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Kobe or LeBron?


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#61 Imadogg

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 05:39 AM

The Dream? You don't call Clyde "The Glide" Drexler and Robert Horry great players?

i'm assuming you don't mean the dream team, are you talking about the rockets and hakeem?

clyde drexler was great

Yes, Hakeem the Dream. You guys act like he won one title. Horry is by no means near a great player. Clyde was there for the 2nd title, not the first. Dream was the only star, one of the most underrated players ever too.

Stats on the season:
27ppg/12rpg/3.6apg/3.7bpg/1.6spg. Next leading scorer 14ppg (Otis Thorpe).

Playoff stats even better.



Anyways, lakerfool/game get back to your argument lol.

#62 lakerfool

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 08:24 AM

you are completely and utterly insane if you're going to sit there and say that adding mutumbo is like the equivalent to adding dwight howard at that point in mutumbo's career...hell, probably any point in his career. if you honestly think that, i refuse to continue this argument because you're just being irrational

You refuse to argue because you lost.

DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR is not a Dwight Howard type of player? LOL What is Howard? Defensive player of the century? HAHAHAHA

14 rebs, 3+ blocks is not like adding Dwight Howard? How much does Dwight average? 20 Rebounds, 50 blocks?

Please. Use logic instead of intuition. Wrap your mind around facts. DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. 14 pts, 14 reb, 3.2 BPG during the playoffs. ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM.

Give me that type of player as my second option anyday please.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#63 kobynum

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 09:05 AM

i would say adding mutumbo is like adding Camby...a good defensive center, most of his blocks come from the weakside, but I feel like most of you are mising the point, both of those teams,76ers and Cavs were great defensive players surrounded by two of the most dynamic scorers the game has ever seen, so far AI and LBJ23 are on the same level at this point in their careers, and AI got one more Finals victory against a better team.
If either of those players had the Dwight Howard that we know today, then the Finals in both cases would have been considerably more competitive. Do you people(some of who expect Bynum to be better than Dwight) understand how good Dwight Howard is, this dude is 23 or so, playing like one of the best big men ever, dude is a beast.
Now if I had to pick a better "team", it would be hard...lets not forget Daniel Gibson's contributions in the playoffs, but I would say on paper Lebron has the better talent, but Coach Brown's sixers had the better coach.
Again - this team, as currently constructed won't make it out of the second round of the playoffs, let alone the West or win the Finals.---fido on 2011 Lakers

#64 Game

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 09:47 AM

You refuse to argue because you lost.

DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR is not a Dwight Howard type of player? LOL What is Howard? Defensive player of the century? HAHAHAHA

14 rebs, 3+ blocks is not like adding Dwight Howard? How much does Dwight average? 20 Rebounds, 50 blocks?

Please. Use logic instead of intuition. Wrap your mind around facts. DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. 14 pts, 14 reb, 3.2 BPG during the playoffs. ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM.

Give me that type of player as my second option anyday please.


i did not lose this argument, lol, not only do you still refuse to address more than half the points i make, but you keep bringing up defensive player of the year like it makes you the best player ever. look at every player that has won defensive palyer of the year. dennis rodman and hakeen olajuwon are the only players who have won DPOY the same year their team won a championship this year. not only that, but you're putting out playoff stats, not even the stats he won DPOY year with, they were decently lower. you're talkin about it like it means its MVP or something. especially since he didn't really have any competition that year.

how many time do i have to tell you that the only reason mutumbo produced so much was because the rest of the team was GARBAGE. did you even look at the rosters i posted? did you check his playoff stats every year immediately following that? he had 9ppg and 10 rebounds the next year, and after that, he made it to 5ppg once (rounding up) and 6.5rpg once. find me 3 other people on this board that have watched basketball closely for more than 10 years that agree that adding mutumbo to your team at that point in his career would be like adding dwight howard at this point in his career, and then you can talk about winning the argument. until then, or at least until you address the majority of my arguments, i win. as i said earlier, argue that iverson had a better TEAM, and we'll talk, i didn't say who has the second best player.

also, dwight howard averages 20ppg, shooting 55%. not to mention the speed and athleticism he adds. how much you have to defend him, double teams freeing up other players. don't try to tell me mutumbo drew double teams like howard does. if you only look at bball on paper, again, i can't argue with you.

