Jump to content




Photo

Who's Better?

Kobe Lebron

  • Please log in to reply
105 replies to this topic

#61 Jody Smokes

Jody Smokes

    All-Star

  • 6,515 posts
  • Joined: Jun 01, 2013
  • Fan Since:2003
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe

Posted August 19, 2013 - 07:17 AM

While I won't disagree that it would have hurt his numbers if MJ had a Shaq but Kobe wasn't nearly the player MJ was numbers wise or skill wise til like 2001 or so (5 years in).  That was 7 years in.  Kobe was 17 his very first NBA game.  MJ was 21.  If Kobe had been dropped off on a team at 17 like MJ was he wouldn't have been ready to drop nearly 28-30 out the gate like that. 

 

Having Shaq helped Kobe develop w/o the added BS of being on a bad team.  People like to use that to slight his accomplishments which is stupid to me.  Unless guys want to buy into the idea that Kobe would have put up an avg of 33ppg a game from age 17-21 or without Shaq then its probably not up for debate. 

If MJ has Shaq, he would be about the same as Kobe career-wise. Pippen is no Shaq


Edited by Jody Smokes, August 19, 2013 - 07:19 AM.

"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#62 Majesty

Majesty

    Luol Deng's cousin is awesome. Thanks for the pizza!!

  • 40,176 posts
  • Joined: Dec 11, 2011
  • Name:Jay
  • Fan Since:1987
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe present, Magic past

Posted August 19, 2013 - 12:45 PM

While I won't disagree that it would have hurt his numbers if MJ had a Shaq but Kobe wasn't nearly the player MJ was numbers wise or skill wise til like 2001 or so (5 years in).  That was 7 years in.  Kobe was 17 his very first NBA game.  MJ was 21.  If Kobe had been dropped off on a team at 17 like MJ was he wouldn't have been ready to drop nearly 28-30 out the gate like that. 

 

Having Shaq helped Kobe develop w/o the added BS of being on a bad team.  People like to use that to slight his accomplishments which is stupid to me.  Unless guys want to buy into the idea that Kobe would have put up an avg of 33ppg a game from age 17-21 or without Shaq then its probably not up for debate. 



He wouldn't have to put up 30 a game, he'd only have needed to score 15 at least in 43 games within the first two years of his career =p       He'd have passed Jordan a year and a half to two years ago if he was thrust into the starting position when he entered the league as scoring 15 in 43 games WOULD have happened in the LEAST. 


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#63 Jody Smokes

Jody Smokes

    All-Star

  • 6,515 posts
  • Joined: Jun 01, 2013
  • Fan Since:2003
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe

Posted August 19, 2013 - 06:37 PM

Thats totally not what I was arguing.  Bottom line is he wouldnt have done what MJ did in the time MJ did.  MJ avg something like 33 ppg his 7 years in the NBA.  Kobe has only had 2 years of back2back 30ppg years and those were post Shaq dead in his prime 81 pt Kobe.  Not to mention thats just points, he still has yet to surpass MJ in rebounds and steals.

 

Its not much of a debate.  Kobe is great and MJ was greater.  Why do we have to dance around that fact?  What you really want to say is that you think Kobe is his equal if not better but you know for a fact you would sound like an idiot making that argument.



He wouldn't have to put up 30 a game, he'd only have needed to score 15 at least in 43 games within the first two years of his career =p       He'd have passed Jordan a year and a half to two years ago if he was thrust into the starting position when he entered the league as scoring 15 in 43 games WOULD have happened in the LEAST. 


"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#64 Majesty

Majesty

    Luol Deng's cousin is awesome. Thanks for the pizza!!

  • 40,176 posts
  • Joined: Dec 11, 2011
  • Name:Jay
  • Fan Since:1987
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe present, Magic past

Posted August 19, 2013 - 07:08 PM

Thats totally not what I was arguing.  Bottom line is he wouldnt have done what MJ did in the time MJ did.  MJ avg something like 33 ppg his 7 years in the NBA.  Kobe has only had 2 years of back2back 30ppg years and those were post Shaq dead in his prime 81 pt Kobe.  Not to mention thats just points, he still has yet to surpass MJ in rebounds and steals.

