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ESPN Numbers Never Lie: Michael Jordan Vs. Kobe - Would Six Rings Put Kobe On Jordan's Level?


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#21 Majesty

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:03 AM

First thing that should be mentioned is this: the show is ridiculous. As you see, they used Jordan and Kobe's scoring average to settle the debate.

Allen Iverson: 26.7 PPG over the course of his career
Kobe Bryant: 25.5 PPG

Will they argue that Allen Iverson is the greater player? Nope. They'll say that 5 > 0 (rings).

Supposedly, they used the numbers most relevant to the discussion. Since this show is about as basic as it gets, they should have simply concluded that Kobe can EQUAL Jordan, since 6 = 6.

--------

Now, the truth is, Kobe will never reach Mike. There's a major difference in the defense played against them, but the popular idea will be that Jordan had it tougher (he didn't)...and when you look at personal achievements and FG%, Jordan trumps Kobe. Those will win over the masses, no matter the ring count (unless it's some ridiculous amount, but look at Bill Russell).

People see Shaq, and they don't realize that Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Kukoc, and the many shooters that Jordan had on his side combine to make up for a big man such as O'Neal (and I know Rodman and Grant didn't play together, I'm just saying...Pip/Grant, or Pip/Rodman, will work). Other things come into play as well...some favoring Mike, some Kobe, such as the retirement that prevented MJ from landing eight-consecutive titles (he would have done it, Houston would have lost to the Bulls both seasons).

Jordan and Kobe are the two greatest players to ever play the game, though, when it comes down to their overall production/game. Take away the rings, take away the MVPs, other media awards, etc...and right now, you have Jordan, Kobe, Bird, and LeBron...in that order. I could probably make an argument for LeBron over Bird, sadly.


Where do you put Kareem? 

Also yes, I think people have a habit of belittling Jordan's roster and beefing Kobe's.


Kobe had Shaq.

Jordan had the 1,2,3 defenders in the league on his team.

Rodman,
Scottie,
Himself.

Surrounded by shooters.  Jordan had an AWESOME supporting cast, especially in that second 3-peat when his defense wasn't as effective as it was prior to his retirement.   But having Rodman and Scottie solved any issues that may have caused.


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#22 Real Deal

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:09 AM

If we're talking skills + accomplishments, then it's...

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe

Obviously, big men are going to plummet on my list if we're leaving out accomplishments...not really fair to them, since few have range out to 23 feet, find it hard to dribble, etc. That's why these discussions are tough.

#23 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:17 AM

If we're talking skills + accomplishments, then it's...

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe

Obviously, big men are going to plummet on my list if we're leaving out accomplishments...not really fair to them, since few have range out to 23 feet, find it hard to dribble, etc. That's why these discussions are tough.

Accomplishments and skills, I'm sorry but Wilt and Bill have to be up there somewhere ahead of Kareem right? I mean at least Bill.

 

As far as Wilt, I just don't get how it's new popular to say he wasn't really great when  his individual dominance was un-matched and he sacrificed to win late in his career. It would be like  Iverson going to Denver and becoming a 156,13 guy to the tune of titles after all his great scoring.

 

 

 

Plus the guy was a great college athlete, played 48 minutes, and ran triathlons and marathons after his career. In comparison to Shaq, who well got Fat.

 

 

Wilt has got to be respected more as a Mount Rushmore guy



#24 Majesty

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:18 AM

If we're talking skills + accomplishments, then it's...

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe

Obviously, big men are going to plummet on my list if we're leaving out accomplishments...not really fair to them, since few have range out to 23 feet, find it hard to dribble, etc. That's why these discussions are tough.



it is.  In terms of that it's still very debatable between Jordan and Kareem.

Though I think it's unfair to compare a shooting guard to a center as they are different positions and are asked to do different things.

Blew my freaking mind that Kareem had more assists than Jordan though >_<  I just found that out yesterday lol

Actually Kareem has trumped Jordan in every statistical category except steals.  I think... not sure. 

On a show like Numbers Never Lie they'd probably make an argument Kareem vs Jordan which to me is more legitimate if people wanna play the stat game.  But of course they won't. 


Edited by Majesty, August 21, 2013 - 11:24 AM.

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores 


#25 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:22 AM

Kareem, college era...His overall dominance is almost laughable



#26 Majesty

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:24 AM

Kareem, college era...His overall dominance is almost laughable


They banned dunking in college basketball because of how dominant Kareem was :laughing:   THAT is saying something.


Edited by Majesty, August 21, 2013 - 11:25 AM.

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#27 Ham

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 11:59 AM

Accomplishments and skills, I'm sorry but Wilt and Bill have to be up there somewhere ahead of Kareem right? I mean at least Bill.

