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ESPN Numbers Never Lie: Michael Jordan Vs. Kobe - Would Six Rings Put Kobe On Jordan's Level?


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#101 RobBlake

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Posted August 26, 2013 - 09:51 PM

i would give anything to see a finals vs a championship Bulls team led by jordan and a championship team led by kobe and shaq


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#102 BlueJab23

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Posted August 26, 2013 - 10:06 PM

 NBA is all about selling shoes. 

 

Yep. You nailed it. No one cares about winning championships. lol.

 

College players dream of joining the NBA to sell shoes. Not to win championship or to try to become the best basketball player.

 

Anyways back to the topic. How can anyone honestly say that Kobe is equal to Jordan? MJ NEVER lost any finals. In addition, every time Jordan won the finals he is always considered the best player in his team. 6 FMVP is just an incredible feat. That means he has more FMVP than the 2 greatest laker player in history either Kobe and Kareem or Kobe and Magic. He also has multiple MVPs and Scoring Titles. He also has more points than Kobe who is been playing for 17 years. 

 

Kobe also faced the greatest defensive teams in NBA history but that's another subject.

 

So Kobe faced the greatest defensive teams. Jordan did as well.



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Posted August 26, 2013 - 10:10 PM

When everything comes to end of Kobe's career

The list will be:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russel
Hakeem
Duncan


Top 10.

No LeBron?


yo.


#104 BlueJab23

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Posted August 26, 2013 - 10:13 PM

When everything comes to end of Kobe's career

The list will be:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russel
Hakeem
Duncan


Top 10.

 

Duncan seems way too low. I would put him above Hakeem, Shaq, and arguably Russell.



#105 LALakersFan4Life

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 12:16 AM

Duncan seems way too low. I would put him above Hakeem, Shaq, and arguably Russell.

Agreed. I'd say Timmy is better than Hakeem and maybe Shaq.



#106 LALakersFan4Life

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 12:17 AM

No LeBron?

Should be on there. LeBron is better than Duncan and Hakeem.



#107 Real Deal

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 12:38 AM

Youre just another google a stat guy. I wasn't being literal, I was making a point.

So...what was your point? Your statement was that anyone can put up 26 shots a night, on 45% FG or better, and play 40 minutes and do what Kobe and Mike do. Then you tell me that KAJ won an MVP in the 1985 Finals.


Why did he win the Finals MVP in 1985? Ah, because of his scoring (those are stats, by the way).

Magic Johnson: 18.3 PPG (49.4% FG), 6.8 RPG, 14.0 APG
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 25.7 PPG (60.4% FG), 9 RPG, 5.2 APG
James Worthy: 23.7 PPG (56.4% FG), 4.5 RPG, 3.2 APG

Of course, that was back when anyone COULD score 30 on any given night. Since you're so much older than me (I'll be 30 next month), I'm sure you saw the scores for those games.

GM1: Celtics 148, Lakers 114
GM2: Lakers 109, Celtics 102
GM3: Lakers 136, Celtics 111
GM4: Celtics 107, Lakers 105
GM5: Lakers 120, Celtics 111
GM6: Lakers 111, Celtics 100

 

The funny thing about the era that you praise so much is that defense was highly overrated.  In 1985, after the first round...there were 36 playoff games played...and JUST FIVE instances of a single team notching under 100 points.  Five...that's it.

 

And yes. Jordans competition at his position wasn't as good as who Kobe faced night in and out. And he damn sure didn't deal with what Kareem had to deal with for almost 20 years. My bad, Jordan was unable to perform at 38. I think Kareem was finals MVP at 38. I'm sure you'll google that. Let me know. I'm going off memory

Finals MVP is based on statistics, so we're going to do some work.

 

20.2 PPG (53.4% FG), 7.7 RPG, 3.5 APG

 

That's Kareem's statline in every 1985 playoff game ASIDE from the NBA Finals.  Looks like something a 2014 Pau Gasol would put up, huh?