 

Its not much of a debate.  Kobe is great and MJ was greater.  Why do we have to dance around that fact?  What you really want to say is that you think Kobe is his equal if not better but you know for a fact you would sound like an idiot making that argument.


With the kind of defense allowed back then do you seriously think Kobe wouldn't have?

Can you IMAGINE the numbers Kobe would put up if zone defense wasn't allowed and he had to be single covered a majority of the time? 

To try to say "Kobe wouldn't have done what Jordan did in Jordan's era" um.. yes he would have.  Scoring wise probably more.   Kobe was and is a better scorer than Jordan.   Put Kobe in Jordan's era when zone defense isn't allowed and Kobe scores 40 a night. 

If Kobe remains healthy he's gonna pass Jordan on every statistical category except steals.   And if he wins a 6th ring steals will be the only stat Jordan will have on him.   

It's not terrible to admit that Jordan was a better defender, just as it isn't terrible to admit that Kobe is the better scorer.   If Kobe was in Jordan's era when zone defense wasn't allowed Kobe would put up 40 a night, in his prime Kobe would have broke Wilt's 100 if he was playing in Jordan's era.   That's not a question, it's pretty obvious when you consider how easily Kobe scored on the zone and how nothing stopped him even in that defense designed to stop star players.

If Kobe was in Jordan's era where he had to deal with single coverage every night...yeah it wouldn't be pretty for the other team.

Jordan's the better defender, Kobe's the better scorer.


Edited by Majesty, August 19, 2013 - 07:14 PM.

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#65 RobBlake

RobBlake

    Off The Bench

  • 2,726 posts
  • Joined: May 22, 2012
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe, Shaq, Fisher, Magic

Posted August 19, 2013 - 07:43 PM


With the kind of defense allowed back then do you seriously think Kobe wouldn't have?

Can you IMAGINE the numbers Kobe would put up if zone defense wasn't allowed and he had to be single covered a majority of the time? 

To try to say "Kobe wouldn't have done what Jordan did in Jordan's era" um.. yes he would have.  Scoring wise probably more.   Kobe was and is a better scorer than Jordan.   Put Kobe in Jordan's era when zone defense isn't allowed and Kobe scores 40 a night. 

If Kobe remains healthy he's gonna pass Jordan on every statistical category except steals.   And if he wins a 6th ring steals will be the only stat Jordan will have on him.   

It's not terrible to admit that Jordan was a better defender, just as it isn't terrible to admit that Kobe is the better scorer.   If Kobe was in Jordan's era when zone defense wasn't allowed Kobe would put up 40 a night, in his prime Kobe would have broke Wilt's 100 if he was playing in Jordan's era.   That's not a question, it's pretty obvious when you consider how easily Kobe scored on the zone and how nothing stopped him even in that defense designed to stop star players.

If Kobe was in Jordan's era where he had to deal with single coverage every night...yeah it wouldn't be pretty for the other team.

Jordan's the better defender, Kobe's the better scorer.

agreed. I wish we could combine Michael and Kobe... my goodness


ap1.png


#66 Ham

Ham

    Rap Enthusiast

  • 6,554 posts
  • Joined: Jul 10, 2012
  • Fan Since:Showtime
  • Fav. Laker:Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant

Posted August 19, 2013 - 08:08 PM

While I won't disagree that it would have hurt his numbers if MJ had a Shaq but Kobe wasn't nearly the player MJ was numbers wise or skill wise til like 2001 or so (5 years in).  That was 7 years in.  Kobe was 17 his very first NBA game.  MJ was 21.  If Kobe had been dropped off on a team at 17 like MJ was he wouldn't have been ready to drop nearly 28-30 out the gate like that. 

