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Who's Better?

Kobe Lebron

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#81 Windu

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:20 AM

Kobe is going to 3-peat at the age of 35/36/37? 

Kobe is going to 3-peat in is 18th, 19th, and 20th seasons?

Kobe is going to 3-peat coming off a torn achilles?

Kobe is going to 3-peat under Mike D'Antoni?

 

Kobe Bryant is my second favorite player of all time but the odds are really against him...especially the Mike D'Antoni hindrance

 

Michael Jordan is the greatest player the game has ever seen. No, it's not Wilt Chamberlain, it's not Magic Johnson, it's not Bill Russell, it's not Hakeem Olajuwon, it's not Kareem Abdul Jabbar, it's not Kobe Bryant. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH FINISHING BEHIND MICHAEL JORDAN! For Kobe to even be in the discussion is a great thing. 


Edited by Windu, August 20, 2013 - 01:12 PM.

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#82 gque24

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:38 AM

Kobe was 17 yrs

Thats totally not what I was arguing.  Bottom line is he wouldnt have done what MJ did in the time MJ did.  MJ avg something like 33 ppg his 7 years in the NBA.  Kobe has only had 2 years of back2back 30ppg years and those were post Shaq dead in his prime 81 pt Kobe.  Not to mention thats just points, he still has yet to surpass MJ in rebounds and steals.

 

Its not much of a debate.  Kobe is great and MJ was greater.  Why do we have to dance around that fact?  What you really want to say is that you think Kobe is his equal if not better but you know for a fact you would sound like an idiot making that argument.


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#83 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:40 AM

The more I see your post I really start to question your age and thought process...you have the reasoning and logic of a 13 year old. 

If Kobe 3 peats starting this year and gets 3 Finals MVPs, he couldn't catch or past Jordan?

 

What if he beats LeBron, Rose and Melo in the Finals over the next 3 seasons, then what? He still lost 2 so he could NEVER catch Jordan?

 

 

I think MJ is idolized to the point where it's religion.

 

 

Wilt,Russell,Magic,Kobe,Julius,Shaq,Hakeem. All have something to say about that MJ is the best no argument stuff. and i like MJ, and he is perhaps is.

 

I DO think, the 90s was the LAZIESt most drugged out era of basketball, close with the 70s, but lazier.

 

See magic, larry and young Mj brought the money up to millions, so when you got the guys who were satisfied with allowing Jordan to reign supreme because everyone was eating, not the stars per se, but the guys on the bench and  those type of players, then the competition suffers. I think 1996 was the start of a new era. Even 94, I can really say. When Kidd and Hill, then KG m, then Kobe,Steve,Ray and all these guys who are still around, mixed in with the Iversons and Marbury who still played all out, but maybe  weren't the best off the court.

 

Then the 2003 class and beyond, the guys who idolized jordan, but really looked up to Kobe from an age standpoint, those guys came in with a SUPER work ethic, and all got better the summer they spent with Kobe observing him work

 

 

Kobe showed them he was human, and that made them realize they can be almost as great and they all became that way.

 

You have some knuckleheads, sure, but look at how a guy like farmar( a 10th man) is dedicated. Meeks,and Hill and Blake . these guys want to win and compete.

 

You look at the end of  benches all over the league and see Kobe is playing in perhaps the most competitive er of basketball, after all this wear and tear and still is a beast.

 


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#84 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:47 AM

So, my point is, there is apossible way that Kobe can past Jordan.

 

given how improbable ist is for him to or rather the lakers TEAM to 3 peat, it IS POSSIBLE, for sure.

 

 

So if that happens, then kobe could conceivably be a greater player than MJ.

 

 

And Wilt, Magic, Kareem and others can be said to be the greatest, I don't care what your opinion is. it's just reality.



