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#61 Chad

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Posted January 08, 2014 - 10:00 PM

That Nuggets team only won 17 games the year before Melo got there, and 42 the year after. Melo actually makes a difference. That team wouldn't even sniff the playoffs without him.


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#62 DanishLakerFan

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Posted January 08, 2014 - 10:05 PM

That Nuggets team only won 17 games the year before Melo got there, and 42 the year after. Melo actually makes a difference. That team wouldn't even sniff the playoffs without him.

I dont think Melo is a bad player. On the right team he'd be fantastic, but he's just not the type of player i'd want to build around. 

 

The lakers should overpay for anyone anymore - Kobe should be the last bad deal they ever made. 

 

The difference between K-Love and Melo, other than Melo would cost about 6 million more each year, is that Melo has to be the focal point of the offense. Love doesn't. Also, Love is a lot better on the defensive end than Melo, which says a lot, since Love is average on that end. 


Edited by DanishLakerFan, January 08, 2014 - 10:07 PM.


#63 lakers1o1

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Posted January 08, 2014 - 10:06 PM

At the end of the day it's a business and anyone during the time when the Lakers acquired both Howard and Nash (Laker fan or not) believed the organization and franchise were God like... obviously now that things have turned south it is the opposite.  But there wasn't anything the Lakers could have done otherwise that would have changed things.  Bynum wasn't going to take us anywhere, Gasol would be just as bad, and you also have to factor in health concerns and the injuries that have piled up.

 

This generation of basketball is much different from the previous era of Shaq and Kobe and don't even try comparing it to the Van Exel years.  That perspective and way of building an organization doesn't always guarantee success.  There are prime examples such as Cleveland, Toronto, Sacramento, Utah, Milwaukee, Charlotte, and basically a majority of the eastern conference that have tried time and time again to build through the draft but manage to only get so far.

 

Then you have the holy grail of all organizations in the Spurs whom somehow always manage to make all the right moves in order to stay in contention.  Mitch and the FO have made many great moves over the past decade that are now being overshadowed due to 1) Dwight leaving, 2) Nash's injuries, and 3) Injuries and health in general.

 

You also have to consider the fact that players in this day and age are not like those of before.  Qualities such as loyalty and patience isn't something you see anymore.  Guys want the money and the fame rather than the success and the idea that they are playing for a historic franchise.  Even if the Lakers developed key pieces that they want to move forward with, their is no guarantee the player will want to continue and help rebuild.

 

Everything you have said is very easily stated but much harder to be done.. if it were that easy, the  90% of the Eastern Conference wouldn't be complete turd.

 

Also Realize all the past NBA Championship winners.

 

2012-2013 - Heat (Gathered picks that never panned out but hit the jackpot signing the big 3)

2011 - Mavericks (Acquired Tyson Chandler and Jason Kidd which changed everything, no youngster)

2009-2010 - Lakers (Self Explanatory, obviously no draft picks involved winning back 2 back)

2008 - Celtics (Draft pick rebuild for years that never worked than signed KG and Shuttlesworth)

2007- Spurs (Solid core for several years, amazing FO)

2006 - Heat (Acquired Shaq)

2005- Spurs (Horry, Parker, Manu, Duncan, Bowen, old but experienced core)

2004 - Pistons (Saddest year I even experienced as a Laker fan)

2003 - Spurs (THE SINGLE EXCEPTION, Parker rookie, Manu Rookie, and THE GENERAL delcining)

2000-2002 - Lakers (Back 2 Back 2 Back)

 

A majority of the teams that won had a solid core that wasn't necessarily built through draft but rather trades and free agency.


Edited by lakers1o1, January 08, 2014 - 10:20 PM.

