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Zach LaVine: Best Dunker In The NBA?


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#61 TKainZero

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Posted August 03, 2014 - 12:24 PM

Remember people

Using majesty's logic.
Kerry kitties was better than Kobe back in 1996...

#62 Majesty

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Posted August 03, 2014 - 01:18 PM

 

Man

His is going to be hilarious when clarkson is out of the league, and Levine is winning dunk contests and 3 point contests


keep overrating LaVine because he dunks and has yet to reach his potential, still has the rest of the game to learn and is showing all the signs of too much too soon.  

And keep thinking Clarkson is going to fail because of where he was drafted.

 

 

Remember people

Using majesty's logic.
Kerry kitties was better than Kobe back in 1996...


That's an insult on the backend of a weak argument. 

Kobe was more complete at 17 than LaVine will be by 22.   Kobe was a complete player coming out of high school and just had to learn professional speed.  That was along WITH his athleticism and upside

LaVine has the athleticism, but is lacking the completeness, knowledge about the game, and fell off big time when his responsibilities increased while Kobe was carrying his team LaVine was a bench player.

Don't even try to use such an idiotic comparison. 

You could find many reasons why Kobe would be considered better than Kittles in the long run and it was a lot more than "he had half a good season but fell off significantly when he got more responsibility..but he jumps really high!"  

Trying to compare LaVine's situation when he couldn't make it off the bench and struggled significantly with more responsibilities that saw his percentages drop over 30% after his hot start and Clarkson who was one of the leaders of his team with starting responsibilities at both the 1 and the 2 or even comparing it to Kobe who was the best player on his team to LaVine who wasn't even the best player on his own team and couldn't make it off of the bench and when he finally did after people saying he had to finally get a chance had his numbers fall off significantly despite having his responsibilities diminished to off ball shooter(which he's supposed to be good at) is no comparative. 

Who is the better player right now?  Clarkson or LaVine?  It's a simple question. 

You can throw "If he reaches his potential" at anyone. Bottom line, who is the better player right now? 


Edited by Majesty, August 03, 2014 - 01:37 PM.

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#63 TKainZero

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Posted August 03, 2014 - 11:30 PM

You would have been riding kitties hard!
Using your nba ready criteria, and current production, you would have argued from 1996 til 1999 Kerry kittles was better than Kobe


Your as bad as the person who says the warriors didn't tank for Harrison Barnes.

#64 Michaelyumm

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Posted August 03, 2014 - 11:55 PM

Wow this is an awesome argument lololol!! Majesty going to work as usual. Were you ever on a debate team Maj? Or maybe you're a lawyer?



#65 Majesty

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Posted August 04, 2014 - 12:01 AM

You would have been riding kitties hard!
Using your nba ready criteria, and current production, you would have argued from 1996 til 1999 Kerry kittles was better than Kobe
 


Actually I wouldn't have. 

You're trying to make this not about LaVine now and trying to say if I'd have picked Kittles over Kobe.

No. 

Kobe had a complete game at 17, he was already ready for the NBA, he destroyed Michael Cooper in workouts whom was one of the best defenders in the game, his post game was already touted and considered complete, against grown men he was dropping 36 on people. He lead his school to undefeated seasons and was the best player in the nation. 


Zach LaVine is someone who couldn't get off the bench in UCLA and when he had the chance with the bigger responsibilities he didn't do anything with it and in the second half of his season with those responsibilities his hot start dropped off significantly and he showed little to no improvement within it in the summer league.  At the combine he just confirmed that athletically he's a freak. 

But athletic freaks are a dime a dozen in the NBA as Gerald Green learned the hard way.  It took him 9 years to finally find his nitch and he came into the league the same way, he was 'touted' as a three point shooter that jumped extremely high, didn't have the rest of his game at all but they expected him to learn. 

Kobe was not JUST an athletic freak.  He was an athletic freak, who had a complete game from the mid to the post, showed his leadership qualities by leading a team, was destroying Michael Cooper, dropping 36 on grown men like it was nothing and showing brilliance not just in a full court sprint but within the halfcourt setting. 

IT was not hard to look at Kittles and say once Kobe got used to the NBA game that he was going to be better.  There was no reason not to believe this. 

LaVine's problems are not Kobe's.   Kobe's problems were just getting up to NBA speed and he was gonna reach his potential.