#85 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:48 AM

The more I see your post I really start to question your age and thought process...you have the reasoning and logic of a 13 year old. 

okay. Keep hurling insults



#86 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:53 AM

We deal with reality in the real world.  Sure you can make the argument that anything is possible but you have nothing to build a real strong argument on how he could do it.  Hell I could say the Bobcats will possibly win the Finals this coming year while sweeping the Heat in the 1st rd but we know that would be foolish.

So, my point is, there is apossible way that Kobe can past Jordan.

 

given how improbable ist is for him to or rather the lakers TEAM to 3 peat, it IS POSSIBLE, for sure.

 

 

So if that happens, then kobe could conceivably be a greater player than MJ.

 

 

And Wilt, Magic, Kareem and others can be said to be the greatest, I don't care what your opinion is. it's just reality.


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#87 Majesty

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:03 PM

Kobe is going to 3-peat at the age of 35/36/37? 

Kobe is going to 3-peat in is 18th, 19th, and 20th seasons?

Kobe is going to 3-peat coming off a torn achilles?

Kobe is going to 3-peat under Mike D'Antoni?

 

Kobe Bryant is my second favorite player of all time but the odds are really against him...especially the Mike D'Antoni hindrance

 

Michael Jordan is the greatest player the game has ever seen. No, it's not Wilt Chamberlain, it's not Magic Johnson, it's not Bill Russell, it's not Hakeem Olajuwon, it's not Kobe Bryant. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH FINISHING BEHIND MICHAEL JORDAN! For Kobe to even be in the discussion is a great thing. 



i don't think he was saying that Kobe was gonna do that.  I think he was using it against what Jody said when she said Kobe would "never" catch Jordan.  He basically said if Kobe were to accomplish those things it would be dumb to say he didn't surpass Jordan.  Not that he was going to.

 

 

Michael Jordan is the greatest player the game has ever seen. No, it's not Wilt Chamberlain, it's not Magic Johnson, it's not Bill Russell, it's not Hakeem Olajuwon.


Debatable with the one guy not mentioned.

Little-known-fact-nearly-11000-of-Kareem

Pretty neck and neck between those two when it comes to GOAT imo.


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#88 Windu

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:11 PM

Let me edit...


Edited by Windu, August 20, 2013 - 01:11 PM.

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#89 Windu

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:16 PM


i don't think he was saying that Kobe was gonna do that.  I think he was using it against what Jody said when she said Kobe would "never" catch Jordan.  He basically said if Kobe were to accomplish those things it would be dumb to say he didn't surpass Jordan.  Not that he was going to.

 

I don't think Kobe will ever catch MJ either. It's just HIGHLY improbable. 

 

Even if Kobe gets number six, he won't be a superior player or even a equal player to what MJ was. 


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#90 Majesty

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:17 PM

Let me edit...


Surely but.. let me add

2mi2w02.jpg


Anyway that's a whole other debate entirely.   Blew my mind when I realized that Kareem had more assists than MJ too =p

 

 

I don't think Kobe will ever catch MJ either. It's just HIGHLY improbable. 

 

Even if Kobe gets number six, he won't be a superior player or even a equal player to what MJ was. 

 

He'd need to get to 7 in order for that to happen imo.


Edited by Majesty, August 20, 2013 - 01:17 PM.

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#91 Windu

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:20 PM

Our head coach is MDA...

 

Kobe is pretty much [expletive]ed.


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#92 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:25 PM

The main reason why MJ is held in such high regard outside of the off the court shoe deal and NBA marketing of a star, is that when he got his ish together as a player he was the perfect flawless dominant player.  He never lost in the Finals and was always unquestionably the best player on the floor.  Kobe has blemishes on his record as well as Lebron.  MJ did what they are trying to do but did it too perfection.  Kobe could reach 6 or 7 but it would be on his 8 and 9 try.  Lebron can never be over MJ due to that horrible Dallas finals and getting swept in 2007.   MJ would have never taken 2 shots in the 2nd half vs PHX in 07. 

 

6 in 13 years vs a possible 6 or 7 in 18/19 years...check the ratio and its debatable that he left rings when he checked out the first time. 