 

Having Shaq helped Kobe develop w/o the added BS of being on a bad team.  People like to use that to slight his accomplishments which is stupid to me.  Unless guys want to buy into the idea that Kobe would have put up an avg of 33ppg a game from age 17-21 or without Shaq then its probably not up for debate. 

lol i think he could score 20-25 or close to it at 17 without shaq. came in extremely skilled. 33 is unrealistic.


Edited by Ham, August 19, 2013 - 08:08 PM.

Mike D'Antoni is GARBAGE.


#67 Harry Styles

Harry Styles

    King of Hearts

  • 1,461 posts
  • Joined: Jul 31, 2013
  • Name:Dilan
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe Bean Bryant

Posted August 19, 2013 - 08:17 PM

You can argue that Kobe was the better shooter between the two but Jordan was a better scorer. 



#68 Jody Smokes

Jody Smokes

    All-Star

  • 6,515 posts
  • Joined: Jun 01, 2013
  • Fan Since:2003
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe

Posted August 19, 2013 - 08:28 PM

Kobe at 17 was not going to avg anything close to 30. While he was a great talent then he was not physically ready to go toe to toe with guys at 17 for 82 games to put up those type of numbers.  If he was he would have played.  It's that simple.  The coaches aren't that stupid.  He sat on the bench b/c he wasn't ready and at the time Eddie Jones was the better player.  Kobe wasn't great until 3-4 years in and that makes perfect sense.  He was 21 and matured into his body at that point.


"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#69 Jody Smokes

Jody Smokes

    All-Star

  • 6,515 posts
  • Joined: Jun 01, 2013
  • Fan Since:2003
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe

Posted August 19, 2013 - 08:31 PM

I think Kobe had more range no doubt but MJ was just a better player mentally.  The main difference between MJ and Kobe and even Kobe and Lebron on some levels is that Kobe knows the right play but trust himself more which leads to some magical crazy shots and some headscratching wtf plays but MJ makes the right play. 

 

You can argue that Kobe was the better shooter between the two but Jordan was a better scorer. 


"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#70 BlueJab23

BlueJab23

    Rookie

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: Jul 10, 2012
  • Fan Since:Not a Fan
  • Fav. Laker:Not a Fan

Posted August 19, 2013 - 09:02 PM



If Kobe remains healthy he's gonna pass Jordan on every statistical category except steals.   And if he wins a 6th ring steals will be the only stat Jordan will have on him.   

 

Did Jordan lose his FMVP awards? Last time I checked MJ was the best player in every finals he played. The 6th rings argument is seriously overrated. Why don't we look at the FMVP instead of just rings to see how many times Kobe has led his team to a championship being the man compare to Jordan.



#71 BasketballIQ

BasketballIQ

    Superstar

  • 7,404 posts
  • Joined: Dec 29, 2012
  • Name:2 Jordans and 2 Steves
  • Fav. Laker:24

Posted August 19, 2013 - 09:03 PM

Kobe in my opinion PROVED to be as a pure scorer on par or better.

 

 

When he was in a circumstance to DO HIM, with no repercussions...he scored 40 and 50 like NOTHING...

Jordan got calls that NO player has gotten either and not even hatin, but some players get the benefit of the doubt more, and MJ got those calls.

 

 

 

He was more athletic and bigger hands so as far as driving, MJ was better. He  was a better rebounder and defender athletically.

 

 

Kobe in NY, against Dallas, against Blazers, against Toronto. Some of the clutch performances, Kobe is on par as a scorer.

 

 

If you prefer MJ's 10/20 to Kobe's 9/20, then okay, but as scorer's they are equals,IF anyone has the edge I would say Kobe.

