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Pau Gasol's overall rank in the league


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#21 ファイナルファンタジ

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:28 PM

15-20 maybe.

Nah even numbers suck dude. Either go for 15, 17, or 19. Maybe 21 if you're feeling it. But 20? That's almost as ridiculous as practice. You have to remember that these things will always be changing. But good job, let's go watch iCarly.

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#22 LD2k

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:28 PM

Top 15 for sure. Top 10 is debatable.

#23 lakerfool

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:29 PM

and the sudden spike in his FG% last year wasn't because of Kobe? his J was invisible last year with us. Also Gasol was 0-12 in the playoffs before he came here




Of course Gasol will improve when he came here. Kobe's efficiency improved as well. Your whole purpose in this thread is to downplay Pau to make Kobe look more important. Typical.


Pau is shooting about 4% more than his career average.

Kobe is shooting about 4% higher than when he was alone.

Both had prolific 1st round exits without a significant second option, with Kobe's team being a little bit worse, but Pau's team being very mediocre as well.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#24 MDI

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:32 PM

so whats your point? Gasol makes as much impact on this team as Kobe?

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#25 Jeffs

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:32 PM

Sent in my last reply before seeing this post. I pretty much made my case for Granger, Bosh, and Melo, but I'll add on to that.

Granger, Bosh, and Anthony are in no way better than Gasol. None of those player are able to get their teammates invovled on offense. All great individual talents, but in regards to impact, Gasol's is much better than theirs. Thus Gasol is top 15.


Huh? Are we talking about the best players in the league, or those that get their teammates involved on offense? If it's the latter, then substitute Nash, Calderon, and Harris in for those players. QED.

I thought we were talking about the best players in the league. If that's the case, then IMO every single GM in the league would take Granger, Bosh, and Anthony over Gasol. Every single one.


He was definitely a franchise player with the Grizzlies until the injury bug hit him and his team.

LIKE KOBE, his team always went to the 1st round and then got bounced. Don't act like Kobe fared so much better alone, because he didn't.

And to say he doesn't lead a team is ridiculous. Those Spanish internapinoal team led by him is one of the best in the world. They got a silver medal.


Nothing like Kobe.

He had much better and more complete teams around him (Miller, Stoudemire, Williams, Battier, Wells, Posey). Not the cream of the crop in the NBA, but they did their part. I'll even call Miller/Odom a wash, even though I'd take Miller's consistency over Lamar's "flashes" once every few weeks. Compare Stoudemire/Williams to Smush Parker? Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, and James Posey to Luke Walton and Jumaine Jones? II haven't even mentioned Kwame Brown yet...

No, his situation was not like Kobe's. His team wasn't rebuilding after losing three hall of fame starters one year and with no good young talent on the team. Also, his team never won a game in the playoffs, even being seeded higher than the Lakers and not having to play as tough of a team. They got swept... every single time. The Lakers at least put up a fight.

Give Pau all the credit in the world for winning 50 games. Even though he did have talent on his team, he obviously deserves praise for doing what he did. However, please don't compare him or his situation to Kobe.
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#26 lakerfool

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:39 PM

so whats your point? Gasol makes as much impact on this team as Kobe?

Kobe is the better player, but Gasol's impact is equally important. Did I speak a sinful word in the presence of the shrine of Kobe?

Sent in my last reply before seeing this post. I pretty much made my case for Granger, Bosh, and Melo, but I'll add on to that.



Huh? Are we talking about the best players in the league, or those that get their teammates involved on offense? If it's the latter, then substitute Nash, Calderon, and Harris in for those players. QED.

I thought we were talking about the best players in the league. If that's the case, then IMO every single GM in the league would take Granger, Bosh, and Anthony over Gasol. Every single one.




Nothing like Kobe.

He had much better and more complete teams around him (Miller, Stoudemire, Williams, Battier, Wells, Posey). Not the cream of the crop in the NBA, but they did their part. I'll even call Miller/Odom a wash, even though I'd take Miller's consistency over Lamar's "flashes" once every few weeks. Compare Stoudemire/Williams to Smush Parker? Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, and James Posey to Luke Walton and Jumaine Jones? II haven't even mentioned Kwame Brown yet...

No, his situation was not like Kobe's. His team wasn't rebuilding after losing three hall of fame starters one year and with no good young talent on the team. Also, his team never won a game in the playoffs, even being seeded higher than the Lakers and not having to play as tough of a team. They got swept... every single time. The Lakers at least put up a fight.

