.


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#29 fido

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 01:18 PM

With a big you need shooters to spread the floor and clear the post.

 

PG: Clarkson /  ? / 34th pick

SG: Bryant (or Butler) / Ellington
SF: Bryant (or Carroll) / ? / 27th pick
PF: Randle / Davis
C: Okafor / Black / Sacre

 

I'm not counting Young or Kelly above because I just don't see how they aren't dealt somewhere in a package.

Butler will be a near impossible get as I can't see the Bulls letting him go unless you makje the contract so back loaded that they don't want to commit.  So if not Butler, then I throw money at DeMarre Carroll to fill the 3 and switch Kobe back to the 2.

Afflalo is also on a player option contrsact, I may make a run at him as well to see what he's looking to make.  Wade would be a possibility, but really nothing I would counton happening or helping all that much.

Belinelli is also unrestricted, although I have yet to see a Spur free agent bolt - but anything can happen.

Corey Brewer is also unsrestricted and wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilty.

This off-season is so hard to gauge because the Lakers could go one of 100 directions.  All I know is that any trade won't suprise me whatsoever.



#30 GCMD

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 02:40 PM

Justin Anderson is not likely at 27th...D Wright is...we'd have a better chance at Tokoto at 34th.  Rozier and Joe Young and Rozier are also PG options at 27th/34th respectively.  Too bad Qualls is out...he'd be another option at 34th for a perimeter defender.

 

If Butler and Rose had a good relationship, I'd say he was unlikely also but I don't think CHI keeps those 2 together if Butler makes a stink about being #1.

 

I doubt any of those mid level talents would leave their team without getting overpaid...why is that such an important thing for you?  Overpaying for players that aren't even going to put us in playoff position?


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#31 fido

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 02:46 PM

Important?  I don't recall saying it's important.  I was rattling off role players, and never mentioned how much you'd have to pay them.



#32 BasketballIQ

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 02:49 PM

that usually doesn't happen...but our team isn't ready to produce at a high level so I don't see your point. If we get Gasol than we are hurting Okafors growth and we still suck.

no we dont

 

Gasol gives us a chance every night

 

 

did eddie jones stop KB...lol



#33 fido

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 02:49 PM

Gasol ain't comin' - move on.



#34 GCMD

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 05:59 PM

Important?  I don't recall saying it's important.  I was rattling off role players, and never mentioned how much you'd have to pay them.

 

None of them would be worth max money but you are on record as saying we have to bring in someone this year no matter the cost.  And we'd have to overpay them to get them away from their team.

 

Overpaying midlevel talent may not be what you said but it's what would have to happen.  Everyone is trying to get paid and some of these players know that this offseason will be good to get a payday before the big boys fight over 30M max contracts in a few years...

 

And don't forget your declarations of how "cheap" these contracts will be once the cap rises next year...

 

Everyone keeps assuming the owners will continue to pay based on the current cap...and they forget that the owners will likely want to severely restrict the max slots or they will have ANOTHER lockout 2017 when they can opt out of the current CBA...which means those contracts that look like they will be "bargains" under the new TV Deal won't look so good after the owners cut that stuff back down...then you're stuck paying Dragic 19-20M/y in a contract that NO ONE will touch.


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#35 fido

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 06:09 PM

The Lakers do have to bring talent in this year because now you're one of few teams with money.  Next summer EVERYONE has money and the value of this beloved cap space takes a dip.

 

Yes, comparitively, they will be cheap. 

 

And back to the question, what is overpaying when you need something at just about every position?  When the Lakers are inthe positioun they are and as far from winning as they are, your money offer had better be irresisitable for free agents.  You can't sell players on promises, they'll want to see exactly what the game plan is.  This is something i've always said.

I fee like you're thinking you caught me in some circular talk, but really it's the same thing I've said all along.  You asked a question about who to bring in, I rwattled off the players.  This seems way off your original track.


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#36 GCMD

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 06:57 PM

The Lakers do have to bring talent in this year because now you're one of few teams with money.  Next summer EVERYONE has money and the value of this beloved cap space takes a dip.

 

Not just anyone though...that's where we differ.  If we don't land a player that works for us, spending money just to spend it doesn't make sense...

 

Yes, comparitively, they will be cheap. 

 

No, they won't.  2017, another lockout...owners will demand the max slot drops.  Those overblown max slots will look like very bad contracts.  And over the next 2 years, most max contracts will NOT be based on the new TV Deal numbers...they will be based on the PRE-TV Deal numbers...that means LeBron and Dragic could make the same amount...

 

Dragic and CP3 could make the same amount.

Deron Williams, Rudy Gay, Blake, Derrick Rose, Zach Randolph, Paul George, David Lee all could make the same amount as Dragic...

 

Does that still seem like a "bargain".

 

And back to the question, what is overpaying when you need something at just about every position?

 

Overpaying is paying more than a player is worth.  Simple...we don't have to spend the money if it doesn't help.

 

When the Lakers are inthe positioun they are and as far from winning as they are, your money offer had better be irresisitable for free agents.

