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ESPN Numbers Never Lie: Michael Jordan Vs. Kobe - Would Six Rings Put Kobe On Jordan's Level?


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#61 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 23, 2013 - 11:58 AM

This is why Kareem is great to me

 

He put 37 or whatever against Wilt, and then 44 on Hakeem and Sampson.

 

 

If that's not telling of how much of the game KAJ was around then you can't see the BIG picture.

 

 

Wilt and Russell were the overall best bigs of that era where young kids and apologist want to say the Centers weren't as big or strong, but EVERY era has a guy stronger or bigger or more athletic than MOST of his competitors at that position.

 

 

I think you have to look at Wilt's stamina at a 7 footer, the ability to put up that many shots is HIGHLY impressive.

 

Imagine if Noah scored 35 points per game- that's Wilt in my opinion, probably sacrificing a bit of defensive intensity though

I saw guys hang with Shaq, just by using stamina and quickness, and I don't think none were on Wilt's level.

 

 

but then my one knock on MJ is I think the 90s had a lot of bad teams and lazy, drugged out players, but more than anything else, that's when the $$$$ was coming in and it was a new thing. i think you saw a generation of players nothing like What we have seen in the 80s or post the LeBron draft class.

 

 

I would go back to Kobe's class, but I think there was still a bit of that.



#62 LakeShow805

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Posted August 23, 2013 - 02:46 PM

This is why Kareem is great to me

 

He put 37 or whatever against Wilt, and then 44 on Hakeem and Sampson.

 

 

If that's not telling of how much of the game KAJ was around then you can't see the BIG picture.

 

 

Wilt and Russell were the overall best bigs of that era where young kids and apologist want to say the Centers weren't as big or strong, but EVERY era has a guy stronger or bigger or more athletic than MOST of his competitors at that position.

 

 

I think you have to look at Wilt's stamina at a 7 footer, the ability to put up that many shots is HIGHLY impressive.

 

Imagine if Noah scored 35 points per game- that's Wilt in my opinion, probably sacrificing a bit of defensive intensity though

I saw guys hang with Shaq, just by using stamina and quickness, and I don't think none were on Wilt's level.

 

 

but then my one knock on MJ is I think the 90s had a lot of bad teams and lazy, drugged out players, but more than anything else, that's when the $$$$ was coming in and it was a new thing. i think you saw a generation of players nothing like What we have seen in the 80s or post the LeBron draft class.

 

 

I would go back to Kobe's class, but I think there was still a bit of that.

lol what? Wilt was much more skilled than Noah is and will be.



#63 TKainZero

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Posted August 23, 2013 - 04:34 PM

Kareem more assists them Michael Jordan

I didn't see that one coming

#64 Real Deal

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 12:36 AM

but then my one knock on MJ is I think the 90s had a lot of bad teams and lazy, drugged out players, but more than anything else, that's when the $$$$ was coming in and it was a new thing. i think you saw a generation of players nothing like What we have seen in the 80s or post the LeBron draft class.

One, Jordan dominated from 1984 on...not so much the Bulls, but MJ was already the best player in the league after he came back from his injury in 1986.  His 37/5/5 on 48% FG, nearly 12 FTA/G (teams could not stop him)...he was already there, despite Chicago's record.  That year was comparable to Kobe's 2006 season...not having a great team, being outstanding and unstoppable, but not seen as a winner because of the W/L of the team.

 

Two, the pay raises didn't start until the 1996-97 season...and Jordan already had four championships under his belt (would have been six had he not retired), lead role for the greatest season of all time (72 wins), a number of MVP's and scoring titles, DPOY, and was considered top three of all time at that point.

 

Kareem more assists them Michael Jordan

I didn't see that one coming

It's understandable.  He played 20 seasons in the NBA, to Jordan's 13 1/2 (counting his sophomore season -- injured -- and his return from retirement in 1995 as the half, nearly 40 combined games).  Kareem averaged over five assists a night just once in his career (5.4), and had a career average of just 3.6 APG (well under Jordan's 5.3 APG career average), but nearly seven extra seasons of play will give you that advantage.

 

Give Jordan 20 seasons of play, and there's absolutely no doubt he has well over 40,000 career points, shattering both Kareem and Malone's totals.  KAJ had just four seasons of 30+ PPG.  Jordan had seven consecutive, and eight altogether (nearly nine) in 13 years of play.  Funny thing is, what stopped eight consecutive was his returning season...and the season before his 37 PPG (what started the streak) was his sophomore season that lasted 18 games.