Give Pau all the credit in the world for winning 50 games. Even though he did have talent on his team, he obviously deserves praise for doing what he did. However, please don't compare him or his situation to Kobe.

Kobe did nothing with Odom/Caron that one year as well. They didn't even make the playoffs. Then we traded for Kwame. You can say Kobe was more impressive there.

But you come to tell me that those Grizzly teams without Gasol are a playoff team? Lol. No chance in hell. Gasol taking mediocre talent to the playoffs was extremely impressive and severely underrated.

And that's debateable that they'd take Granger, Anthony Bosh. Post players are extremely rare in this league. Bosh, yes, GM'S would take him, but Granger and Anthony?

Swingmen in this league are a dime a dozen. There's a bunch of good swingmen. They come in at every draft. It's rare to get Bosh's and Gasol's.

Edited by lakerfool, January 04, 2009 - 06:40 PM.

Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#27 MDI

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:41 PM

Kobe is the better player, but Gasol's impact is equally important. Did I speak a sinful word in the presence of the shrine of Kobe?


man can't you have a decent argument for once sheesh, whats the need for these one liners. Well its your opinion and I'll disagree with your statement

Kobe is the better player, but Gasol's impact is equally important. Did I speak a sinful word in the presence of the shrine of Kobe?


Kobe did nothing with Odom/Caron that one year as well. They didn't even make the playoffs. Then we traded for Kwame. You can say Kobe was more impressive there.

But you come to tell me that those Grizzly teams without Gasol are a playoff team? Lol. No chance in hell. Gasol taking mediocre talent to the playoffs was extremely impressive and severely underrated.



come on Caron wasn't even half as good back then as he's been the last 2-3 years. And no that wasn't a mediocre supporting cast around Gasol no way

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#28 Jeffs

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:43 PM

Kobe is the better player, but Gasol's impact is equally important. Did I speak a sinful word in the presence of the shrine of Kobe?


Both are great players and are very important to the team, but to say that they have an equally important impact is simply untrue. Not only is Kobe asked to do much more for the team, but his impact on his teammates is leaps and bounds beyond that of Pau. Gasol may create in the post for his teammates maybe 4 or 5 times per game. Kobe creates for himself or his teammates almost every time he touches the ball simply due to the attention that he receives from the defense. Even when he doesn't get an assist, him touching the ball is a huge boost for the Lakers, as the defense keys in on him and opens up easier shots for everyone else.

I wish we could see a stat that showed the probability of a Laker score when Kobe does or does not touch the ball. I think the results would be very telling.
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#29 Jeffs

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 06:52 PM

Kobe did nothing with Odom/Caron that one year as well. They didn't even make the playoffs. Then we traded for Kwame. You can say Kobe was more impressive there.


Wait, wait, wait... so you excuse the Grizzlies' 22-60 season because of injuries, but you refuse to do the same thing for the Lakers in 04-05? Looks like a double standard to me. Your arguments would look a lot better without a clear agenda. :P

But you come to tell me that those Grizzly teams without Gasol are a playoff team? Lol. No chance in hell. Gasol taking mediocre talent to the playoffs was extremely impressive and severely underrated.


I never said this. No way they'd make the playoffs without Pau. I'm just saying that the Grizzlies without Pau would probably be better than the Lakers without Kobe. As in, his supporting cast was better.

And that's debateable that they'd take Granger, Anthony Bosh. Post players are extremely rare in this league. Bosh, yes, GM'S would take him, but Granger and Anthony?


Bosh is a no-brainer, I'm glad we agree. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Granger and Anthony.

Swingmen in this league are a dime a dozen. There's a bunch of good swingmen. They come in at every draft. It's rare to get Bosh's and Gasol's.


If averaging 25+ ppg was that easy, there would be a couple of players coming out of college every year that would do it. I agree that elite bigs are more valuable than elite wings, but there are various levels of elite. Would you take Gasol over Wade? Of course not. I just think that Granger has turned the corner into elite NBA status, and will eventually be a top-10 player in the league. Anthony is arguably there right now and finally has a near elite team to boot. If their cheap owner didn't give away Marcus Camby, they'd be a pretty dangerous squad right now.
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#30 MDI

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 07:12 PM

Pau getting annihilated so far early in the first quarter

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#31 Jeffs

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 08:32 PM

Pau returning the favor in the third quarter/ ;)
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#32 lakerfool

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 09:19 PM

Wait, wait, wait... so you excuse the Grizzlies' 22-60 season because of injuries, but you refuse to do the same thing for the Lakers in 04-05? Looks like a double standard to me. Your arguments would look a lot better without a clear agenda. :P



I never said this. No way they'd make the playoffs without Pau. I'm just saying that the Grizzlies without Pau would probably be better than the Lakers without Kobe. As in, his supporting cast was better.