 

You don't get more out a player by paying them more than they are worth.  That's desperate...FAs SHOULD take advantage of any team that operates like that.  All we need is ONE franchise player and Free Agents will play for less.

 

  You can't sell players on promises, they'll want to see exactly what the game plan is.  This is something i've always said.

 

You can't do ANYTHING by signing midlevel players to BAD CONTRACTS...all it does is restrict our spending potential in the future.

 

I fee like you're thinking you caught me in some circular talk, but really it's the same thing I've said all along.  You asked a question about who to bring in, I rwattled off the players.  This seems way off your original track.

 

I'm saying that the players you mentioned are not players that make this team appreciably better.  AND we couldn't bring them all in because they are likely going to want more than they are worth...

 

To strike out with good players?  Fine.

To overpay mediocre players out of fear of having nothing?  That's a waste of time...and to say that we have to be "irresistable" to free agents tells me everything I need to know about how you feel about paying these guys...and you can't say you wouldn't overpay them.


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#37 fido

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 07:45 PM

* Again, I didn't say ANYONE, I said someone.

* Yes, they will still be comparitively cheap, sorry numbers are still numbers and lower ones mean cheaper.

 

* Again, what is a player worth to a team?  Certain teams need or value other things highly and other things lower.  Overpaying is a collective term that really means you, personally, as a fan, are not happy with the contract, but the team may very well be.

 

* And that one franchise player doesn't come unless, again, you make them an offer that they can't resist.  You are hung up pon your concept of overpaying that doesn't apply to all players on all teams.

* You are taking this list I made in two mimutes as some be all end all.  These players are called, examples, I never said THIS IS WHO THE LAKERS NEED TO SUCCEED.  I never gave specific numbers.,  You asked what you need to build around a post player, I gase you some candidates, then said the problem is that the Lakers can go 100 directions this sumemr and it's imp0ossible to know where they'll go.

You are arguing for argument's sake here.  You're taking one thing or two things I said, applying another strain of logic over it then saying that I'm the one who said what you said.  I appreciate debate, but you can't take quick examples and a passing mention of their names as some specific plan.  Relax.

You are saying that I said to pay these mid-level guys crazy amount of money.  I NEVER gave a number, you have to stop thinking that I did.  The Lakers are on the bottom of the heap, they have years to go before they contend or win again.  Like it or not, that's where they are and they have to sweeten pots in order to lure players here.

For the last time, I gave a list of players, that's what I did, I don't know why you're making an issue out of something that isn't an issue.  I said sell players on promises because in a previous thread you said the Lakers should sell LaMarcus Aldridge on maybe having Durant in the future.  That's where that statement came from.  Maybe it was too veiled and I should've been more specific.  Either way, your response wasn't a rebuttal to that, it was simply you supposing I said something I did not.


Debate is one thing, but you are arguing to argue here.



#38 GCMD

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 08:11 PM

* Again, I didn't say ANYONE, I said someone.

 

You said we had to come out of this offseason with someone...we HAD to spend this offseason...

 

The players we've discussed aren't worth it...

 

* Yes, they will still be comparitively cheap, sorry numbers are still numbers and lower ones mean cheaper.

 

Cheaper is also 18M vs 19M...if 18M is Dragic and 19M is Rudy Gay or Deron Williams, Dragic is overpaid.

 

* Again, what is a player worth to a team?  Certain teams need or value other things highly and other things lower.  Overpaying is a collective term that really means you, personally, as a fan, are not happy with the contract, but the team may very well be.

 

You don't build a team based on desperation.  You build a team by using every asset wisely.  And overpaying isn't a collective term.  It's paying more than a player is worth...not just to you, to every team.  If he can't get that same amount from most teams, you are paying too much.  It's that simple.

 

Why are you pretending we should view our finances in a bubble separate from the rest of the league?

 

I guess you ASSUME we may NEVER want to trade that player?

 

Overpaying means we are stuck with that player...even if he doesn't work out and even if we change directions.  Why has that never occurred to you?

 

Are you assuming that any player we sign is a Laker-4-Life?  That's REAL bad business.

 

* And that one franchise player doesn't come unless, again, you make them an offer that they can't resist.  You are hung up pon your concept of overpaying that doesn't apply to all players on all teams.

 

I'm not opposed to maxing out franchise players...that's common sense...you want to max out Tobias Harris, DeMarre Carroll and Kris Middleton...why?  Because a max this year is nothing next year...except this max slot won't stay that way...lockout 2017 is coming and the owners will NOT continue to pay 30M max slots...no way.

 

What does that mean?  Harris/Carroll/Middleton will make the same amount as Anthony Davis...think you're trading them for AD?  Or trading them for comparable talent?  At a max slot?  Not.  That's doesn't make sense.

 

* You are taking this list I made in two mimutes as some be all end all.  These players are called, examples, I never said THIS IS WHO THE LAKERS NEED TO SUCCEED.  I never gave specific numbers.,  You asked what you need to build around a post player, I gase you some candidates, then said the problem is that the Lakers can go 100 directions this sumemr and it's imp0ossible to know where they'll go.