 

Kareem is in GOAT discussions because of how long he played.  He was incredible, and would be in top 10 discussions if he lasted just 13 seasons...but he's no MJ.  There's no comparison in regards to dominance.  Kareem's sky hook was unstoppable...but Jordan, himself, was unstoppable.



#65 DanishLakerFan

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 01:51 AM

One, Jordan dominated from 1984 on...not so much the Bulls, but MJ was already the best player in the league after he came back from his injury in 1986.  His 37/5/5 on 48% FG, nearly 12 FTA/G (teams could not stop him)...he was already there, despite Chicago's record.  That year was comparable to Kobe's 2006 season...not having a great team, being outstanding and unstoppable, but not seen as a winner because of the W/L of the team.

 

Two, the pay raises didn't start until the 1996-97 season...and Jordan already had four championships under his belt (would have been six had he not retired), lead role for the greatest season of all time (72 wins), a number of MVP's and scoring titles, DPOY, and was considered top three of all time at that point.

 

It's understandable.  He played 20 seasons in the NBA, to Jordan's 13 1/2 (counting his sophomore season -- injured -- and his return from retirement in 1995 as the half, nearly 40 combined games).  Kareem averaged over five assists a night just once in his career (5.4), and had a career average of just 3.6 APG (well under Jordan's 5.3 APG career average), but nearly seven extra seasons of play will give you that advantage.

 

Give Jordan 20 seasons of play, and there's absolutely no doubt he has well over 40,000 career points, shattering both Kareem and Malone's totals.  KAJ had just four seasons of 30+ PPG.  Jordan had seven consecutive, and eight altogether (nearly nine) in 13 years of play.  Funny thing is, what stopped eight consecutive was his returning season...and the season before his 37 PPG (what started the streak) was his sophomore season that lasted 18 games.

 

Kareem is in GOAT discussions because of how long he played.  He was incredible, and would be in top 10 discussions if he lasted just 13 seasons...but he's no MJ.  There's no comparison in regards to dominance.  Kareem's sky hook was unstoppable...but Jordan, himself, was unstoppable.

 

There is a problem with that logic.

 

That who "IF Jordan had played 20 seasons"-argument isn't valid. He didn't. One of the reason's why Jordan was great was because of his ego and that ego made him think he could be a baseball player, which caused him to miss a few seasons. 

 

Second, Kareem had a lot of success as a college player as well and had both he and Jordan gone to the NBA right out of high-school and played until retirement, it's hard to see who would end up with the most points. 



#66 Real Deal

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 03:16 AM

There is a problem with that logic.

 

That who "IF Jordan had played 20 seasons"-argument isn't valid. He didn't. One of the reason's why Jordan was great was because of his ego and that ego made him think he could be a baseball player, which caused him to miss a few seasons. 

 

Second, Kareem had a lot of success as a college player as well and had both he and Jordan gone to the NBA right out of high-school and played until retirement, it's hard to see who would end up with the most points. 

Kevin Garnett has more career points than Allen Iverson.  Does that make Garnett a better scorer, or do we take into account the fact that Allen Iverson didn't last as long due to injuries and his style of play?

 

So when someone tells me that Kareem was a better scorer than Jordan, it's laughable.  He wasn't.  Jordan's two top scoring seasons were never matched or exceeded by KAJ, and that's the same KAJ that was playing in a smaller NBA in 1969 to just before the mid 70's.  People also never discuss the fact that you were given three FT to make your two, and two FT to make one, up until the 1981-82 season.  That was HUGE, because Kareem was a poor FT shooter early in his career.

 

As far as the career points go...in 13 seasons, Jordan became third on the all time scoring list, only 6,000 points behind Kareem (2.5 seasons worth for MJ).  If Kareem came right out of high school, it would not have mattered.  Add the 1993 and 1994 seasons, and suddenly, at age 34, Jordan would have been at Kareem's doorstep...and that's with the injury-ridden season of 1985-86.  Jordan's decision to retire far too early to play baseball, then again after he was screwed over by the Bulls organization (missing three more seasons due to that second retirement), shouldn't take away his abilities as a scorer.

 

Kareem was outstanding, but MJ was ridiculous.



#67 Majesty

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 03:32 AM

Never underestimate longevity.

Jordan could have played 20 seasons and been above Kareem and Karl Malone.

The same way if Earl Manigault had ever made it to the NBA he'd have been greater than Jordan. 

If we look at careers as they are and not on what if's it's a very close comparison between KAJ and MJ.