Bosh is a no-brainer, I'm glad we agree. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Granger and Anthony.



If averaging 25+ ppg was that easy, there would be a couple of players coming out of college every year that would do it. I agree that elite bigs are more valuable than elite wings, but there are various levels of elite. Would you take Gasol over Wade? Of course not. I just think that Granger has turned the corner into elite NBA status, and will eventually be a top-10 player in the league. Anthony is arguably there right now and finally has a near elite team to boot. If their cheap owner didn't give away Marcus Camby, they'd be a pretty dangerous squad right now.



I never said this. No way they'd make the playoffs without Pau. I'm just saying that the Grizzlies without Pau would probably be better than the Lakers without Kobe. As in, his supporting cast was better.


A little better. Not by leaps and bounds like you are making it out to be.

Bosh is a no-brainer, I'm glad we agree. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Granger and Anthony.

Because of his age. If they're the same age, GM's will choose Pau every time.

If averaging 25+ ppg was that easy, there would be a couple of players coming out of college every year that would do it.

Durant is putting up 23 a game, Gay is putting up 20 a game, Josh Smith, 18 a game, Jeff Green is going to average 20 a game in the near future, Caron Butler is averaging well over 20, Dunleavy averaged nearly 20 a game last year, Maggette averaged around 20 a game a year ago...so on. There are too many athletic SF's that can score. There aren't many post players.



Anthony is arguably there right now and finally has a near elite team to boot.


Anythony is good but will never make his teammates better.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#33 ファイナルファンタジ

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 09:21 PM

Anythony is good but will never make his teammates better.

Melo's wet all the time.
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Edited by Chimerical Ode, January 04, 2009 - 09:22 PM.

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#34 Jeffs

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 09:33 PM

A little better. Not by leaps and bounds like you are making it out to be.


Not by leaps and bounds. I'm just trying to establish that they are undoubtedly better. You compared Kobe's Lakers to Pau's Grizzlies in an attempt to show that they have just as much (or at least similar) impact on a team. I disagree with that. I don't tihnk it's close.

Because of his age. If they're the same age, GM's will choose Pau every time.


Disagree. Bosh is better at 24 than Pau was at 24. Pau put up 17/7/2 at that age. What does that mean? Pau improved since then. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Bosh will improve as well. Regardless, Bosh is currently putting up better numbers than Pau EVER has in his career. Bosh in a landslide.

Durant is putting up 23 a game, Gay is putting up 20 a game, Josh Smith, 18 a game, Jeff Green is going to average 20 a game in the near future, Caron Butler is averaging well over 20, Dunleavy averaged nearly 20 a game last year, Maggette averaged around 20 a game a year ago...so on. There are too many athletic SF's that can score. There aren't many post players.


Granger/Carmelo do more than just score. There aren't a lot of wing players that can put up 25/6/4. I expect Granger to put that up every year from now on. Carmelo has started out slow this year, but I think he'll be back there soon enough. Remember, he put up 29/6/4 the year before they got Iverson.


Anythony is good but will never make his teammates better.


I seem to remember people saying the same thing about Kobe. Don't really hear those people talking much anymore...
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#35 lakerfool

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Posted January 04, 2009 - 10:17 PM

Not by leaps and bounds. I'm just trying to establish that they are undoubtedly better. You compared Kobe's Lakers to Pau's Grizzlies in an attempt to show that they have just as much (or at least similar) impact on a team. I disagree with that. I don't tihnk it's close.



Disagree. Bosh is better at 24 than Pau was at 24. Pau put up 17/7/2 at that age. What does that mean? Pau improved since then. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Bosh will improve as well. Regardless, Bosh is currently putting up better numbers than Pau EVER has in his career. Bosh in a landslide.



Granger/Carmelo do more than just score. There aren't a lot of wing players that can put up 25/6/4. I expect Granger to put that up every year from now on. Carmelo has started out slow this year, but I think he'll be back there soon enough. Remember, he put up 29/6/4 the year before they got Iverson.




I seem to remember people saying the same thing about Kobe. Don't really hear those people talking much anymore...