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#64 kball

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 03:19 AM

Building through the draft year after year is for suckers for the most part. Especially with youngsters leaving college early. I'd rather be a Kahwi than a kyrie right now. Contributing in lots of areas on a good team and not needing to be thee guy on an awful team


Praying for 1. Kobe's Health, 2. High Draft Pick (Randle!) 3. Miracle Trade (Not yet), 4. Quality Free Agent (Boozer, kind of), 5. Brilliant Coaching Hire (Byron!...but the jury is out)

 


#65 Jody Smokes

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 08:57 AM

None of those teams were on the brink of losing their generational player with nothing replace him with either.  Spurs got Duncan, Mavs had Dirk in the fold, the Heat had D Wade.  We lost D12.  Not even close to the same situations at this point.  Pistons may be the only exception but they built a good team judicially not by overpaying stars. 

 

Bottom line the Lakers weren't built via free agency like guys seem to believe.  The foundation of where we are at was set in the early 90s.  We had a good attractive team where great draft picks were used to set things in motion.  Shaq was attracted to this team and Vlade was traded for Kobe.  Fish was drafted, the front office created a positive basketball environment along with Phil's genius coaching.

 

Nothing this org is doing now resembles anything they do in regards to the success in the past.  The Lakers aren't an exception to good business practices.  Go read the loads of books on how the better corporations have survived adversity and look at the examples of some big shots that ran stuff forever folded.  The common theme is adapt or die, adapt or die.  Recently the Lakers have shown they don't want to adapt.  They still have time.  Not quite the Cowboys yet...


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#66 noknife

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:00 AM

None of those teams were on the brink of losing their generational player with nothing replace him with either.  Spurs got Duncan, Mavs had Dirk in the fold, the Heat had D Wade.  We lost D12.  Not even close to the same situations at this point.  Pistons may be the only exception but they built a good team judicially not by overpaying stars. 

 

Bottom line the Lakers weren't built via free agency like guys seem to believe.  The foundation of where we are at was set in the early 90s.  We had a good attractive team where great draft picks were used to set things in motion.  Shaq was attracted to this team and Vlade was traded for Kobe.  Fish was drafted, the front office created a positive basketball environment along with Phil's genius coaching.

 

Nothing this org is doing now resembles anything they do in regards to the success in the past.  The Lakers aren't an exception to good business practices.  Go read the loads of books on how the better corporations have survived adversity and look at the examples of some big shots that ran stuff forever folded.  The common theme is adapt or die, adapt or die.  Recently the Lakers have shown they don't want to adapt.  They still have time.  Not quite the Cowboys yet...

 

In fairness to the Lakers and everyone else, the new CBA just went in to effect, and the dominant teams currently were constructed around the old CBA.  I think it is too early to judge how any team has adapted to the shift in the landscape of the NBA.  Adapt or die is always the rule though, so whomever adapts correctly will be rewarded.



#67 LakerGeezer

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:11 AM

None of those teams were on the brink of losing their generational player with nothing replace him with either.  Spurs got Duncan, Mavs had Dirk in the fold, the Heat had D Wade.  We lost D12.  Not even close to the same situations at this point.  Pistons may be the only exception but they built a good team judicially not by overpaying stars. 

 

Bottom line the Lakers weren't built via free agency like guys seem to believe.  The foundation of where we are at was set in the early 90s.  We had a good attractive team where great draft picks were used to set things in motion.  Shaq was attracted to this team and Vlade was traded for Kobe.  Fish was drafted, the front office created a positive basketball environment along with Phil's genius coaching.

 

Nothing this org is doing now resembles anything they do in regards to the success in the past.  The Lakers aren't an exception to good business practices.  Go read the loads of books on how the better corporations have survived adversity and look at the examples of some big shots that ran stuff forever folded.  The common theme is adapt or die, adapt or die.  Recently the Lakers have shown they don't want to adapt.  They still have time.  Not quite the Cowboys yet...