In order for LaVine to reach his potential he'd have to learn and then learn to excel at the following

Being able to operate in a half court set

Finishing at the basket through contact
Becoming a better free throw shooter
Finishing at the basket in general in a half court setting
Ball handling skills
Court vision

Basketball IQ

Defensive
Consistent shooting 
Not only that but other worrysome things
Ability to cope with leadership responsibilities. 

 


If LaVine were to LEARN first and then excel at all of those things within 1-3 years he'd likely reach his potential, but that's a lot to ask.   Realistically you're looking at 4-5 years and that's IF Minni doesn't give up on him the way Boston gave up on Gerald Green along with many other teams not willing to wait on him to learn everything first. 

Comparing to Clarkson all Clarkson has to do is get up to NBA speed and refine his point guard game and he'll be fine.  

He already has court vision, he already can break down defenses in the half court set, he already helped lead a team, he was already trusted with being one of the main scoring options in terms of responsibilities, he's already been a starter, he's already shown he can operate in a halfcourt set. 

It's just about improving upon those things for him to be the kind of player he wants to be. 

There's a difference between already having those things and needing to improve them and needing to LEARN those things and then work on improving them.  LaVine is the latter.  To compare his situation to Kobe vs Kittles is silly.  

Kobe already KNEW all the things he needed to know to be complete and it was just about getting it to NBA speed and then the sky was the limit which is why you wouldn't assume Kittles would be better than Kobe for very long.   Not only that but Kobe was consistently great.  It wasn't a half a season with diminished responsibility stat inflation that dropped 20-30% points in production during the second half.  

You can't compare the situation no matter how hard you try and you will not find a single universe where I'd have picked Kittles over Kobe.   

This isn't just about who was better in college, it is about who is the more complete player now as well.  Clarkson is the more complete of the two.  And it isn't just that LaVine is raw he has to out and out learn things FIRST and then he can start to improve upon them. 

LaVine's upside is "if he learns to do this..and that..and this..and that...and this... THEN he can perhaps reach his potential if he becomes real good at each of those things."

Heck even with Wiggins and his rawness he already has the tools and it's just about him refining those things he already has and can do and perfecting them.   

LaVine still has a lot to LEARN before we can even talk about him becoming great at them and reaching his potential. 

"He has to learn 99% of the game" is not a compliment, it's a handicap.   In the NBA you don't have a lot of time to do so, particularly in a place like Minnesota who has no clue how to develop players properly.  LaVine is a project.  You may wish he was Westbrook now but the reality is he DID leave college too soon(but you can't blame him) and he's a project with 99% of the game to "LEARN" before he even starts to get better at it, that is the reality where he stands. 

Clarkson is the better player right now not just because he is more NBA ready, it's because the only thing LaVine does better than him is dunk.    Clarkson pretty much trumps him elsewhere and the fact he improved his jumpshot in the same span of time LaVine's has stayed the same as it was in the back half of the season shows that one has made progress and one has not thus far.

Does it mean LaVine won't be a force in 5 years?  No it does not. But we aren't in 5 years from now where LaVine has to learn everything about everything first before he gets good at it and until then will try to get by on his athleticism and off ball shot chucking because that's pretty much all he can do at the moment.

 

And when it comes to Kittles vs Kobe.  You could find MANY things Kobe did that was better than kittles in terms of his complete game or things that were right there about to take him over the top, and this was a 17 year old we were talking about too with all this.

 

 

LaVine is no Kobe, nor will he ever be, and this situation is a lot different as LaVine has a lot LESS going for him as it currently stands to the completeness of his game in comparison to Clarkson.  That's just the truth no matter how much you wish it wasn't.  

Trying to deflect it to "OH YOU WOULD HAVE SAID KITTLES WAS BETTER THAN KOBE!" Shows how much rope you're running out of.  Don't even try that joke. 


Edited by Majesty, August 04, 2014 - 12:15 AM.

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#66 lakersp4p

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Posted August 04, 2014 - 01:41 AM

Remember people

Using majesty's logic.
Kerry kitties was better than Kobe back in 1996...

 

WTF...really dude?
i just can't take u seriously



#67 TKainZero

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Posted August 05, 2014 - 09:54 AM

As rookies

Kittles averaged more ppg
Than Kobe got mpg

You saying clarkson is better right now that Levine is the same story that people said in 1996 about kittles v Kobe.

And for thier first 2 nba seasons. Kittles was better than Kobe.


Levine is 10x the prospect clarkson is.
Both have about the same chance of being out of the league in 5 years. But Levine has way better chance of being on an all-star team than clarkson.


