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Here's Why Kobe Bryant Is The Greatest Shooting Guard Ever

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#41 Naismith

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 06:56 PM

What else we gonna do while we wait for Kobe to win his 6th ring? :laughing:

This thread comes up every damn offseason 

 

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#42 Paris

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 06:58 PM

MJ is better overall than Kobe in every aspect of the game except for 3 pt shooting which he was effective at when needed.  It's not a knock on Kobe to not be as great as Jordan.  I mean when did #2 best SG of all time become a bad thing?  It's not like Kobe is being considered 2nd best to Wade or Tmac.  MJ is in most circles considered the greatest player to ever pick up a ball. 

 


Kobe is more skilled offensively then Jordan ever was. But Jordan is still better becuase he was just toooooo dominant.


Edited by Paris, June 17, 2014 - 07:04 PM.


#43 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 07:47 PM

 I am not disputing that Kobe is a great scorer. Who would dispute that??  Kobe is however a volume shooter who relies on the foul line to add to his point totals more than Jordan. Jordan just took better shots and made them more consistently. Seriously if you had a choice between a player that shot 50% for his career or a player that shot 45.5% and averaged fewer ppg who would you consider the better and more efficient scorer?

 

Those are just facts that don't require interpretation because they speak for themselves. Jordan was a better scorer. Now he may not have won a game of horse against Kobe, but I have absolutely no doubt that if the two  could have ever played in an NBA Finals in their primes MJ would out perform Kobe. AND that is not based upon personal bias. That is based upon the distinct differences in Finals performances that Clearly favor MJ as the more effective and reliable player.

 

Not necessarily. The defenses that Jordan had to face throughout his career, while more physical, weren't anywhere near as complex as those that Kobe had to face. As much as people cry over how soft the league has gotten and of the lack of physicality, the truth is that perimeter defenses have never been more complex or as geared towards stopping individuals. In Jordan's time the only way to send two guys at a player was to fully commit and leave another person open. A defense like the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics or any of the Spurs teams of the last decade would not be in existence.

 

The perimeter defenses of the 80s and 90s were almost nonexistent. If you were an elite offensive player, all you needed to do was be able to take your man one-on-one and score over him. If the defense ever sent a second guy at you via double-team or moving over to impede your path to the basket, all you needed to do was pass off to the open man because there would ALWAYS be someone open if two guys were on one player. That's how Jordan average 11+ assists in the '91 finals. You couldn't play off your man ready to give help or play an area of the floor. You absolutely had to commit to a man defensively. That's part of the reason why so many perimeter players from that period had such high FG percentages. A team with a defensive scheme will always be more effective than one defender in containing a perimeter player.

 

It's no coincidence that some of the most dominant defensive teams in NBA history (in terms of FG percentages, point differential and the like) have come post-2000 with the rule changes. Yes, perimeter players draw more fouls than they used to, but they also don't get the same sort of easy looks 15 feet out.

 

Jordan was definitely a smarter offensive player and picked his spots better than Kobe (who forces a ton because he's the best "bad-shot maker" ever), but I don't believe FG% or his scoring numbers are a good indicator of him being a superior scorer. Kobe had an offensive arsenal in his peak that no one in NBA history could match. You had to have a second man ready to impede him even if he was beyond the arc. There were some games where teams would literally double team him 25 feet out. That's just insane. He played through some of the most defensively oppressive teams in the history of the league and still got his.

 

He's a superior offensive player to Jordan (mostly due to being a better shooter), but Jordan is simply more complete all-around. Jordan has Kobe beat in many facets of the game, but I just can't give him the nod as a scorer.



#44 kidpolean

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 08:50 PM

I think they are really close but I also think that Magic is the greatest guard of all time. Legacy, as in awards and rings and not actual skill, is all that separates them. I truly believe that if Kobe came first than people would say he was better. Its hard to catch someone that is treated as a god. People give unrealistic goals to people that try to dethrone Jordan. U need like 8 rings, 7 MVPs and more popular shoes lol.