Edited by Game505, December 26, 2008 - 10:06 AM.

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#65 Game

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 09:49 AM

Yes, Hakeem the Dream. You guys act like he won one title. Horry is by no means near a great player. Clyde was there for the 2nd title, not the first. Dream was the only star, one of the most underrated players ever too.

Stats on the season:
27ppg/12rpg/3.6apg/3.7bpg/1.6spg. Next leading scorer 14ppg (Otis Thorpe).

Playoff stats even better.



Anyways, lakerfool/game get back to your argument lol.

good call on the first title, it was still an awesome team with a lot of talent though, in a jordanless NBA. he still had kenny smith, mario ellie, big game bob, same cassell, vernon maxwell. not to take anything away from the dream, but thats not a bad team. probably as close as it gets to doing it without another superstar...though some would argue kenny smith

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#66 elpermic

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 10:10 AM

How the [expletive] did this argument go from Kobe and LeBron to Iverson's 76ers and LeBron's Cavs? LMAO!

I'd plow Vanessa Bryant.


#67 daco_inc

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 10:18 AM

good call on the first title, it was still an awesome team with a lot of talent though, in a jordanless NBA. he still had kenny smith, mario ellie, big game bob, same cassell, vernon maxwell. not to take anything away from the dream, but thats not a bad team. probably as close as it gets to doing it without another superstar...though some would argue kenny smith

A bunch of role players. good role players, but still role players nonetheless.There's no great on that team other than Hakeem.

#68 Game

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 10:23 AM

How the [expletive] did this argument go from Kobe and LeBron to Iverson's 76ers and LeBron's Cavs? LMAO!


because he said who else could take a bunch of "scrubs" to the NBA finals, then i said "umm, allen iverson" then he tried to tell me mutumbo was like dwight howard...which i find insane, please someone correct me if i'm wrong?

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#69 Game

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 10:23 AM

A bunch of role players. good role players, but still role players nonetheless.There's no great on that team other than Hakeem.

yea, i basically agree with that...guess there's an exception to every rule

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#70 phifedogg76

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 10:27 AM

Deke NEVER drew double teams, averaged points on mostly putbacks or when he was very deep in position bu the was DPOY (but so was a person like Camby), having Aaron McKie as a 3rd best player on the team means your team wasnt that great (dont overrate him like that please), hell Matt Geiger was starting for that team during the playoffs ... I'd take Joe Smith easily over him
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#71 elpermic

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 12:14 PM

“LeBron James has established himself as a legitimate triple-double threat. He averages 27.4 points, 6.6 assists, 6.9 rebounds per game for his career. He has 20 career triple doubles, compared to Kobe Bryant's 14 in his 12 year career.”

Kobe from 18 to 23, including lockout year
Points per game-19.8
Assists per game-3.8
Turnovers per game-2.5
Assist to turnover ratio per game-1.5
Rebounds per game-4.6

Kobe from 18 to 23, excluding lockout year
Points per game-19.8
Assists per game-3.8
Turnovers per game-2.5
Assist to turnover ratio per game-1.5
Rebounds per game-4.8

Kobe as a starter to 23, including lockout year
Points per game-24.5
Assists per game-4.9
Turnovers per game-3.0
Assist to turnover ratio per game-1.6
Rebounds per game-5.8

Kobe as a starter to 23, excluding lockout year
Points per game-25.4
Assists per game-5.1
Turnovers per game-3.0
Assist to turnover ratio per game-1.7
Rebounds per game-5.9

Kobe as a starter to present, including lockout year
Points per game-27.7
Assists per game-5.1
Turnovers per game-3.2
Assist to turnover ratio per game-1.6
Rebounds per game-5.9