Well said.  The "we're the Lakers man, everyone wants to play here" mantra is valid to a very limited point.  Ultimately, talented players want to get paid AND win.  Right, now we cannot really offer either thing, except maybe to one guy.  Some may take a small pay cut to win, others may chase a few extra dollars, but they are not going to give up both in the prime of their careers just to play for a storied franchise.



#68 LakerGeezer

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:43 AM

In fairness to the Lakers and everyone else, the new CBA just went in to effect, and the dominant teams currently were constructed around the old CBA.  I think it is too early to judge how any team has adapted to the shift in the landscape of the NBA.  Adapt or die is always the rule though, so whomever adapts correctly will be rewarded.

What we do know is that the "old" approach will not work strictly from a financial standpoint.  What we don't fully yet know is how creative GMs may work within the financial constraints of the new CBA and still build competitive rosters.

 

Some will contend that Mitch was a genius at working under the old CBA rules. Maybe.  Assuming arguendo that he was (I think of him more as a Brian Cashman type GM), he has yet to show any acumen under the new CBA, while other GMs seem to have (Phoenix, Toronto, Boston, Orlando).  

 

Some guys keep pointing to Miami as the example we want to emulate.  Attract a "Big 3" and the rest of the roster will almost fill itself out.  Is that realistic though?  Wade was already there and still in his prime.  Wade, Bosh and Lebron all agreed to reduced $ to stay/ come. And they are able to cruise through the regular season in an anemic Eastern Conference.

 

How do we compare?  An old and injured superstar sucking up  a big chunk of the salary cap.  A state with one of the highest income taxes around.  No meaningful draft picks save one.  An ultra competitive Western Conference.  A current roster of journeymen and spare parts.  A bottom 5 in the league coach.


Edited by LakerGeezer, January 09, 2014 - 09:44 AM.


#69 BasketballIQ

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 03:11 PM

U failed to acknowledge that we Wanted Kibe to retire here with a contract that was comparable to his WORTH TO THE FRANCHISE, not simply based on the SCALE of the CBA.
Orlando , the Suns and other are years away from a title with no superstar.
As of right now, Miami is the standard for the new CBA.

#70 Jackson

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 03:39 PM

Sorry guys. But this whole "building through the draft" thing has yet to be proven. I'd rather just clear up cap space, and sign all-stars.



#71 Scooter123

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 03:56 PM

I wouldn't compare Phoenix to Orlando.  The  Suns are most definitely a playoff team. 

 

The Heat is the old standard, they will not be able to afford three super stars for very much longer.  They need to change or die. 

 

The new standard was set by Neil O'Shea, former GM of the Clippers who traded for an underpaid over-achieving Blake Griffin, and then miraculously got Chris Paul.  Then an untested rookie Deandre Jordan, who has proven to be a real find for the Clips. 

 

O'Shea has since left for greener pastures, e.g., Portland, which is probably the reason why Portland will be a tough playoff team this year.

 

Want to rebuild?  Get a GM like O'Shea--he's a proven winner. 

 

 

U failed to acknowledge that we Wanted Kibe to retire here with a contract that was comparable to his WORTH TO THE FRANCHISE, not simply based on the SCALE of the CBA.
Orlando , the Suns and other are years away from a title with no superstar.
As of right now, Miami is the standard for the new CBA.


Edited by Scooter123, January 09, 2014 - 04:19 PM.


#72 LakerGeezer

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 06:27 PM


As of right now, Miami is the standard for the new CBA.

OK, let's run with that.  Lebron is the 9th highest pad player in the NBA but considered by most to be the best player.  He has sacrificed huge $ for chances at rings.  By leaving Cleveland, he took $30m+ less, and had to take another haircut for the Heat to be able to afford him and Bosh.  IIRC, he left another $15m on the table to make the cap work.

 

Tim Duncan makes $10m a year, does not even rank in the top 50 in the league now.  He figured that he had made his money and was willing to sacrifice for the team to remain competitive.

 

There are other examples as well.

 

So how does Kobe compare in his latest contract?