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#93 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 01:42 PM

But MJ apologists act like he wasn't in the playoffs and failed, because he didn't play the entire season. Why is it Kobe's fault as a basketball player or anyone's what the circumstances are that took MJ off the field.

 

 

I think it would have been tough for them to beat the Rockets without Rodman, and obviously, we have seen that going to 3 straight Finals is a burden and stress on the team, so it's not a lay-up that MJ would have had titles in that period.

 

 

What helps Mj is that his team was built in a way that no one could take his shine but hthey were HIGHLY effective.

 

Ron Harper was probably the best defensive point guard in the East, in that Bruce Bowen style, where he could guard the other guard, though MJ and Pippen made his job easy. Then having Horace or Dennis, who both lowered the value of the other team's frontcourt, by their play.

 

 

I wish Kobe would have had the equivalent  of a team like the Bulls, to show that he is just as great as MJ.

 

 

Give 81 point Kobe a team like Jordan had. LeBron was  trying to build that type of team in CLE with very good defensive bigs and shooters, but he didn't let anyone handle the ball enough. 

 

back to kobe

 

I think if 35 point Kobe(2006) had Fish instead of Smush and  Shawn marion instead of Radmonovic, and Big Z instead of Kwame, we would have won the title, without a doubt, especially if we had a Kerr type of player backing up Kobe. Kobe was so advanced in stamina at that point, that every play would have been a great shot for someone, except when Kobe wanted to take and make a difficult one for the fan's sake.

 

matter fact change big Z to Kaman around that time.

 

that in the triangle would have been a title team.



#94 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 02:48 PM

No one said his teams didnt.  What can be argued is that when MJ hit his peak he never lost again and possibly left 2 rings on the table during his first retirement.  I'm not really into what if's but for arguments sake what if MJ stayed? What if the Bulls won 8 in a row? An MJ Bulls team never saw 7 games in the Finals and they played some very good teams. 

 

Every time MJ went to the Finals the team played against all time greats in their prime and teams that actually had a shot at beating them.  The same can't be said for Kobe and Lebron.  Outside of the 2010 Celtics there wasnt a team the Lakers beat with Kobe on it that had a snowball's chance in hell of defeating them.  I won't knock Kobe or those teams for that but it has to be brought into account if you are going to compare MJ and Kobe.

 

But MJ apologists act like he wasn't in the playoffs and failed, because he didn't play the entire season. Why is it Kobe's fault as a basketball player or anyone's what the circumstances are that took MJ off the field.

 

 

I think it would have been tough for them to beat the Rockets without Rodman, and obviously, we have seen that going to 3 straight Finals is a burden and stress on the team, so it's not a lay-up that MJ would have had titles in that period.

 

 

What helps Mj is that his team was built in a way that no one could take his shine but hthey were HIGHLY effective.

 

Ron Harper was probably the best defensive point guard in the East, in that Bruce Bowen style, where he could guard the other guard, though MJ and Pippen made his job easy. Then having Horace or Dennis, who both lowered the value of the other team's frontcourt, by their play.

 

 

I wish Kobe would have had the equivalent  of a team like the Bulls, to show that he is just as great as MJ.

 

 

Give 81 point Kobe a team like Jordan had. LeBron was  trying to build that type of team in CLE with very good defensive bigs and shooters, but he didn't let anyone handle the ball enough. 

 

back to kobe

 

I think if 35 point Kobe(2006) had Fish instead of Smush and  Shawn marion instead of Radmonovic, and Big Z instead of Kwame, we would have won the title, without a doubt, especially if we had a Kerr type of player backing up Kobe. Kobe was so advanced in stamina at that point, that every play would have been a great shot for someone, except when Kobe wanted to take and make a difficult one for the fan's sake.

 

matter fact change big Z to Kaman around that time.

 

that in the triangle would have been a title team.