Kobe as a starter to present, excluding lockout year
Points per game-28.2
Assists per game-5.2
Turnovers per game-3.2
Assist to turnover ratio per game-1.6
Rebounds per game- 5.9

LeBron from rookie year to today
Points per game-27.4
Assists per game-6.6
Turnovers per game-3.3
Assist to turnover ratio per game-2
Rebounds per game-6.9

The thing is, Kobe Bryant’s natural position is SHOOTING GUARD, although he can play Small Forward, SG is his natural position. Do you expect Kobe to be averaging as much rebounds as LeBron? Hell, if you moved Kobe to the SF position, I bet he will be averaging at least 6 rebounds! As for the assists? Can’t do anything about that, Kobe plays in the triangle offense in which assists do not matter!


“On offense, LeBron utilizes his quickness, size, and strength to get past defenders. When penetrating to the basket LeBron exhibits exceptional body control, adjusting his shot in mid-air according to the defense, allowing him to absorb contact and finish at the basket. He is a solid rebounder.”

Yes, that is what LeBron does. The thing is, LeBron RELIES on his natural athletic ability and his combined athleticism. His offensive part of his game is more athletic rather than finesse such as Kobe. Kobe’s game is completely off of his skill, and raw talent. LeBron can play interior better than any player in this league, arguably in this game ever, except the thing is Jordan is the best in interior game BAR NONE! His free throw percentage has increased, I will agree, the thing is, he is still not shooting 80% from the line this year compared to Kobe(86%). His midrange game, needs work, he is not consistent in it. I haven’t seen an argument of LeBron making it rain in his midrange game yet, but his midrange game is still a BIG HOLE in his offensive game, a very big weakness, and it will probably be exploited come playoff time. Another part of LeBron’s offensive game. His 3 point shooting. It is very streaky, he’ll be on fire, at nights he’ll miss each one. He is shooting a career average 32% compared to Kobe(34%)

Both players from draft day to 23 3 pointer percent
LeBron: 32
Kobe including lockout:31
Kobe excluding lockout:32

Both players from draft day to today:
LeBron:32
Kobe including lockout:34%
Kobe excluding lockout:34%

Both players so far during the 2008-2009 NBA season:
LeBron:28%(This was rounded up, he is under 28, 27.8% to be exact)
Kobe:32%(This was rounded up, he is under 32, 31.9% to be exact)

Let’s not forget about LeBron’s body compared to Kobe’s completely different builds.

LeBron:
6’8” and 250 lbs
Kobe:
6’6” and 205 lbs

You see the huge difference? Imagine if Kobe Bryant had the size of LeBron James, who is 2 inches taller, or the build of LeBron James of 250 lbs of pure muscle compared to Kobe, who is 45 lbs lower. Also imagine this vice versa. Would Kobe be dominating in LeBron’s body? Would LeBron be dominating if he had a body like Kobe? He actually has a better defensive advantage, because he can practically defend ALL 5 POSITIONS due to his quickness, while Kobe would be at a disadvantage at the 4 and 5 spot.

The rebounding part I can agree with, LeBron is much more taller, and plays at Small Forward, whose job is to do everything, while Kobe a shooting guard, doesn’t have a priotrity to rebound. However, Kobe is a swingman, and when he is shifted to the Small Forward spot, he would be averaging the same amount of rebounds as LeBron, GUARENTEED!

“His overall skill sets and on-court play has led to many comparisons to NBA legends Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson.”

Can I see LeBron being compared to the Big O? Yes I could, mainly because of his stats.

Michael Jordan? In a way as well, again, his stats. Also his interior game is the best in this league, including his finishing, but let’s not forget. Jordan is the best interior man the game has ever seen, and the best finisher BAR NONE!