 

 

Kobe broke Wilt records in HIGH SCHOOL and THE NBA. The guy can score like a MUG



#72 RobBlake

RobBlake

    Off The Bench

  • 2,726 posts
  • Joined: May 22, 2012
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe, Shaq, Fisher, Magic

Posted August 19, 2013 - 09:09 PM

its hard to play what ifs. We don't know what kobe could've done at age 17. Him filling in his body is irrelevant because KD still looks like an amazon woman out there yet is one of the best scorers in today's game.  He's prob weaker than when kobe was 17. MJ played in a different era of bball. 


ap1.png


#73 Harry Styles

Harry Styles

    King of Hearts

  • 1,461 posts
  • Joined: Jul 31, 2013
  • Name:Dilan
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe Bean Bryant

Posted August 19, 2013 - 09:56 PM

Did Jordan lose his FMVP awards? Last time I checked MJ was the best player in every finals he played. The 6th rings argument is seriously overrated. Why don't we look at the FMVP instead of just rings to see how many times Kobe has led his team to a championship being the man compare to Jordan.

That's the only thing that matters at this point: how many times did you lead your team to a championship as THE guy. 



#74 Harry Styles

Harry Styles

    King of Hearts

  • 1,461 posts
  • Joined: Jul 31, 2013
  • Name:Dilan
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe Bean Bryant

Posted August 19, 2013 - 09:58 PM

its hard to play what ifs. We don't know what kobe could've done at age 17. Him filling in his body is irrelevant because KD still looks like an amazon woman out there yet is one of the best scorers in today's game.  He's prob weaker than when kobe was 17. MJ played in a different era of bball. 

But you also have to take into account KD's length and shooting touch. Kevin Durant gets most of his points from outside the paint, where it doesn't require him to be so big. 


Edited by Harry Styles, August 20, 2013 - 10:29 AM.


#75 Harry Styles

Harry Styles

    King of Hearts

  • 1,461 posts
  • Joined: Jul 31, 2013
  • Name:Dilan
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe Bean Bryant

Posted August 19, 2013 - 10:00 PM

I think Kobe had more range no doubt but MJ was just a better player mentally.  The main difference between MJ and Kobe and even Kobe and Lebron on some levels is that Kobe knows the right play but trust himself more which leads to some magical crazy shots and some headscratching wtf plays but MJ makes the right play. 

That's what I meant. Kobe is better at that 20-25 ft range than Mike was but MJ was definitely a smarter player. 



#76 Ham

Ham

    Rap Enthusiast

  • 6,554 posts
  • Joined: Jul 10, 2012
  • Fan Since:Showtime
  • Fav. Laker:Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant

Posted August 19, 2013 - 10:19 PM


Did Jordan lose his FMVP awards? Last time I checked MJ was the best player in every finals he played. The 6th rings argument is seriously overrated. Why don't we look at the FMVP instead of just rings to see how many times Kobe has led his team to a championship being the man compare to Jordan.


Jordan wouldn't win FMVP with Shaq averaging 40/15 against puny centers of his era

Mike D'Antoni is GARBAGE.


#77 RobBlake

RobBlake

    Off The Bench

  • 2,726 posts
  • Joined: May 22, 2012
  • Fan Since:Birth
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe, Shaq, Fisher, Magic

Posted August 19, 2013 - 10:29 PM

But you also have to take into account KD's length and shooting touch. Kevin Durant get's most of his points from outside the paint, where it doesn't require him to be so big. 

this is true.  At the same time... Kobe wasn't a scrub even at age 17


ap1.png


#78 Jody Smokes

Jody Smokes

    All-Star

  • 6,515 posts
  • Joined: Jun 01, 2013
  • Fan Since:2003
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe

Posted August 20, 2013 - 04:31 AM

Bottom line to end all MJ debates.  Nothing Kobe could do at this point will ever put him equal to MJ accomplishments or rank wise.  You can't use the Shaq argument when we have 10 plus years of post Shaq Kobe to compare to MJ and he still doesnt equal. 

 

There is nothing wrong with that though.  Guys like Majesty and BBIQ can't grasp the fact that Kobe can be great but lesser to another player.  There is no debate when one guy scored 32k in 13.25 seasons when another is still trying to hit that mark in his 18th year.  Not to mention the titles. 


"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#79 Majesty

Majesty

    Luol Deng's cousin is awesome. Thanks for the pizza!!