 

The best part is, few saw that series.  I did, though, thanks to my cousin and VHS tapes...don't worry.  Kareem came out and laid an egg against Boston in the first game, when LA simply had their asses kicked in one of the two greatest games in Boston Celtics history (the other being in 2008, against us), and the Celtics figured they'd turn down the defensive pressure on him.  At one point, Kareem drove the entire length of the court, off his own rebound, and hit a sky hook.  Yes, Kareem, at 38...and the Celtics acted like spectators during the sequence.

 

Now, if you want to look away from numbers...Kareem doesn't get that Finals MVP award if Larry Bird didn't have a busted hand from a bar fight, sadly, because Bird and the Celtics would've defeated the Lakers.  Spit what you want, but it's the truth.  After his bar fight with that Boston bartender, Bird's shooting was so inconsistent, the Celtics were scrambling to find ways to defeat the Pistons, and it took Scott Wedman's big Game 6 (who came out of nowhere for them, after exiting his prime) to get it done.

 

This Boston team relied heavily on Bird.  McHale was the sixth man of the  year in 1985, after replacing Cedric Maxwell (who won the Finals MVP for the club in the 1981 Finals, lol), surely not the best PF in the league just yet (which he later became).  Bird was coming off a 1984 Finals MVP award, had a busted hand in 1985, then led his Celtics to a championship (and the 1986 Finals MVP award) after he healed up...as the Lakers lost to the Rockets, and Kareem shot under 50%, pulled down less than 7 boards a night against Hakeem (who was clearly better...he dumped 31 PPG and 11 RPG on Kareem that series).

 

Bird was, hands down, the best player in the NBA in 1985.  He was better than Magic, better than Michael (despite the incredible rookie season), and he was better than any other player you can name that year.  His 29/11/7 on 52% FG will go down as one of the most underrated performances in history, and it was because of his busted hand midway through the playoffs.  Boston three-peats without the injury.

 

You know why Kareem apologized to his teammates after Game 1?  He damn well KNEW he should've done better against Parish.  Boston's big man wasn't as great, defensively, as he was earlier in his career, and he didn't have the base to hold Kareem.  He didn't have the elevation to contest the sky hook (nobody could block it, aside from Wilt, but players like Hakeem contested it incredibly well, and KAJ admitted this).  Magic also knew he needed to get the ball down low to Kareem, and they fed him all series long, after that awful Game 1...and Boston played along, stupidly, because they were too afraid of Magic and Worthy.  In fact, wasn't this Worthy's coming-out party?  His three best playoff games that year...were all against Boston (28, 29, and 33-point games that proved he was a force to be reckoned with).  His Game 6 made up for Magic's craptastic shooting performance, and nearly matched what Kareem did.

 

----------

 

So let's go back to your statement.  If anyone can shoot 26+ times, 45% or better, drop 30 points (or whatever you stated), play 40+ minutes...then anyone can do what Kareem did in 1985.  In fact, he had two games of 30+ points in the playoffs...both against Boston.  One, he shot 26 shots to get (ironically), and the other, 28 shots...both playing 40+ minutes.

 

You know what, though?  Congrats...you found something Jordan didn't do.  Kareem won a Finals MVP award at 38 years old.  As I mentioned earlier, Cedric Maxwell won the Finals MVP for Boston in 1981 (over Bird).  Tony Parker won a Finals MVP over Duncan.  Chauncey Billups won it in 2004.  

 

Here's what's important, though: Magic won the award in 1980 and 1982.  He won it in 1987, also.  Worthy won it in 1988.  Kareem won six rings...and two Finals MVP awards.  Kind of sounds like Kobe Bryant, more than Michael...a guy who was clearly the #1 on his team, the sole #1, every championship ring he put on his finger.