Magic Johnson? Definitely. His court vision, passing ability, even his gameplay resembles Magic the most, I myself witnessed Magic playing in the 80s while growing up, and I can tell you LeBron has the traits of Magic, not Jordan, and not Oscar. Now of course, to me Magic is the greatest player of all-time. LeBron has the skills of Magic, will he be better? My opinion is a no.

“LeBron is an extraordinary passer, he constantly looks for his teammates, and works to make them better.”

Again, refer to the Magic Johnson part of the post.

“He is a born leader, his voice can be heard during practice, inside huddles, and on the court. “

Yes I agree, he, Kobe, and Wade did lead the US to the gold medal this year in the Olympics, can I agree with this? Yes, he is a leader.

“This year he has become a great defensive player. He challenges himself to take on the opposing teams best offensive player. Day in and out he sets the tone for his team defensively.”

A great defensive player? You can’t really say that. I do think he has vastly improved on his defensive game when Mike Brown became coach. But what makes him a better defensive player than Kobe? Has he proven he can play lockdown defense at will like Kobe or Jordan? No, LeBron’s lockdown defense part of his game still needs works. If anything, I will say LeBron’s shot blocking is better than Kobe, but does shot blocking the only thing that determines a better defensive player? Altering shots and contesting shots matter, not when LeBron goes up and swats the ball doesn’t make him the better defender. I agree he sets the tone, oh well, so does Kobe. Next, check the facts, do you remember how many seasons Kobe has made the All-Defensive team? He has made the list EIGHT times! Six of them on the All-Defensive First team, the rest with the second. How many defensive teams has LeBron made? ZERO! If we check when Kobe made the All-Defensive team until 2003(where he became 23 years old) He has made it four times! Twice on the first, and twice on the second! How can you say LeBron is the better defender when clearly, the FACTS, don’t lie?

“He's posted up great numbers, and his resume is astonishing.”

Great, I also see on his resume that he holds the Cavalier for most turnovers in a half, with 9! LMAO!

As for Kobe’s record? Same thing, he has posted great numbers and his resume is astonishing, the thing is, Kobe Bryant is probably going to retire as a top 10 all-time player(I think he is 9th or 10th on my list)

“Scary thing is, that he's only 23, and nowhere near his prime. That is what makes LeBron the best player.”

He is only 23, that’s great? Still remember Kobe when he was that age? People had dubbed him the next Michael Jordan when he got out of high school, and people were saying Kobe Bryant is the next Michael Jordan. As for the nowhere near his prime thing? Let’s not forget one major injury could change his entire career, I personally hope that doesn’t happen as nobody would want somebody hurt. Remember Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway? They both ad comparisons to be as great as Michael Jordan, they could have possibly been if they hadn’t been hampered by injuries later in their careers.

You see? Kobe has the more polished game than LeBron, he’s an all league defender, his accomplishments are as great if not better. LeBron needs work on his shot, 3pt shooting, and free throws. Kobe is better offensively and defensively, beat Kobe in driving, he’ll make it rain with jumpshots. Shut down the lane for LeBron? He’ll have to be forced to use his jumpshot, and he’s not great at it. LeBron is going to be great, he will be dominating the league when Kobe retires, but right now it is Kobe the best player hands down. You have your opinions, but come on now, you’re simply ignoring many facts that Kobe has.

I'd plow Vanessa Bryant.


#72 elpermic

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 02:17 PM

Do I say GG or what?

I'd plow Vanessa Bryant.


#73 R0S4l3S<3

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 02:21 PM

kobe all the way!!

lebron is a wanna be!!!

Edited by Ashley, December 26, 2008 - 02:22 PM.

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#74 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 04:20 PM

Do I say GG or what?


You can say whatever you want. That was a GREAT post. :bow:

#75 Aztek Lakerfan

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 04:28 PM

Easy answer. Kobe of course. Lebron will be the best when Kobe retires.

#76 daco_inc

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 04:55 PM

Another thing to consider is that not only did Kobe start off on the bench (and that's not because Kobe wasn't able, it's just that the Lakers were already a pretty good team before he came), he played second fiddle to Shaq for more than half of his career, as opposed to LeBron who came to a poor Cavs team and has been their #1 option basically since day 1.