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#95 Majesty

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 02:56 PM

No one said his teams didnt.  What can be argued is that when MJ hit his peak he never lost again and possibly left 2 rings on the table during his first retirement.  I'm not really into what if's but for arguments sake what if MJ stayed? What if the Bulls won 8 in a row? An MJ Bulls team never saw 7 games in the Finals and they played some very good teams. 

 

Every time MJ went to the Finals the team played against all time greats in their prime and teams that actually had a shot at beating them.  The same can't be said for Kobe and Lebron.  Outside of the 2010 Celtics there wasnt a team the Lakers beat with Kobe on it that had a snowball's chance in hell of defeating them.  I won't knock Kobe or those teams for that but it has to be brought into account if you are going to compare MJ and Kobe.


What if Worthy wasn't injured in 91?

What if Kobe wasn't buried on the bench by an idiotic coach?

What if Karl Malone was never injured?  

What if Shaq was in shape?

What if the Lakers had a healthy Bynum and Ariza in 08 and never blew that 24 point lead against Boston? 


We could play what if's all day :)

And you seriously underrate the teams we beat, you're not gonna undermine an 19 year old Kobe taking out Reggie Miller with Shaq out of the game.  Or taking down a prime Tim Duncan Spurs team with both Shaq and Phil out of the game on separate games.   Not to mention that Pacers team, or even the Kings team or that Scottie Pippen lead trailblazers team.  All those teams were threats and had more than a chance in heck to beat us.

The problem is people got the nerve to say we didn't beat anybody, when really we just made them look like nobodies.

 


Edited by Majesty, August 20, 2013 - 02:56 PM.

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#96 Harry Styles

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 03:49 PM


What if Worthy wasn't injured in 91?

What if Kobe wasn't buried on the bench by an idiotic coach?

What if Karl Malone was never injured?  

What if Shaq was in shape?

What if the Lakers had a healthy Bynum and Ariza in 08 and never blew that 24 point lead against Boston? 


We could play what if's all day :)

And you seriously underrate the teams we beat, you're not gonna undermine an 19 year old Kobe taking out Reggie Miller with Shaq out of the game.  Or taking down a prime Tim Duncan Spurs team with both Shaq and Phil out of the game on separate games.   Not to mention that Pacers team, or even the Kings team or that Scottie Pippen lead trailblazers team.  All those teams were threats and had more than a chance in heck to beat us.

The problem is people got the nerve to say we didn't beat anybody, when really we just made them look like nobodies.

 

I don't feel that anyone is underrating them. But if you gave me the choice of playing the '91 Lakers, '92 Trailblazers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics, '97 and '98 Jazz or playing the '00 Pacers, '01 76ers, '02 Nets, '09 Magic and '10 Celtics, I would take the latter teams 10 times out of 10. 



#97 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 03:50 PM

Sure with all that considered Kobe still isn't touching MJ.  Period.  Let your insecurities go about it.  MJ being greater isn't a knock on Kobe at all.  Him actually patterning his game after MJ and actually being a more skilled player while being less physically gifted should be praised and normally it is.  What else do you want? On every top all time list he ranges from #2 to #10...thats great company.  Let it rest there.


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#98 zombeef

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 04:24 PM

 You guys aren't bored yet? Save some of the arguments for when this inevitably comes up again next month. 



#99 RobBlake

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 04:50 PM


Sure with all that considered Kobe still isn't touching MJ. Period. Let your insecurities go about it. MJ being greater isn't a knock on Kobe at all. Him actually patterning his game after MJ and actually being a more skilled player while being less physically gifted should be praised and normally it is. What else do you want? On every top all time list he ranges from #2 to #10...thats great company. Let it rest there.


The problem with the Jordan debate is. Even if there is a greater player than he was in the future it still won't be recognized. Jordan is just untouchable in people's mind. I don't think mj would stand out any more so in today's game than Kobe does

Edited by RobBlake, August 20, 2013 - 04:50 PM.

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#100 Harry Styles

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Posted August 20, 2013 - 04:50 PM

 You guys aren't bored yet? Save some of the arguments for when this inevitably comes up again next month. 

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