#45 MrKnowItAll

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 09:26 PM

Kobe hasn't even finished playing. Kobe can still win another one and match Jordan if the FO can put a good team around him. Even tho I have some faith in the FO, I think they still have time to make up for it and to help Kobe get another ring. I'm not down for waiting 7 years to rebuild this team. I want Lakers basketball, deep playoff thrillers, big moments and most importantly, winning. This team will be on top of the basketball world again soon, Kobe will be on top of the basketball again soon. Check the name. Mark my words.

#46 lalala03

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 09:34 PM

Kobe has a counter argument for almost all things Jordan. The biggest difference in a Kobe vs Jordan comparison is SHOT Selection!! Just can not defend that!! (Forces shot)NO KOBE!!....(Swoosh) YES KOBE!! smh

#47 Naismith

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 10:44 PM

I think they are really close but I also think that Magic is the greatest guard of all time. Legacy, as in awards and rings and not actual skill, is all that separates them. I truly believe that if Kobe came first than people would say he was better. Its hard to catch someone that is treated as a god. People give unrealistic goals to people that try to dethrone Jordan. U need like 8 rings, 7 MVPs and more popular shoes lol.

So Jordan's incredible finals record and superior stats are just things that don't matter. :laughing:



#48 Naismith

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Posted June 17, 2014 - 11:45 PM

Not necessarily. The defenses that Jordan had to face throughout his career, while more physical, weren't anywhere near as complex as those that Kobe had to face. As much as people cry over how soft the league has gotten and of the lack of physicality, the truth is that perimeter defenses have never been more complex or as geared towards stopping individuals. In Jordan's time the only way to send two guys at a player was to fully commit and leave another person open. A defense like the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics or any of the Spurs teams of the last decade would not be in existence.

 

The perimeter defenses of the 80s and 90s were almost nonexistent. If you were an elite offensive player, all you needed to do was be able to take your man one-on-one and score over him. If the defense ever sent a second guy at you via double-team or moving over to impede your path to the basket, all you needed to do was pass off to the open man because there would ALWAYS be someone open if two guys were on one player. That's how Jordan average 11+ assists in the '91 finals. You couldn't play off your man ready to give help or play an area of the floor. You absolutely had to commit to a man defensively. That's part of the reason why so many perimeter players from that period had such high FG percentages. A team with a defensive scheme will always be more effective than one defender in containing a perimeter player.

 

It's no coincidence that some of the most dominant defensive teams in NBA history (in terms of FG percentages, point differential and the like) have come post-2000 with the rule changes. Yes, perimeter players draw more fouls than they used to, but they also don't get the same sort of easy looks 15 feet out.

 

Jordan was definitely a smarter offensive player and picked his spots better than Kobe (who forces a ton because he's the best "bad-shot maker" ever), but I don't believe FG% or his scoring numbers are a good indicator of him being a superior scorer. Kobe had an offensive arsenal in his peak that no one in NBA history could match. You had to have a second man ready to impede him even if he was beyond the arc. There were some games where teams would literally double team him 25 feet out. That's just insane. He played through some of the most defensively oppressive teams in the history of the league and still got his.

 

He's a superior offensive player to Jordan (mostly due to being a better shooter), but Jordan is simply more complete all-around. Jordan has Kobe beat in many facets of the game, but I just can't give him the nod as a scorer.

Results matter. Apparently the fact that Defenses could get away with steering you and just knocking the hell out of players is lost on today's apologist fan. I have been watching the NBA for many decades and I know that today's game is a 3 ball, transition, high pick and roll league where if you sneeze on a guy it's a foul. Jordan's day had incredible big men and phenomenal scorers at the one  two  and three positions. The whole idea of the Jordan rules was to stop a man with the best first step in the game who was absolutely unguardable one on one. The concept of doubling, playing a spot on the floor and rotating the defense just to keep him from getting to the middle of the floor  was a defensive stratagem designed to contain the best player in the world. The Detroit Pistons who were an incredible defensive team felt they had to adjust their entire defensive scheme when they played Jordan.

 

I've seen plenty of defenses and plenty of great defenders, but I have only seen whole teams gear up to stop one man regularly and fail. That man was Michael Jordan. His career ppg average is obscene. His true shooting percentage is fantastic at 56.86 where Kobe's true fg% is 55.52  

 

Jordan's playoff averages decimate Bryant's it's not even close. Yet because Bryant is a better jump shooter he is a better scorer :laughing:. That's the stuff LAKER fans believe everywhere else there's no question MJ is the superior player. Arguing that Kobe can make more circus shots is a little ridiculous. 