 

So I'll ask again...what was your point?  KAJ had FOUR impressive NBA Finals games in 1985.  It landed him the Finals MVP.  Magic orchestrated it...and it was ALWAYS that way, since 1980.  Stick an uninjured Bird into the equation, and the series never makes it to Game 6.  Do you actually believe that Cooper's defense stopped Bird, like most of those Lakers homers back then?  Did Bird not prove he could TOAST Coop in the regular season road game against the Lakers that year, when he made Cooper look like a D-Leaguer?  Did he not toy with Cooper in the game at Boston, scoring for half the game, then playing facilitator and smiling as he dished the ball to DJ and Ainge everywhere on the floor?  You think the best player in the NBA, if healthy for that series, was going to lay down to the Lakers?

 

Maybe numbers do lie.  Kareem was Finals MVP because of his numbers, but Magic ran the show, and if it wasn't for him and Worthy, Kareem would have retired with three championships.  Real talk.  And truthfully, the star-studded Showtime Lakers are extremely lucky that Portland didn't draft Jordan, because a Jordan/Drexler/Kiki trio would have taken them to seven games in 1985 and won the Finals in 1987 and 1988.  It was unfortunate that MJ had to bust his ass, all by himself, for the first 6-7 years of his career...instead of walking into a team with Kareem, Jamaal Wilkes, and Norm Nixon (two HOF'ers, all three in the prime of their careers) in 1979.



#108 Real Deal

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 12:57 AM

The worst part is, I actually have to put down Kareem, Magic, and even the 1985 Lakers, just to defend Michael Jordan after someone basically says that anyone can do what Jordan did.

 

:smh:

 

Let me guess your top five players in NBA history...

 

1) Kareem

2) Magic

3) Kobe

4) Wilt

5) West

 

?



#109 Majesty

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 02:07 AM

Larry Bird himself said Michael Cooper was the toughest defender he ever faced real.

We can deal "what if's" all day if we wanted to do that which is why I don't deal in "what if's" in scenario's like that when dealing with Kareem vs MJ or such. 

You could easily say "It doesn't matter if worthy was injured in 91, Jordan was GOING to get that title" and in another breath someone can reply "No, this is what could have happened"  And then the argument is moot because it didn't happen and we'll never know for sure.


We can say that if Karl Malone didn't get injured in 2004 that the Lakers could have beaten the Pistons.   It's a lot of what if's due to injuries we could say.

We could say if Kobe had never hurt his ankle we'd have swept Indiana and that if Samaki Walker's three hadn't count we would have lost to the Kings 4-2.

The thing is nothing is ever for sure.   Boston made it to the finals hook or crook and they lost to the Lakers, we can argue that Bird's hand would have lead them to a one sided victory over the Lakers when Larry himself said Coop was the hardest guy that ever defended him.  Not Lakers homers.  Larry Bird himself.   So anything else we can assume would happen is an opinion and not the gospel truth.

So let's deal with what is instead of "what ifs"  Because what ifs become construed to the outcome we personally think as opposed to what could have actually happened.   Injuries happen in basketball all the time.


Do you take MJ's first title credit from him because the Lakers were missing Worthy and Byron Scott had a messed up shoulder and ankle till his body could take no more? 

Cause I can bring up stuff like that too.

I say with a healthy Worthy and Scott the Bulls never come back in the 4th quarter of game 3.     That the series gets tied 2-2 and you can even make an argument that in game 5 had the Lakers had any healthy wings that they'd have kept the lead they got in the 4th after they stormed back, or you could argue whether they'd have to storm back at all.


That game can be played multiple times by multiple people under multiple circumstances and usually tails into the outcome we personally feel will happen rather than what actually would have happened.  Because what actually would have happened is unknown.    We can only deal with what is.