#73 Jackson

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 06:41 PM

OK, let's run with that.  Lebron is the 9th highest pad player in the NBA but considered by most to be the best player.  He has sacrificed huge $ for chances at rings.  By leaving Cleveland, he took $30m+ less, and had to take another haircut for the Heat to be able to afford him and Bosh.  IIRC, he left another $15m on the table to make the cap work.

 

Tim Duncan makes $10m a year, does not even rank in the top 50 in the league now.  He figured that he had made his money and was willing to sacrifice for the team to remain competitive.

 

There are other examples as well.

 

So how does Kobe compare in his latest contract?

Kobe ranks number one because he understands that these NBA teams would be [expletive] without their respective superstars. He took what he deserves. LeBron complained about his pay last year, and EXPECT him to get a nice payday this summer. Look, and watch NBA players start demanding the same pay that Kobe got. Kobe has started a new trend without us realizing it. The only reason LeBron took less was to put the "0 rings" argument to rest. Expect nothing less but the max for LeBron (if he doesn't leave Miami) for the rest of his career.


Edited by Jackson, January 09, 2014 - 06:42 PM.


#74 Yellow_Evan

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 07:25 PM

We don't need a new GM. Mtich did it in 2008, and we'll do it again.



#75 LakerGeezer

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 07:36 PM

But Kobe's and Lebron's situations are different.  Lebron has one more prime-of-his-career contract to sign.  Kobe is an injured 35YO with many miles on him.  Completely different.



#76 Jody Smokes

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 07:42 PM

In order to have an intelligent convo about the pay Kobe should have we have to separate what he should be making in regards to his importance to the Lakers and NBA as an icon vs what he should be making in regards to building a competitive team.

 

You can make an argument that Kobe is worth every dime for the former if not more but as far as bball production and team building he isn't worth 48M over the next 2 years.  Not even close.  We don't even know how good he is going to be going forward.


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#77 DanishLakerFan

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:41 PM

In order to have an intelligent convo about the pay Kobe should have we have to separate what he should be making in regards to his importance to the Lakers and NBA as an icon vs what he should be making in regards to building a competitive team.

 

You can make an argument that Kobe is worth every dime for the former if not more but as far as bball production and team building he isn't worth 48M over the next 2 years.  Not even close.  We don't even know how good he is going to be going forward.

Agree. Kobe's worth to the franchise far exceeds his current salary, but his value as a basketballplayer is a different story. 

His production last year is probably worth around 23.5 million, but with his age and recent achilles injury i think giving him that extension was the wrong move. Especially since they easily could have waited or perhaps had a negotiation. It sounded like Kobe was just as surprised getting that big of a contract as everyone else.



#78 last stand 2.0

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:56 PM

You see where you draft, if you're in the top 5 or even luckier top 3 you draft your future star, and await Kevin love and Westbrook in 2015

If you are in the Gordon range at 6 and later you draft for the t-wolves and try to build a package around gasol, hill, for love

I think Aaron Gordon, s/t gasol, s/t hill and other pieces should be enough

That's how I'd approach it but that's also dependent on a lot of factors
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#79 Ham

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 10:01 PM

Sorry guys. But this whole "building through the draft" thing has yet to be proven. I'd rather just clear up cap space, and sign all-stars.

A mix of both wins championships


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#80 Jody Smokes

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Posted January 10, 2014 - 05:32 AM

Can't really do that.  That deal is contingent on Gasol and Hill actually wanting to play in Minny after their deals are up which is highly unlikely.

 

You see where you draft, if you're in the top 5 or even luckier top 3 you draft your future star, and await Kevin love and Westbrook in 2015

If you are in the Gordon range at 6 and later you draft for the t-wolves and try to build a package around gasol, hill, for love

I think Aaron Gordon, s/t gasol, s/t hill and other pieces should be enough

That's how I'd approach it but that's also dependent on a lot of factors


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