 

As far as Wilt, I just don't get how it's new popular to say he wasn't really great when  his individual dominance was un-matched and he sacrificed to win late in his career. It would be like  Iverson going to Denver and becoming a 156,13 guy to the tune of titles after all his great scoring.

 

 

 

Plus the guy was a great college athlete, played 48 minutes, and ran triathlons and marathons after his career. In comparison to Shaq, who well got Fat.

 

 

Wilt has got to be respected more as a Mount Rushmore guy

I thought Kareem schooled Wilt every time they played. 


Mike D'Antoni is GARBAGE.


#28 Real Deal

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 12:07 PM

Accomplishments and skills, I'm sorry but Wilt and Bill have to be up there somewhere ahead of Kareem right? I mean at least Bill.
 
As far as Wilt, I just don't get how it's new popular to say he wasn't really great when  his individual dominance was un-matched and he sacrificed to win late in his career. It would be like  Iverson going to Denver and becoming a 156,13 guy to the tune of titles after all his great scoring.

I'll just quote a post I made from earlier.

For the same reasons Oscar isn't so high, you'll find Wilt out of the top three. Chamberlain took 40 shots a night to average his 50 PPG, played 48.5 MPG, shot 50% from the floor that season, just eight teams in the NBA, didn't win over 46 games that year. Really? In Wilt's first 10 years in the league, he never averaged under 45 MPG. In his first six years, he never shot under 28 FGA/G...yet, never averaged 53% FG in those first six. When was Wilt's best season? Probably when he dropped 24/24/8 on 68% shooting, in Philly, at 30 years old.

I'd argue Magic at #4, Wilt #5. If Bird won as many rings as Magic, I'd be pressed to push him OVER Johnson in the countdown.

#29 MAMBA24ILL

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 12:28 PM

Like she said, he needs to let go. That's the issue with lots of fans.
I wasn't even aware of yet another show where apparently, the louder you talk, the more valid your point. Trash TV.

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#30 fozi

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 12:41 PM

I'll just quote a post I made from earlier.I'd argue Magic at #4, Wilt #5. If Bird won as many rings as Magic, I'd be pressed to push him OVER Johnson in the countdown.

 

How close you see LeBron passing Kobe on all time ?

 

 

Q for all.



#31 MAMBA24ILL

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 12:46 PM

LeBron has the build & the tools to really challenge for GOAT status. 


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#32 L.A.7

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 02:24 PM

Real Deal pretty much said everything. Kobe is my favorite player of all time but Jordan get the nod because of all his accomplishments. If you take away all those MVP's and stuff, Kobe is right up there with him. Jordan and Kobe are two of the most skilled players ever. Their skills, the way the control the game, relentless attacking and confidence seperates them from everyone else.

I believe that Kobe is even a better offensive player than Jordan. Jordan gets a nod on defense but Kobe is still right up there with him. If I were to make a list of the greatest players of all time not counting the media given MVP's and even take out championships, it would be:
Jordan
Kobe
Kareem/Wilt

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 02:50 PM


They banned dunking in college basketball because of how dominant Kareem was :laughing:   THAT is saying something.

I'm sure John Wooden loved that since he was so against dunking for the game despite Kareem dominating with it.

I believe that Kobe is even a better offensive player than Jordan.

He is. No question. Greatest, most skilled & complete offensive arsenal in the history of the game hands down.


yo.


#34 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 09:09 PM

Jordan's mitts. I was watching young MJ last game grabbing rebounds with one hand like Dr. J or Connie Hawkins.

 

 

Kobe with hands like that might figure out how to still be the best player in the game, like a 34,35,36 year old MJ. Then again, there was nothing like LeBron around



#35 Majesty

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Posted August 21, 2013 - 09:10 PM

That's a pretty scary freaking concept if we think about what Kobe would have done if he had hands the size of MJ...


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#36 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 22, 2013 - 05:24 AM

Um he was also over a decade younger...

I thought Kareem schooled Wilt every time they played. 


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#37 Majesty

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Posted August 22, 2013 - 06:04 AM

Um he was also over a decade younger...


does that make much of a difference with Kobe?


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#38 Ham

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Posted August 22, 2013 - 07:09 AM


Um he was also over a decade younger...

lol wilt put up crazy numbers. Kareem still schooled him. He was unguardable.

Edited by Ham, August 22, 2013 - 07:10 AM.

Mike D'Antoni is GARBAGE.


#39 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 22, 2013 - 07:22 AM


does that make much of a difference with Kobe?

Y3s, LeBron outperforms him all the time



#40 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 22, 2013 - 08:09 AM

What proof do you have of this? I can probably bet every dollar I have you have never seen a game with them playing against each other.  Not saying it didn't happen at some point but you can't state that as a fact. 

lol wilt put up crazy numbers. Kareem still schooled him. He was unguardable.


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