  • 40,176 posts
  • Joined: Dec 11, 2011
  • Name:Jay
  • Fan Since:1987
  • Fav. Laker:Kobe present, Magic past

Posted August 20, 2013 - 06:12 AM

Bottom line to end all MJ debates.  Nothing Kobe could do at this point will ever put him equal to MJ accomplishments or rank wise.  You can't use the Shaq argument when we have 10 plus years of post Shaq Kobe to compare to MJ and he still doesnt equal. 

 

There is nothing wrong with that though.  Guys like Majesty and BBIQ can't grasp the fact that Kobe can be great but lesser to another player.  There is no debate when one guy scored 32k in 13.25 seasons when another is still trying to hit that mark in his 18th year.  Not to mention the titles. 



Kobe sacrificed points for the benefit of Shaq.

That is why Kobe passed Jordan in assists and not yet in points, also being buried on the bench for 2 years.

You try to make the same argument over but you'll need to face stats sometime.

If Jordan had Shaq he'd have had less points and more assists.

Thus that is what Kobe has.

He is ahead of Jordan everywhere but rebounds, steals and scoring and he is about to surpass him in 2 of the 3.


It's a very valid argument to say he sacrificed a lot of his points for the benefit of the team and for Shaq because he instead mastered being a facilitator in the triangle.   Kobe never has gotten the opportunity to be a true off ball "2" in the triangle.  This is a fact.

He hasn't had a capable enough point guard to allow him to do that as well.   This is another fact.

There is a reason Kobe surpassed Jordan in assists before points, because quite frankly Kobe traded in assists for points for the good of the team.  That is not debatable.   It's a proven truth.

Kobe is at his about 15th year as a starter option and his 12th as a main offensive option.  Jordan had a 15 year career as the main offensive option and if Kobe had scored 15 points 43 times in his first two years in the league(which he would have in the LEAST as a starter) he'd have passed Jordan in scoring before the 15 year mark.   Try again.


Edited by Majesty, August 20, 2013 - 06:15 AM.

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#80 BasketballIQ

BasketballIQ

    Superstar

  • 7,404 posts
  • Joined: Dec 29, 2012
  • Name:2 Jordans and 2 Steves
  • Fav. Laker:24

Posted August 20, 2013 - 09:03 AM

If Kobe 3 peats starting this year and gets 3 Finals MVPs, he couldn't catch or past Jordan?

 

What if he beats LeBron, Rose and Melo in the Finals over the next 3 seasons, then what? He still lost 2 so he could NEVER catch Jordan?

 

 

I think MJ is idolized to the point where it's religion.

 

 

Wilt,Russell,Magic,Kobe,Julius,Shaq,Hakeem. All have something to say about that MJ is the best no argument stuff. and i like MJ, and he is perhaps is.

 

I DO think, the 90s was the LAZIESt most drugged out era of basketball, close with the 70s, but lazier.

 

See magic, larry and young Mj brought the money up to millions, so when you got the guys who were satisfied with allowing Jordan to reign supreme because everyone was eating, not the stars per se, but the guys on the bench and  those type of players, then the competition suffers. I think 1996 was the start of a new era. Even 94, I can really say. When Kidd and Hill, then KG m, then Kobe,Steve,Ray and all these guys who are still around, mixed in with the Iversons and Marbury who still played all out, but maybe  weren't the best off the court.

 

Then the 2003 class and beyond, the guys who idolized jordan, but really looked up to Kobe from an age standpoint, those guys came in with a SUPER work ethic, and all got better the summer they spent with Kobe observing him work

 

 

Kobe showed them he was human, and that made them realize they can be almost as great and they all became that way.

 

You have some knuckleheads, sure, but look at how a guy like farmar( a 10th man) is dedicated. Meeks,and Hill and Blake . these guys want to win and compete.

 

You look at the end of  benches all over the league and see Kobe is playing in perhaps the most competitive er of basketball, after all this wear and tear and still is a beast.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Kobe, Lebron

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users