#77 JD

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 05:19 PM

You refuse to argue because you lost.

DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR is not a Dwight Howard type of player? LOL What is Howard? Defensive player of the century? HAHAHAHA

14 rebs, 3+ blocks is not like adding Dwight Howard? How much does Dwight average? 20 Rebounds, 50 blocks?

Please. Use logic instead of intuition. Wrap your mind around facts. DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. 14 pts, 14 reb, 3.2 BPG during the playoffs. ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM.

Give me that type of player as my second option anyday please.


Did you ever see Mutumbo play?

Dikembe was a very good man/team defender (though, somewhat lacking when faced against player in similar stature), good rebounder and an excellent shot-blocker. Offensively, he was limited to mostly put-backs. You've repeatedly called him a "second-option", something of which he wasn't ever. His offensive skill-set was woefully anemic.

So for you to claim anyone has lost, when your argument has been for the most part flawed and built on a faulty premise, is quite absurd.

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#78 Grandpa Herman

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 06:07 PM

It's obvious he's the better all around player now. People can't say he doesn't play defense because I've seen most of Cleveland's games and most of ours and LeBron has been a more committed defender than Kobe.

Near the tail end of a game it's no doubt who's more dangerous, though.
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#79 lakerfool

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 09:30 PM

i did not lose this argument, lol, not only do you still refuse to address more than half the points i make, but you keep bringing up defensive player of the year like it makes you the best player ever. look at every player that has won defensive palyer of the year. dennis rodman and hakeen olajuwon are the only players who have won DPOY the same year their team won a championship this year. not only that, but you're putting out playoff stats, not even the stats he won DPOY year with, they were decently lower. you're talkin about it like it means its MVP or something. especially since he didn't really have any competition that year.

how many time do i have to tell you that the only reason mutumbo produced so much was because the rest of the team was GARBAGE. did you even look at the rosters i posted? did you check his playoff stats every year immediately following that? he had 9ppg and 10 rebounds the next year, and after that, he made it to 5ppg once (rounding up) and 6.5rpg once. find me 3 other people on this board that have watched basketball closely for more than 10 years that agree that adding mutumbo to your team at that point in his career would be like adding dwight howard at this point in his career, and then you can talk about winning the argument. until then, or at least until you address the majority of my arguments, i win. as i said earlier, argue that iverson had a better TEAM, and we'll talk, i didn't say who has the second best player.

also, dwight howard averages 20ppg, shooting 55%. not to mention the speed and athleticism he adds. how much you have to defend him, double teams freeing up other players. don't try to tell me mutumbo drew double teams like howard does. if you only look at bball on paper, again, i can't argue with you.


I'm talking in regards to DEFENSE. Mutombo was defensive player of the year. Get it in your head please. Give me a DPOY as second option to an offensive MVP anyday over Larry Hughes please.

Playoff stats are the only statistics that count. His during the year stats were 12/12/2 blks. Keep ignoring the fact that Iverson had the best defensive player in the game next to him while LeBron had Gooden. I guess anything to savor Kobe's legacy.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#80 lakerfool

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Posted December 26, 2008 - 09:31 PM

Did you ever see Mutumbo play?

Dikembe was a very good man/team defender (though, somewhat lacking when faced against player in similar stature), good rebounder and an excellent shot-blocker. Offensively, he was limited to mostly put-backs. You've repeatedly called him a "second-option", something of which he wasn't ever. His offensive skill-set was woefully anemic.

So for you to claim anyone has lost, when your argument has been for the most part flawed and built on a faulty premise, is quite absurd.


Yes, I did see Mutombo play. One of the greatest defenders to ever play the game.

In second option, I mean second best player. Give me a DPOY as my second best player any day over Drew friggin Gooden. We're talking about Drew Gooden! Lol.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.




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