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Kobe or LeBron?


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#41 daco_inc

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 06:37 PM

Nice post last stand.

edit: and oh yea, name me a team that has won a championship without at least two great players in the last 30 years or so?

The Dream.

#42 LA Forever

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 06:43 PM

The Dream? You don't call Clyde "The Glide" Drexler and Robert Horry great players?

#43 Game

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 06:44 PM

Nice post last stand.


The Dream.


i'm assuming you don't mean the dream team, are you talking about the rockets and hakeem?

clyde drexler was great

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#44 MDI

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 06:47 PM

Dwight has better numbers across the board than Duncan (other than scoring where they're even).

does that mean Dwight is a better big man that Duncan?

same thing here

Edited by MDI, December 25, 2008 - 06:48 PM.

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Props to sidthekid871


#45 lyk13

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 06:51 PM

Last Stand 2.0 ftw for the right post.




#46 lakerfool

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 07:27 PM

are you serious? wow, and you're calling me delusional? if you paid attention to anything i said, which you clearly didn't, i said lebron had a better TEAM...NOWHERE in my argument did i say anything about goodens #s equaling mutombo's. NOWHERE did i even hint that gooden's 11 ppg is what made the differnce...where are you getting this stuff? how come when you argue with me you just make up a bunch that i never said instead of addressing what i'm trying to say. there were more people on the 76ers that year than dikembe mutumbo and allen iversion, the reason i didn't name anymore of them is because they were all basically garbage. much more garbage than the people i named from bron bron's team. i also never said great 3 point shooters, though i'll argue that 40% is considered great, and being that they had 2 players over 40, i guess you're right, they did have great 3 points shooters.

here is my argument - lebron had a better TEAM (the whole roster, not 2 players) the year they went to they went to the finals than allen iverson had the year he went to the finals. if you care to argue that, please do.

LeBron had a better team?

Iverson had McKie who put up 15/4/4 when he was healthy, Mutombo putting up beastly defensive numbers, Snow who was the best PG defender at the time. Iverson's team was easily better.

Lebron had Hughes who couldn't hit an outside shot to save his life, as well as Z who is decent, and Gooden who is a complete scrub. The guy's that they had hit their 3's because of the opportunities created off of Lebron getting double teamed. Those guys, aside from Gibson, couldn't shoot 40% to save their life if it weren't for Lebron. Great players make their teammates better.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#47 Thizz

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:28 PM

LeBron had a better team?

Iverson had McKie who put up 15/4/4 when he was healthy, Mutombo putting up beastly defensive numbers, Snow who was the best PG defender at the time. Iverson's team was easily better.

Lebron had Hughes who couldn't hit an outside shot to save his life, as well as Z who is decent, and Gooden who is a complete scrub. The guy's that they had hit their 3's because of the opportunities created off of Lebron getting double teamed. Those guys, aside from Gibson, couldn't shoot 40% to save their life if it weren't for Lebron. Great players make their teammates better.

:lol: You are the one delusional. You are trying to show that Lebron didnt have a great supporting cast back then yet you are underrating his team. I dont think Lebron had a good supporting cast but they definitely arent the scrubs you make em out to be. Z is ok? If you forgot the man was a All-star and has been for a while. Gooden a scrub? If you call 11 and 9 being a scrub, fa sho you obviously dont know what you are talking about. And you are overrating Iverson's team. When the hell did McKie ever put up 15,4,4? His best season with the 76ers was 12, 3, 3. And as much as Snow was a defensive stopper, the man couldnt shoot. Mutombo was Iverson's only All-Star team mate but at that point in his career he was mainly a defensive beast and not a huge scorer. So to say Iverson's team is easily better is just stupid. Both squads are very even. Lebron had the better offensive supporting cast while Iverson had a better defensive cast. However I'm going with Iverson, anyone who could lead that team to a Finals and a win over the on fire Lakers is a beast. Homie check your facts and think before you [post because you sound straight ignorant

#48 lakerfool

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:39 PM

:lol: You are the one delusional. You are trying to show that Lebron didnt have a great supporting cast back then yet you are underrating his team. I dont think Lebron had a good supporting cast but they definitely arent the scrubs you make em out to be. Z is ok? If you forgot the man was a All-star and has been for a while. Gooden a scrub? If you call 11 and 9 being a scrub, fa sho you obviously dont know what you are talking about. And you are overrating Iverson's team. When the hell did McKie ever put up 15,4,4? His best season with the 76ers was 12, 3, 3. And as much as Snow was a defensive stopper, the man couldnt shoot. Mutombo was Iverson's only All-Star team mate but at that point in his career he was mainly a defensive beast and not a huge scorer. So to say Iverson's team is easily better is just stupid. Both squads are very even. Lebron had the better offensive supporting cast while Iverson had a better defensive cast. However I'm going with Iverson, anyone who could lead that team to a Finals and a win over the on fire Lakers is a beast. Homie check your facts and think before you [post because you sound straight ignorant


If you call 11 and 9 being a scrub, fa sho you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Gooden is a good rebounder, but an atrocious defender, has an inconsistent midrange game, and extremely erratic offensive play.