 

I've seen Kobe play and even in his early prime he was not as good as Jordan. Kobe is smaller less muscular and has a vertical jump that pales in comparison to MJ at a very mundane 38", Michael's vertical was 48" that's a ten inch differential!!. The athleticism of MJ is legendary. Kobe became the most prolific jump shooter in the game whereas MJ was a guy that could blow by anyone. If you played off of him he'd hit a midrange shot if you left him alone behind the arc he'd make you pay. If you bodied him up he'd blow buy you.

 

Magic in his autobiography admitted that he used to think he could guard MJ. He was anxious to play him and he was certain that based on his wing span height and weight advantage that he could beat MJ in a game of one on one. Magic arranged that one on one game at his home and said: " When I put my hand on his waist it was like I was touching a stone wall. I realized then I couldn't Guard Michael."

 

I will give Kobe the footwork and the circus shot, but it's all pretty silly. Jordan just blew by people there wasn't a need for a bunch of dancing. Don't get me wrong Jordan could juke you outta your shoes but he was more physically gifted and just beat people off the dribble and posterized people. 



#49 Majesty

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 12:29 AM

Not necessarily. The defenses that Jordan had to face throughout his career, while more physical, weren't anywhere near as complex as those that Kobe had to face. As much as people cry over how soft the league has gotten and of the lack of physicality, the truth is that perimeter defenses have never been more complex or as geared towards stopping individuals. In Jordan's time the only way to send two guys at a player was to fully commit and leave another person open. A defense like the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics or any of the Spurs teams of the last decade would not be in existence.

 

The perimeter defenses of the 80s and 90s were almost nonexistent. If you were an elite offensive player, all you needed to do was be able to take your man one-on-one and score over him. If the defense ever sent a second guy at you via double-team or moving over to impede your path to the basket, all you needed to do was pass off to the open man because there would ALWAYS be someone open if two guys were on one player. That's how Jordan average 11+ assists in the '91 finals. You couldn't play off your man ready to give help or play an area of the floor. You absolutely had to commit to a man defensively. That's part of the reason why so many perimeter players from that period had such high FG percentages. A team with a defensive scheme will always be more effective than one defender in containing a perimeter player.

 

It's no coincidence that some of the most dominant defensive teams in NBA history (in terms of FG percentages, point differential and the like) have come post-2000 with the rule changes. Yes, perimeter players draw more fouls than they used to, but they also don't get the same sort of easy looks 15 feet out.

 

Jordan was definitely a smarter offensive player and picked his spots better than Kobe (who forces a ton because he's the best "bad-shot maker" ever), but I don't believe FG% or his scoring numbers are a good indicator of him being a superior scorer. Kobe had an offensive arsenal in his peak that no one in NBA history could match. You had to have a second man ready to impede him even if he was beyond the arc. There were some games where teams would literally double team him 25 feet out. That's just insane. He played through some of the most defensively oppressive teams in the history of the league and still got his.

 

He's a superior offensive player to Jordan (mostly due to being a better shooter), but Jordan is simply more complete all-around. Jordan has Kobe beat in many facets of the game, but I just can't give him the nod as a scorer.


I was waiting on Real Deal to say something this. But this is awesome too as you beat him to it  ;)


Edited by Majesty, June 18, 2014 - 12:30 AM.

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#50 Jody Smokes

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 08:27 AM

LAKER is right.  I think most can agree that Kobe offensively skill wise is more superior.  That has more to do with the advancement of the game than him just being better.  Dwight probably has more post skill than the vids Ive seen Wilt dominating in lol. You learn from the previous generation and add to it.  Guys watch moves and develop new ones over time.  The mental part of the game is where MJ was superior amongst other things and that counts the most.  It still doesn't create an argument that Kobe should be considered a better player than MJ, which is some want to do. 


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#51 Jody Smokes

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 08:28 AM

I for one never liked MJ and still don't care for him, personally I like when people make an argument for Kareem as the greatest. I was a Penny fan at that time. 