Cause another argument can be made that if the Pistons weren't so darn injury plagued in 91 and had to struggle through most of the season through injuries and a terribly banged up Isaiah Thomas that the Bulls don't sweep them either.  But no one talks about that, they classify it as the Bulls "finally breaking through" rather than the Pistons "breaking down" or rather already being broken down by that time as they'd been pretty bad off for months and having an Isaiah Thomas that was having the worse statistical year of his career and only playing somewhere around 40 games.... anyone talk about that?  No.  So you wanna talk about Larry's hand? Let's talk about that and play those what if games but we can't "REALLY" do that because we don't know.  if they are as healthy as they were in 89 do the Bulls beat them?  Another debate entirely.  I'll tell you one thing.  It isn't a sweep and possibly goes 7 again.


But going back to what is, this is about Kareem's MVP I'm guessing?

The fact that Kareem got a Finals MVP at 38 doesn't diminish Jordan's greatness.  We don't have to play the "what if Larry Bird's hand was 100%"

What if Shaq wasn't hurt in 2003? What if Shaq was in in shape in 2004?  What if Malone wasn't injured?   What if Kobe was 100% in 2011?   What if Gasol's girlfriend never broke his heart?  Does Kobe have 8 rings now and surpass Jordan?    If the Lakers have a healthy Ariza and a healthy Bynum do the Celtics make that 4th quarter comeback in 2008??     What if's based on injuries can go all day and shift the argument either way we want it to go to, cause we'll never truly know the outcome.


So dealing with WHAT IS.  The fact is, yes Kareem has a Finals MVP at 38 years old. 

No that isn't what would make him better than Jordan if someone wanted to make that argument, and there'd be better ones to make anyway :)


Edited by Majesty, August 27, 2013 - 02:20 AM.

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#110 Real Deal

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 02:21 AM

You're focusing on a small piece of the post.  I eventually just gave Kareem credit for his four-game performance in the 1985 NBA Finals.  He did his part.  So what?  I'm still trying to figure out why Kareem's Finals MVP was mentioned in the first place, because for the rest of that particular postseason, he played like a Pau Gasol...and after that, he leaned on Magic Johnson and James Worthy for two of his rings (87 and 88) the same way Odom did Kobe and Gasol.

 

Again, the funny part was, the disagreement was about me bringing statistics to the table...yet, then he mentions an award that is presented by the media...to a player because of his 6-game Finals statistical performance.

 

This is the problem with our fanbase, though.  It always has been.  I still will never forget all of the people saying Magic was greater than Jordan (which is depressing to hear from a basketball fan) and even worse, that Farmar was better than Rondo (of course, because Rondo wears green).  But it's expected.



#111 Majesty

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 02:21 AM

You're focusing on a small piece of the post.  I eventually just gave Kareem credit for his four-game performance in the 1985 NBA Finals.  He did his part.  So what?  I'm still trying to figure out why Kareem's Finals MVP was mentioned in the first place, because for the rest of that particular postseason, he played like a Pau Gasol...and after that, he leaned on Magic Johnson and James Worthy for two of his rings (87 and 88) the same way Odom did Kobe and Gasol.

 

Again, the funny part was, the disagreement was about me bringing statistics to the table...yet, then he mentions an award that is presented by the media...to a player because of his 6-game Finals statistical performance.

 

This is the problem with our fanbase, though.  It always has been.  I still will never forget all of the people saying Magic was greater than Jordan (which is depressing to hear from a basketball fan) and even worse, that Farmar was better than Rondo (of course, because Rondo wears green).  But it's expected.



Ah got ya.

Magic even admits MJ is better than him.  I'll take him at his word on that fact.

But then again fans like to use "modest" to mask what someone may really think when it's really what they(the fan) think.

Just like the fans say Kobe wouldn't want to play with LeBron when they really want to say is "I don't want to see LeBron as a Laker so I'll throw Kobe's name out there and live vicariously through him so I don't look like a fool with no argument."

I think I'm just grumpy tonight after doing 86 comic book pictures and needing to convert them into the pages before tomorrow afternoon -_-


Edited by Majesty, August 27, 2013 - 02:37 AM.