What it comes down to is if we go "if MJ played 20 years like Kareem he could have done this." true.  But the fact is he didn't unfortunately.  I'd have love if he did, but he didn't.  

It was because of Jordan's own feelings in his own life and his own reasons for wanting to retire that prevented those things from happening and that is something must be held into account.

If he played all the way up until he was 40 instead of retiring in between of course he'd pass Kareem.   But he felt he accomplished all he wanted to.

These kind of threads exist to say "what if Jordan had played 20 years would he have been ahead of Kareem etc etc?"

yeah he would have.  But he didn't.  Just like Earl Manigault never made it to the NBA because of drug problems


So when people say "If michael jordan never retired he could have done this."  I'll say "If Earl Maligault never had a drug problem he could have done this." 

So I try to stay away from what if's on THOSE scenarios and just deal with things as they are when comparing all-time.


When it comes down to it, Kareem in his prime from college onwards in to the NBA was as unstoppable as Jordan and his skyhook is something that has never been duplicated by anyone of any era and it is part of the reason his career went as long as it had.

You have many people trying to emulate the things that Jordan did, there's even a video of Kobe and Jordan doing nearly side by side things.  Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan this much is sure. 

But you've never seen a center able to duplicate nor score at will the way Kareem has nor have a move as unstoppable as the skyhook NOR have his kind of longevity. Who's the last center that lasted for 20 years at a high level in the NBA?  aside from Kareem? Can you name any?

There's a reason for that.  

Kareems way of play and his scoring dominance is what lead to his longevity to play 20 years in this league and it shouldn't be tossed aside by a "well if Michael Jordan had played 20 years."  he didn't.   That is an advantage Kareem has over him and Kareem earned that advantage and it should be taken into account.   

That's all I mean on that front when it comes down to it :)  Not what Michael "could have" done if such and such.  But what actually happened.

It's like saying "if Superman didn't have a concience he could kill EVERY other superhero EASILY"  but he does have a conscience, that's why he lost to Batman.

kareem earned his longevity as well as his advantages over Jordan.   Jordan "could have" passed him.  But he didn't.  Kareem earned his advantage by having 20 years of longevity at a position that you will scarcely find any other center lasting as long in nor remaining at such a high level during without breaks in between.  

His 20 year longevity is a distinct advantage in his greatness.  He did.  Not "could have" he did and that should count imo.


Edited by Majesty, August 24, 2013 - 03:39 AM.

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#68 Real Deal

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 04:01 AM

Nobody is discrediting him for playing 20 years.  I'm saying that Kareem's 38k points, compared to Jordan's 32k, doesn't make him a better scorer because Kareem's total was racked up over the course of 20 seasons.

 

Yeah, longevity is huge, because I always mention that with Kobe Bryant.

 

However, Jordan accomplished what Kareem did in seven less seasons, as far as championships and MVPs go.  He also had the better overall seasons, and won all six of his rings as the MAN, with no co-captain.  KAJ helped Magic significantly, but everyone (even causal fans) knew who sailed the ship for at least three of those five Laker rings in the 80s.

 

Again, Garnett over Iverson is a great example.  I know Elgin Baylor falls a little lower on the list as well.  Kareem had 20 years to rack up 38,000 points.  Karl Malone had 18 seasons to slide into second place on that list (19 seasons, but one was a lockout, the other being his injury-prone season in LA).

 

Jordan was never, ever second fiddle to anyone in Chicago, and for good reason.  He was the best player in the NBA for nearly every season he played over 20 games in while wearing a Bulls uniform, and while I'll take Bird over him in 1984-85 (MJ's rookie season), I COULD argue that he was already the best by the time that season ended.

 

Regardless of what he could've done in seven more seasons, Jordan already matched Kareem's hand...and at that point, individual career numbers (including assists, which I pointed at a bit ago) favor Kareem only because he played 20 years.  It didn't make him a better passer than Jordan, didn't make him a better scorer, and overall, it didn't make him a better player...it just sticks him into the GOAT discussions the same way Wilt's 50 PPG and ridiculous rebounding averages did (all due to his era and minutes played).



#69 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 08:06 AM

When u talk about greatness, Jordan gave more to the Bulls than Kareem the Lakers.

But I'll say this, forget the numbers and all that crap.
This is a highly entertains tv show.

Kobe gets us to 6 chips,and all the other drama and such, then you have to say, as a fan if the Lakers, Kobe GAVE me more than MJ gave Bulls fans'.


The Jordan mystique was great, and so is the polarizing Kobe Bryant. As of now
Bulls have had more parades than Kobe's Lakers.