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#52 kingkobe

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 08:31 AM

Here's why MJ is the Greatest SG ever

Six Finals six Rings

DPOY

League MVP 5 times

6 Time Finals MVP

10 time all NBA First team

10 Scoring Titles

Better career FG% Than Kobe

And it's just silly to compare the teams that Kobe had to over come in the playoffs versus what Jordan had to overcome. Jordan had to overcome three Dynasty teams. How many Dynasties did Kobe have to defeat?????????


Jordan overcomed the pistons 2 titles and an old laker team. Its comparable the east was tough when jordan was in the league kobe had a tough west to overcome spurs kings phoenix with stoudamire, nash, and a loaded roster utah with a young deron williams houston which had some good teams. Not to mention kobe took down the big three in boston and had double the points and almost as many rebounds as dwight in the finals.

But u cant argue with six for six and the handcheck rule

#53 Jody Smokes

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 08:49 AM

No the Bulls overcame those teams with MJ as the best player and LA the team overcame those teams with Kobe as the best player in 2 out of the 5 title runs.  This whole 1 player overcame a team or won this or that team award thing is nonsense.  Players win MVPs and scoring titles, teams win championships.

 

Jordan overcomed the pistons 2 titles and an old laker team. Its comparable the east was tough when jordan was in the league kobe had a tough west to overcome spurs kings phoenix with stoudamire, nash, and a loaded roster utah with a young deron williams houston which had some good teams. Not to mention kobe took down the big three in boston and had double the points and almost as many rebounds as dwight in the finals.

But u cant argue with six for six and the handcheck rule


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#54 DaveGrumbles

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 09:32 AM

When did 'overcoming' include waiting until teams got old or retired? The Bulls didn't 'overcome the Celts or Pistons dynasties...they were already done.

 

If Jordan and the Bulls didn't exist those two teams would still have the same number of rings they currently have. Age, injuries and league expansion defeated those teams not Michael Jordan.



#55 Chick Stern

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 10:15 AM

Kobe has a counter argument for almost all things Jordan. The biggest difference in a Kobe vs Jordan comparison is SHOT Selection!! Just can not defend that!! (Forces shot)NO KOBE!!....(Swoosh) YES KOBE!! smh

Jordan selected to rarely shoot from the arc.


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#56 Naismith

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 10:39 AM

I for one never liked MJ and still don't care for him, personally I like when people make an argument for Kareem as the greatest. I was a Penny fan at that time. 

Yeah it's true everybody forgets how incredible Kareem was. 6 rings 6 mvps  there will never be another like him.



#57 Saber

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 11:57 AM

I think the main argument about Jordan being better than Kobe is the 6 rings and the better overall stats because MJ was the go to guy for Chicago since day one, while Kobe had to share spotlight and touches with one of the greatest centers and scorers for like 6-7 years.



#58 epicwolf

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 01:02 PM

Great. Another Kobe vs MJ thread.    Looking forward to a Kobe vs Lebron thread coming soon to a messageboard near you.


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#59 gque24

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 01:08 PM

More of MJ reign was during watered down part of NBA = he had Stern & refs on his side = there was no internet to expose MJ for who he really was during his reign.

 

Kobe is playing vs better individual talents who ahtleticism mirrors Kobe & some surpasses Kobe; after Colorado Stern started creating reasons not to give Kobe MVP & refs began cheating him on regular = internet age built feel good storylines in order to shatter those storylines ruin guys in public light

 

no1 coming up will ever go 6 for 6 in finals with mvps to boot = but thats cuz the game & its players will not allow that today so if your a hooper & you understand the gm judge them talent for talent = theres nothing in MJ arsenal that Kobe cant & hasnt already done 1000sX over

I think the main argument about Jordan being better than Kobe is the 6 rings and the better overall stats because MJ was the go to guy for Chicago since day one, while Kobe had to share spotlight and touches with one of the greatest centers and scorers for like 6-7 years.


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#60 RobBlake

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Posted June 18, 2014 - 01:11 PM

you're right 

 

 

lol. 

 

1.34% difference in true shooting percentages lol.


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