I don't get your love for clarkson.
You never said one word about him before he was drafted, now you spit out 10,000 words a day on him.

Slo-mo had been my favorite prospect for over a year and a half, and if you combined all my ravings for slo-mo it wouldn't reach 10% of the nonsense you are pushing for clarkson..


This is a laker board
And every laker off season, lakers fans go nuts for lakers 2nf round picks

Morris, goudelock, character, ebanks. And many more over the years

The only one no one cared about wqs the not one that turned out okay! Sacre...

And any other decent player the lakers drafte they traded...


How about this...
Do you think toney Douglas or clarkson?
Toney Douglas has played mins in the nba. And the nba finals...

I would be surprised if clarkson turns out any better than toney Douglas.

#68 Majesty

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Posted August 05, 2014 - 11:55 AM

Thing is everything I say about Clarkson is backed up by results, stats and progress he's actually showed. Everything you say about LaVine is where you hope he'll reach IF he learns the game.

Kobe already knew the game and had a complete one and just had to get it up to NBA speed. LaVine does not know the game, not only does he have to get up to NBA speed, he has to LEARN the game and then get whatever he learned upo to NBA speed.

It took Gerald Green 9 years like I said to finally find his groove and eventually he had to settle on just being a good 3 point shooter slasher. That's much easier to be as a 3. But LaVine is at a position where its a dime a dozen. He is trying to be a point guard(he won't be one) whom shoulders the most responsibility on the team and is gonna have defenses zeroed in to him while also having the responsibility to find his teammates. Stuff he's never had to do. So he has to learn the game, excel at the game and also learn to be a leader.

Clarkson has already been given those types of roles and had to endure them in college and more used to being shouldered with it and excelling at it.

Clarkson has less he'll have to learn in order to make an impact.

LaVine has a higher upside but because of how raw and unpolished and inexperienced his game is he has 99% of things he has to learn FIRST and then he has to excel at them. That's a tall tall order for a kid that couldn't get off the bench in college and struggled with heavier responsibilities in both college and the summer league no less.

You're asking LaVine to master things he hasn't even learned yet nor ever had to do at any point in his basketball career within his first 3 years. Rest assured if Minni is bad enough they WILL replace him, and will do it easily. And the chances of LaVine still not being 'ready' by year 3 is high.

Now they could obviously throw LaVine into the lions den and let him struggle for 2 years in an important role and hope he gets it by year 3. But they will sacrifice games in the process and there are guys like Mudiay coming up in the coming draft that is 10 times the player LaVine is despite his athleticism. The only thing LaVine has going for him at the moment is hus athleticism. You couldn't say that about Kobe vs Kittles which is why its a joke comparison.

As I said, Kobe it was just about getting his already complete gane to NBA speed. With LaVine its actually learning the NBA game,learning how to lead a team(which you can't do from the bench in college), learning to excel at it and THEN getting it to NBA speed.

Lavine is HIGH risk high reward for that reason.

And with Wiggins coming to the T'wolves potentially LaVine is gonna have to learn to be a point guard before Rubio leaves cause he isn't starting over Wiggins at the 2. So if he doesn't get it in his first year he could wind up staying on the bench till Minni replaces him.

It'd be nice if he had 3 years to kind of develop but if Wiggins comes he's gonna have to do it a lot sooner cause if not and minni sucks next year there's point guards and shooting guards that are more well rounded than LaVine currently is. Stress to say I'd they land Mudiay, LaVine is as good as gone.

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#69 TKainZero

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Posted August 05, 2014 - 12:19 PM

It took Gerald green 9 years to figure it out... But he has... And he had the talent for teams to keep giving him shots

Levine will take years to develope. And I hope minny lets him play. Like the Greek freak last year... Dude was not ready, but the bucks let him play, and by the end of the year, it was clear dude should have gone number 1.

Levine wasn't to be a pg, and I think thats a good think, if he wants to develope his passing skills and court vision, but he is a SG and I think once he plays with Rubio, he will figure that out.

Levine at SG
Wiggins at sf.