#70 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 08:12 AM

I think like LeBron showed against Dallas, nothing is a given.

Other than Kobe fans and Skip Bayless, no one thought LeBron was capable of such chokery.

Maybe MJ wasn't ready to win until he won. All with Pip, Phil, and always had the Best shooter in the league and two of the best defenders at the PF all time.


All the all time greats are right there with each other. There were nights were Reggie could outplay MJ occasionally so dismissing a Jerry West or prime Kobe or whomever is unfair

#71 lakers1o1

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 09:02 AM

Many may disagree with me but I personally believe Kobe's era and generation was and is much more competitive and filled with much more talent than Jordan's.  Yeah obviously most people support their generation of players and tend to praise guys they grew up watching which is practically a given in some ways.  I always argue that through Jordan's career several expansion teams were established throughout the league and the way those teams filled their rosters was through an expansion draft from other teams within the league.  Kobe and Jordan are both the best players out of their respective eras but in my personal opinion Kobe is the better offensive player but Jordan is the better defender.  Regardless its a tight race and the debate will go on and on even if Kobe won 2 more rings and 2 more MVP awards there will always be different aspects that people debate.  One thing that can be said though is that Jordan revived the game of basketball and basically carried the torch after Bird and Magic.  Without Jordan, the game of basketball wouldn't have nearly been as much as an international sensation and for that reason no one will ever be able to achieve what Jordan did.  All I hope is that sooner or later we'll find a similar guard type specimen that's been influenced by Kobe and Jordan's game and can add to the debate of GOAT.


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#72 rnr

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 12:14 PM

It certainly put Kobe into hes own path..Nuff Said..



#73 reryo

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 01:09 PM

All I hope is that sooner or later we'll find a similar guard type specimen that's been influenced by Kobe and Jordan's game and can add to the debate of GOAT.

 

And as Jeanie said, I hope he'll be a Laker.



#74 Mike D'Antoni

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 01:11 PM

Call me crazy. I know it's a ready. But I see Paul George in that Kobe mold. Isn't scared of big moments. In 2 or 3 years will have a complete game. Can shoot, can post, can handle, pass, a scary good defender. Impossible for him to be a laker. But I see him as potentially the closest thing to another Kobe. Currently

#75 Mike D'Antoni

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 01:11 PM

A reach*

#76 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 02:58 PM

Call me crazy. I know it's a ready. But I see Paul George in that Kobe mold. Isn't scared of big moments. In 2 or 3 years will have a complete game. Can shoot, can post, can handle, pass, a scary good defender. Impossible for him to be a laker. But I see him as potentially the closest thing to another Kobe. Currently



Not quite.

#77 Mike D'Antoni

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 03:01 PM

Lol not quite that he can be almost as good or that he can't be a laker?

#78 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 08:48 PM

Call me crazy. I know it's a ready. But I see Paul George in that Kobe mold. Isn't scared of big moments. In 2 or 3 years will have a complete game. Can shoot, can post, can handle, pass, a scary good defender. Impossible for him to be a laker. But I see him as potentially the closest thing to another Kobe. Currently

 

Paul idolized Kobe as he grew up and even copied his work ethic, so I can definitely see that.



#79 Mike D'Antoni

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Posted August 24, 2013 - 09:41 PM

Paul George and Kevin love would be amazing.

#80 lakersince75

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Posted August 25, 2013 - 04:51 AM

Two players in two different eras. Kobe's handle and Jump shot was better than Mikes. Mike was more physically gifted and fundamentals (two years at UNC) were better than Kobes. Mike played when it was more physical. Kobe played against more talented and athletic players every night. Not freakin Craig Ehloe and Mark Price. Kareem is the greatest by the way!! :bleh:   As much as I hate to say this, LeBron may put all these arguments to rest. I can see all of Mike and Kobe's records and championships being broken by this man. He also took very bad teams close to the finals under Mike Brown. Jordan never did that. He also may go to the finals more than both. This dude is a combination of Karl Malone, Magic Johnson, Dominique Wilkins. And for you young heads, googling stats can't tell you what that means, you had to be there. It's like having Optimus Prime on an NBA court. A triple double whenever he needs to.  Kobe nor Mike is that. Kobe won without Shaq. Jordan never won without Pippin. As a matter of fact Pippin was just one BS call from taking Chicago to the Conference finals without Mike. So let's stop the comparing especially when there are prisoners locked up for life who are and were better than all these guys. The discussion is moot 






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