\Z is ok? If you forgot the man was a All-star and has been for a whil

He made the all star game twice, in the East which was anemic for centers.

When the hell did McKie ever put up 15,4,4?

http://www.nba.com/s...offs_stats.html
During the playoffs

During that season, he averaged 12 pts, 4 reb, 5 assists, 1.4 steals

And as much as Snow was a defensive stopper, the man couldnt shoot.


Nope, and neither could Hughes.

Mutombo was Iverson's only All-Star team mate but at that point in his career he was mainly a defensive beast and not a huge scorer.

Scored 14 ppg during the playoffs. More than Big Z, and add to that 2 x's the rebounds, blocks, and a million times the defensive presence.

Homie check your facts and think before you [post because you sound straight ignorant


HoMiE cHEcK uR fAcTz d00dz. Iverson played with a HOF, DPOY center, while Lebron played with Big Z. It's obvious that Iverson's team was more talented.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#49 Game

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:46 PM

someone already replied to your other post, and now i'm just goin to add somethin simple...

i've seen some things you've posted before, and i believe you usually know what you're talkin about, but if you honestly can look at these finals rosters and tell me that you'd prefer iverson's TEAM, not iverson and his second best guy, i'm going to lose respect for your knowledge of basketball

CAVS
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Drew Gooden
Eric Snow
LeBron James
Donyell Marshall
Damon Jones
Ira Newble
Scot Pollard
Sasha Pavlovic
Shannon Brown
Anderson Varejao
Daniel Gibson

SIXERS
Allen Iverson
Aaron McKie
Dikembe Mutombo
Eric Snow
Tyrone Hill
Jumaine Jones
George Lynch
Todd MacCulloch
Matt Geiger
Raja Bell
Kevin Ollie
Rodney Buford

by the way, that's raja bell very early in his career, he only averaged 2.3 ppg during the playoffs according to that stat page

Edited by Game505, December 25, 2008 - 09:51 PM.

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#50 lakerfool

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:49 PM

^well, made my argument for me basically

i've seen some things you've posted before, and i believe you usually know what you're talkin about, but if you honestly can look at these finals rosters and tell me that you'd prefer iverson's TEAM, not iverson and his second best guy, i'm going to lose respect for your knowledge of basketball

CAVS
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Drew Gooden
Eric Snow
LeBron James
Donyell Marshall
Damon Jones
Ira Newble
Scot Pollard
Sasha Pavlovic
Shannon Brown
Anderson Varejao
Daniel Gibson

SIXERS
Allen Iverson
Aaron McKie
Dikembe Mutombo
Eric Snow
Tyrone Hill
Jumaine Jones
George Lynch
Todd MacCulloch
Matt Geiger
Raja Bell
Kevin Ollie
Rodney Buford


Having Mutombo as your second option >>>>>>>>>>>>> Z as your second option. Period. Lebron's team is deeper. But Iverson's team is better, especially with Mutombo. To completely neglect the fact that LeBron played next to the DPOY...one of the greatest defensive centers EVER, is completely ridiculous.

You guys also completely neglect the fact that they had to get past a strong detroit team, whereas Iverson didn't.

Edited by lakerfool, December 25, 2008 - 09:50 PM.

Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#51 Thizz

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:49 PM

:lol: So you are basing this all on Mutombo vs Z? There are more players on the team than that if you havent noticed. If you actually believe that Eric Snow and McKie are so much better than Gooden and Hughes, and you forgot Varejao who played well for the Cavs that season, fa sho theres no arguing with you, you probably live for it and are you just gonna believe what you want. But one team aint easily better than the other. I could see people saying that Lebrons team is a little worse or a little better but Mutombo itself isnt enough to catapault them over the Cavs. You acting like Mutombo was that much of a impact player. I dont know if you saw the playoffs that year but Iverson carried that team on his shoulder. Mutombo is a HOF defensive beast but you are talking bout over his career. His season with Iverson, he was 36 no where near his prime and wasnt that HOF caliburplayer he was when he was younger.

#52 lakerfool

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:58 PM

:lol: So you are basing this all on Mutombo vs Z? There are more players on the team than that if you havent noticed. If you actually believe that Eric Snow and McKie are so much better than Gooden and Hughes, and you forgot Varejao who played well for the Cavs that season, fa sho theres no arguing with you, you probably live for it and are you just gonna believe what you want. But one team aint easily better than the other. I could see people saying that Lebrons team is a little worse or a little better but Mutombo itself isnt enough to catapault them over the Cavs. You acting like Mutombo was that much of a impact player. I dont know if you saw the playoffs that year but Iverson carried that team on his shoulder. Mutombo is a HOF defensive beast but you are talking bout over his career. His season with Iverson, he was 36 no where near his prime and wasnt that HOF caliburplayer he was when he was younger.


:lol: So you are basing this all on Mutombo vs Z?


Um yes. Having one of the greatest defensive centers to ever play the game is kind of a big deal. That's like saying, 'you're basing this off of Shaq vs. Rik Smits'.

you forgot Varejao

You forgot about Varejao. I always said Iverson's team was thinner. But in the end of the day, Iverson played with better players.