 

Fine...you never gave numbers.  Give numbers and let's see where this goes.

 

You are arguing for argument's sake here.  You're taking one thing or two things I said, applying another strain of logic over it then saying that I'm the one who said what you said.  I appreciate debate, but you can't take quick examples and a passing mention of their names as some specific plan.  Relax.

 

Wrong.  You are pretending what you said before doesn't apply here.  If I misunderstood what you meant, I apologize.  But you are still defending overpaying mid-level talent so I don't understand why you think we aren't talking about the same thing.

 

You are saying that I said to pay these mid-level guys crazy amount of money.  I NEVER gave a number, you have to stop thinking that I did.  The Lakers are on the bottom of the heap, they have years to go before they contend or win again.  Like it or not, that's where they are and they have to sweeten pots in order to lure players here.

 

You say "I didn't say that".  Then you say that in the next couple of sentences.  You want to say something and pretend its not the same thing...

 

I'm not trying to be obtuse...I really don't understand.

 

For the last time, I gave a list of players, that's what I did, I don't know why you're making an issue out of something that isn't an issue.  I said sell players on promises because in a previous thread you said the Lakers should sell LaMarcus Aldridge on maybe having Durant in the future.  That's where that statement came from.  Maybe it was too veiled and I should've been more specific.  Either way, your response wasn't a rebuttal to that, it was simply you supposing I said something I did not.

 

I wish that were the case.  You advocate overpaying players.  You list players you'd like the Lakers to go after...

 

You didn't specifically say to over pay these but this is your consistent stance.  I DID link the 2 together and that may be confusing for outsiders but you, as the author of your own statements in different threads, understand why.  This isn't out of left field...

 

Debate is one thing, but you are arguing to argue here.

 

No I'm not...is this only about this thread?  No...did I link earlier statements to these?  Yes.  Could that be confusing?  Yes.  But it wasn't to be obtuse or confrontational.


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#39 fido

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Posted June 22, 2015 - 09:45 PM

Once again, you're taking these suggestions as gospel.  I don't know why you are so damn hung up on that.  They are not absolute definites the Lakers should get.  That's assumption.  It's a list of suggestions, nothing more.  If you want to take it further there's no rebutting that.  You're making your own world with that.  And yes, I said someone.  HUGE differnece between SOMEONE and ANYONE.

Sweetening the pot could be a multitude of contract ideas, not just a hard and fast this much for this many years.  There's a ton of ways around things.  You know that.

 

You are consumed with the concept of overpaying without ever understanding that overpaying for one team doesn't mean overpaying to another.  It's not a blanket term.  Needs relate to money paid.  That is different for everyone.  Your assumptions are not mine, I say exactly what I mean, I'm not inferring anything about a Laker for life or anything like that.  You use a collective term for something that isn't collective - "overpaying".

Like it or not, a max contract now will not be as punishing as it seems in one simple year.  The Lakers have plenty of room to make a splash now, when it matters most.  Like I siad, next summer, everyone has money, the Lakers' cap space they are in love with means far less.  Somehow, you feel as if it doesn't I guess?

 

We are talking in circles here.  For some reason you're trying to stick it to me over a suggested list of available playters as if this is in stone or something.  I have yet to give specifics, but somehow you've extrapolated my suggestions as such.  This, I  don't get.  I can see you're taking a little pride here in trying to corner me for some reason, but it's not working.  I've never giv en a definitive list of players, only suggestions of ways they can go.  Again, you're taking those suggestions and stamping them as my absolute needs.  That is simply, flat out - wrong.

 

If you don't think you are, I'm sorry, but you are arguing for argument's sake here.


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#40 gque24

gque24

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Posted June 23, 2015 - 05:12 AM

I dont want to rely on a rookie playing starter mins in first place. He only needs spot mins until he gets accustomed to NBA style of play & finds his niche. 20 mins per gm is fine for first 2 years of development. no thanks for old retired players. these guys need to learn from current active players more so then Kareem. Id rather have LaMarcus than Gasol.

 

Yes development has been terrible. Clarkson had talent which was evident in preseason well before working under development coaches. LA roles players play stuipid basketball & have for several years over. They make same foolish mistakes especially of defensive end. Offense adjustments are not much better. rookies, young players, & role players never seem to take next step in elevating their game when  they get stuck on LA roster.

 

Guys like Clarkson, Tariq, Davis, Jordan = all they need is meaningful mins to produce via their niche. that didnt come from Lakers player development improvements

Gasol would stop Okafor from playing starter minutes for probably 3-4 years. We can bring in more successful retired players and retired players that had a better post game than Gasol that can teach Okafor the game while he gains valuable experience from being a starter. The only thing Gasol would bring him is direct competition but we can find cheaper players and players willing to be a back up to do that.

Our development has been terrible? Who specifically are you talking about? We haven't had many young players with potential in the last decade or so. Clarkson looks pretty darn good and outside of him I can't really name any other young players that the Lakers have even attempted to develop.


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