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#112 Tensai

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 04:25 AM

right now with all things considered,

 

1. MJ

2. Kareem

3. Kobe

4. Magic

5. Wilt

6. Bird

7. Duncan

8. Hakeem

9. Shaq

10. Lebron

 

If Kobe gets one more ring he surpasses Kareem in my list, and with 2 it's MJ's turn.

 

If Lebron gets one more ring he will jump ahead of Shaq and maybe Hakeem too. With 2, he's 5th. And if he can manage 3, I'll have to put him in Top 3. (with either MJ-Kareem or MJ-Kobe). But I don't think he can manage 3 more. He won his fist title in 9th season. By 9th season Kobe went to finals 4 times and won 3. That is why it will be harder for him to equal Kobe and Magic. He can only manage so many years. Remember he already went to finals 3 years in a row. In order for him to win 3 before he is 32 he needs to win ECF 6 times in a row, then also beat the Finals opponent. Think about Pacers and Bulls again. No way unless somehow Durant ends up in Miami. If he actually accomplishes this scenario, though, he is ahead of Jordan. After 32, it will be very hard for him to dominate the league with Durant, Rose and other players in their primes. He will need a very very good side kick. (Kyrie prime?)

 

I wish we could have seen Kobe and Lebron go head to head in one finals run when they were still good. Lebron robbed us off that fun in '10.



#113 DanishLakerFan

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 05:40 AM

I prefer Tiers.

 

Tier 1. Wilt, Russell, Kareem or MJ. Anyone could be first depending on what you look at.

 

Tier 2. Kobe, Bird, Magic, Duncan. Multiple championships, stats, records, completing career with ONE team.



#114 Windu

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 06:15 AM

Duncan seems way too low. I would put him above Hakeem, Shaq, and arguably Russell.

 

lol


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#115 Windu

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 06:16 AM

Agreed. I'd say Timmy is better than Hakeem and maybe Shaq.

 

lol


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#116 gque24

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 06:41 AM

Im right there with you windu them 2 ^^^ are cr8z & I hated Shaq back in the day but still.


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#117 Windu

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 07:06 AM

Hakeem [expletive] all over Duncan

 

So does Shaq


Edited by Windu, August 27, 2013 - 07:06 AM.

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#118 LakeShow805

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 07:56 AM

Should be on there. LeBron is better than Duncan and Hakeem.

nooooo



#119 Harry Styles

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 10:25 AM

right now with all things considered,

 

1. MJ

2. Kareem

3. Kobe

4. Magic

5. Wilt

6. Bird

7. Duncan

8. Hakeem

9. Shaq

10. Lebron

 

If Kobe gets one more ring he surpasses Kareem in my list, and with 2 it's MJ's turn.

 

If Lebron gets one more ring he will jump ahead of Shaq and maybe Hakeem too. With 2, he's 5th. And if he can manage 3, I'll have to put him in Top 3. (with either MJ-Kareem or MJ-Kobe). But I don't think he can manage 3 more. He won his fist title in 9th season. By 9th season Kobe went to finals 4 times and won 3. That is why it will be harder for him to equal Kobe and Magic. He can only manage so many years. Remember he already went to finals 3 years in a row. In order for him to win 3 before he is 32 he needs to win ECF 6 times in a row, then also beat the Finals opponent. Think about Pacers and Bulls again. No way unless somehow Durant ends up in Miami. If he actually accomplishes this scenario, though, he is ahead of Jordan. After 32, it will be very hard for him to dominate the league with Durant, Rose and other players in their primes. He will need a very very good side kick. (Kyrie prime?)

 

I wish we could have seen Kobe and Lebron go head to head in one finals run when they were still good. Lebron robbed us off that fun in '10.

Please tell me how the hell Kobe is third all time already. And the fact that you do have Russell in that pretty much proves how young and foolish you are. Kobe is not better than Bird. 



#120 Windu

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Posted August 27, 2013 - 10:28 AM

Kobe is not better than Bird. 

 

wha???


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