They can play together
Unless you think shabaz mouhammed will be starting at sf( one ucla player i didn't like)

Remeber, Kobe was a BACKUP pg when he entered the league.
I could see Levine coming off the bench if they start shabaz. Learning pg duties. Minny was already running 2 PGs a lot of the time anyway (Ricky, alexy, and some jj barea)

Minny if they do the trade has serious young pieces
Dieng is one of my favorites (no idea why he slide so far in the draft, no idea why he didn't get more mins during season) and I wasn't shocked he started putting up 20 point 20 rebound games. (They guy is amazing. I think everyone was so drunk on anthoney Davis no one watched him... He went vs anthoney Davis. And shut ad down in that title game... Yea to look it up)


Levine wiggins shabaz bennet dieng

Thats a franchise starting 5 in nba2k if i ever seen one

Levine has to learn the game. He doesn't know how to play basketball. But they can teach him. I'm not high on Levine at all. He was my 3rd choice of ucla guards last season.

I still love slo-mo
And I think Jordan Adams could be a top 20sg from the start (he does nothing spectacular but eerything solid) and Adams is in a perfect spot. He and tony allen will form one of the better SG combos in he nba

I have no idea what the spurs will do with slo-mo

#70 Majesty

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Posted August 05, 2014 - 12:36 PM

The thing is the best case scenario for Minni this year WOULD be to play Wiggins at the 2 and LaVine at the 2 with Rubio at the 1 and just embrace sucking this year and developing those guys.  Also getting rid of Pek's contract and starting Dieng. 

Going into this season with a lineup of 

Rubio
LaVine
Wiggins
Thad. Young
Dieng

Would probably the best case scenario if they feel like rebuilding.   

Heck why not gamble and offer Pek and Rubio to the Celtics for Rondo?

Anyway if Minni wants to truly develop the talent they would need a starting lineup like that.  The trade will be telling.  If they unload Kevin Martin in this Kevin Love trade(to Philly for example) then LaVine may have a chance as they'll be a lottery team who can risk starting him at the 2.  But if not then LaVine will be back coming off the bench which won't help him much unless he got 6 man minutes. 


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#71 Lakersfan1211

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Posted September 29, 2014 - 10:12 PM

Zach LaVine: "My favorite player is Kobe, but if he's in front of me, I'm going at him like anyone else."



#72 Massacre

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Posted October 25, 2014 - 09:48 AM



Ummm
iyjywo.jpg

#73    

   

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Posted October 25, 2014 - 11:55 AM

Caught that live on the league pass yesterday. Crowd definitely noticed, lol.

 

I'm definitely looking forward to watching Minni this season, even if they likely lose a lot of games, at least they'll have some fun guys to watch.


yo.


#74 Majesty

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Posted October 25, 2014 - 03:00 PM



Ummm


rookie Gerald Green. 


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#75 bigvee

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Posted October 25, 2014 - 03:06 PM

Wow this is an awesome argument lololol!! Majesty going to work as usual. Were you ever on a debate team Maj? Or maybe you're a lawyer?

 

Long posts =/= good arguments



#76 kball

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Posted October 26, 2014 - 09:10 AM

Blake is the best in game dunker ive ever seen on a regular basis. And i've seen many.

Others include

Dr. J

Connie Hawkins

David Thompson

Kobe

AI

Michael Cooper

MJ

 

And a bunch of centers who lose points do to height and positioning on floor.

 

Looking forward to seeing the kid play though as i didnt follow him in college


Praying for 1. Kobe's Health (looks pretty good so far), 2. High Draft Pick (Randle...injured game #1.*sigh*) 3. Miracle Trade (Not yet), 4. Quality Free Agent (Boozer, kind of, Davis, nice upside!), 5. Brilliant Coaching Hire (Byron!...but the jury is out)

 


#77 LakeShow805

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Posted October 26, 2014 - 03:00 PM

Blake is the best in game dunker ive ever seen on a regular basis. And i've seen many.

Others include

Dr. J

Connie Hawkins

David Thompson

Kobe

AI

Michael Cooper

MJ

 

And a bunch of centers who lose points do to height and positioning on floor.

 

Looking forward to seeing the kid play though as i didnt follow him in college

nah Vince Carter is bru.


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#78 kball

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Posted October 26, 2014 - 03:32 PM

nah Vince Carter is bru.

Oops. He should have absolutely been on list


Praying for 1. Kobe's Health (looks pretty good so far), 2. High Draft Pick (Randle...injured game #1.*sigh*) 3. Miracle Trade (Not yet), 4. Quality Free Agent (Boozer, kind of, Davis, nice upside!), 5. Brilliant Coaching Hire (Byron!...but the jury is out)

 


#79 Massacre

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Posted October 26, 2014 - 05:53 PM

On a serious note, VC is probably the best dunker the league has ever seen and I don't see that changing any time soon.
iyjywo.jpg




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