Disagree. Bosh is better at 24 than Pau was at 24. Pau put up 17/7/2 at that age. What does that mean? Pau improved since then. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Bosh will improve as well. Regardless, Bosh is currently putting up better numbers than Pau EVER has in his career. Bosh in a landslide.


If that were the case, then the Raptors would be winning. But they aren't. Because Bosh is a ball hawk, and isn't a good passer. You are paying too close attention to the scoring numbers. Pau has always been more efficient in scoring, a superior passer averaging 4+ assists a game on numerous occasions, and a much better shot blocker.


Granger/Carmelo do more than just score. There aren't a lot of wing players that can put up 25/6/4. I expect Granger to put that up every year from now on. Carmelo has started out slow this year, but I think he'll be back there soon enough. Remember, he put up 29/6/4 the year before they got Iverson.


He puts up those numbers in an inflated system, and when you watch him play, his primary motive is scoring, rather than getting the offense moving. I like Granger more than him because Granger plays defense.

I seem to remember people saying the same thing about Kobe. Don't really hear those people talking much anymore...


Give Kobe Iverson and I guarantee you they go past the 1st round.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#36 Jeffs

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Posted January 05, 2009 - 12:23 AM

If that were the case, then the Raptors would be winning. But they aren't. Because Bosh is a ball hawk, and isn't a good passer. You are paying too close attention to the scoring numbers. Pau has always been more efficient in scoring, a superior passer averaging 4+ assists a game on numerous occasions, and a much better shot blocker.


Numerous occasions? How about once. Yes. he averaged >4 assists a game one time. Career average is 3.2. Look, he's a great passer - no one is denying that. However, you act like he's Magic Johnson and Bosh is Zach Randolph. Bosh is averaging 2.4 assists a game this year. Not great, but hardly "ball hog" numbers. Duncan usually averages around 3 assists a game (3.3 this year with all the injuries). Dirk? 2.6. Hell, even KG is only putting up 2.6apg this year (obviously he is a far better passer than that, but point remains).

I don't know where you got the idea that Bosh is a ball hog. Ball hawk? Maybe. Ball hog? Never heard anyone say that about him before. I agree that his team is underachieving and he should receive some of the blame for that, but I'd still take him over Pau. He's one of the few PFs in the league that I would say that about.


He puts up those numbers in an inflated system, and when you watch him play, his primary motive is scoring rather than getting the offense moving. I like Granger more than him because Granger plays defense.


That's just the offense he is in. George Karl has always had his stars isolate. I also like Granger more, because he seems to be a better all-around player than Carmelo. Better playmaker and better defender. As he begins to play more with the ball rather than off the ball, his stats will go up as will his impact. However, I think Carmelo is the third best offensive player in the league behind Kobe and LeBron.

Give Kobe Iverson and I guarantee you they go past the 1st round.


What's your point? That Kobe is better than Anthony? Yeah, and Chris Paul is better than Smush Parker. What's your point? :P

The Iverson experiment in Denver did not work. Just look at how much better they have been this year after trading him for Billups. It's night and day. Just imagine if they had kept Marcus Camby from last year.

Camby/Nene/Melo/Smith/Billups with K-Mart off the bench? They'd be a tough out in the playoffs.
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#37 fido

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Posted January 05, 2009 - 02:33 AM

Whatever people have him rankled at - its not high enough.

I really don't think a lot of the league has any comprehension on just how good Pau is. For my money - this season - he's the best PF in the Western Conference.

#38 daco_inc

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Posted January 05, 2009 - 03:56 AM

I wouldn't say he's the best. Timmay might be a little older, but he's still playing great. He's my vote for best PF in the west. And there's also Amare and Dirk as a couple of the top PFs in the west. I'm not really into ranks as far as individual players go, but I do think Gasol should be included in the conversation with those other 3 when it comes to the top PFs in the west.

#39 netlord

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Posted January 05, 2009 - 04:25 AM

Are we really discussing if Pau is a top 15 or not?? Is this a celtics forum??
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Posted January 05, 2009 - 05:36 AM

LOL!

We were a 1st round and out with only kobe. With Gasol and Kobe, contender. That's no impact? LMAO!!! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Well, that Kobe team without Pau (since 2005) had these clowns...

Kwame (starter)
Smush (starter)
Gump
Von Wafer
Cook
Slava
Devin Green
Jim Jackson
Mckie
Vlade Divac
Chucky
Tierre Brown
etc.

No team with Smush (dumb) and Kwame (dumber) as starters at the same time would be getting championships anytime soon...
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