Mutombo is a HOF defensive beast but you are talking bout over his career.


2001 DPOY
All NBA 1st Team defense

12 PTS, 12 reb, 2.5 bpg

Playoffs
14 pts, 14 reb, 3 bpg during the playoffs.
http://www.nba.com/s...offs_stats.html

This is the equivalent of adding somebody like Dwight Howard to your team. You're going to tell me that you wouldn't trade Big Z and Gooden for Dwight Howard? Lol.

You're acting like he's comparable to Z. But he's not.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#53 popo

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 09:59 PM

The level of talent was and still is much better and tougher in 2007 then back in 2001, Even Anthony Mason made the all-star back team then.

Edited by popo, December 25, 2008 - 10:00 PM.

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#54 Game

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:11 PM

yea, i'm not sure what part of team you don't understand. do you remember the 2004 finals? lakers pistons.

CLEARLY the lakers had much more talent, and guys that put up better numbers on paper but the pistons were simply a better team. this is what i'm talkin about now. hell, even last year the lakers had more talent, but boston was the better team. its basketball 101...not a complicated process. i don't know why you keep insisting on bringing up mutumbo. also, have you ever thought of the fact that maybe mutumbo's numbers were better than big z's because there wasn't anyone else to help him rebound, or spread the scoring more as there is on lebron's team? you notice when kobe got more help, and better players his numbers went down? more basketbally 101

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#55 Thizz

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:12 PM

Fa sho whatever you gonna believe what you are gonna believe, Im gonna believe what Im gonna believe but if you look at what TheGame posted you can see for yourself. If you really think Iverson's team overall is better than Lebrons, there is nothing more I can say. Sure Iverson has a aging Mutombo but thats about it. Lebron's bench is a lot better than Iversons

#56 lakerfool

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:13 PM

yea, i'm not sure what part of team you don't understand. do you remember the 2004 finals? lakers pistons.

CLEARLY the lakers had much more talent, and guys that put up better numbers on paper but the pistons were simply a better team. this is what i'm talkin about now. hell, even last year the lakers had more talent, but boston was the better team. its basketball 101...not a complicated process. i don't know why you keep insisting on bringing up mutumbo. also, have you ever thought of the fact that maybe mutumbo's numbers were better than big z's because there wasn't anyone else to help him rebound, or spread the scoring more as there is on lebron's team? you notice when kobe got more help, and better players his numbers went down? more basketbally 101

You've gotta be kidding me. That year, Mutombo won DPOY, and was All Defensive 1st team. This isn't just about numbers. This is about having the best defensive players in the game.

It's the equivalent of having Dwight Howard on your team instead of Z. I find it absurd that you compare a DPOY to big z.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#57 lakerfool

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:15 PM

Fa sho whatever you gonna believe what you are gonna believe, Im gonna believe what Im gonna believe but if you look at what TheGame posted you can see for yourself. If you really think Iverson's team overall is better than Lebrons, there is nothing more I can say. Sure Iverson has a aging Mutombo but thats about it. Lebron's bench is a lot better than Iversons

Keep saying aging all you want. That doesn't change the fact that he won DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR that year, and put up 14/14/3 blks during the playoffs.
Gooden>> Lamar Odom. Mo Williams>> Ray Allen>> Gasol. Nene= Gasol.

#58 Game

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:16 PM

Um yes. Having one of the greatest defensive centers to ever play the game is kind of a big deal. That's like saying, 'you're basing this off of Shaq vs. Rik Smits'.

You forgot about Varejao. I always said Iverson's team was thinner. But in the end of the day, Iverson played with better players.



2001 DPOY
All NBA 1st Team defense

12 PTS, 12 reb, 2.5 bpg

Playoffs
14 pts, 14 reb, 3 bpg during the playoffs.
http://www.nba.com/s...offs_stats.html

This is the equivalent of adding somebody like Dwight Howard to your team. You're going to tell me that you wouldn't trade Big Z and Gooden for Dwight Howard? Lol.

You're acting like he's comparable to Z. But he's not.


you are completely and utterly insane if you're going to sit there and say that adding mutumbo is like the equivalent to adding dwight howard at that point in mutumbo's career...hell, probably any point in his career. if you honestly think that, i refuse to continue this argument because you're just being irrational

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#59 popo

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:28 PM

Lebron went through tougher teams then Iverson did to get to the finals.
1st rd vs 3 all stars Gilbert Arenas, Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison
2nd rd vs 2 all stars Jason Kidd, Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson career 17ppg scorer
3rd rd vs 4 all stars Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace and defensive stopper Tayshuan Prince. And he put on one of the greatest playoff game performances vs Detroit 48pts in game 6 including the last 25 of 29 pts of his team. And that's the same Detroit team minus Ben that man handled our Lakers in the finals 3 seasons before.

Edited by popo, December 25, 2008 - 11:06 PM.

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#60 Hayter M

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Posted December 25, 2008 - 10:42 PM

QUESTION: if iverson is so good, how come Denver is better without him? better yet, how come a team with Iverson, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, Rodney Stuckey (which are way better than his sixer teammates) has a record of 15-11. 4-0 before iverson got there and 11-11 after iverson got there?????




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