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Jordan Hill Vows Outside Shooting Won’t Compromise Rest Of His Game (Pg. 3)


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#21 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 06:47 PM

Why not adapt the system towards the players' strengths instead of adapting the players to the system? 



#22 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 06:53 PM

The same areas MOST great PFs operate from

 

Mid-range from Malone to Barkley to the list goes on. you need that mid-range to set up the drive, even most pFs post game, are based a lot on a 8-10 foot fallaway

this

I mean seriously...

The Lakers are gonna run HORNS!!!

Hill needs to work on his mid range jumper.

He's not gonna be camping the 3 point line looking for threes all night he'll be pick and popping off screens for midrange jump shots a majority of the time.(which is why he is ALSO working on pick and roll footwork as stated in the article)

Very similar to the kinds of things he tried to work on last year when D'antoni wasn't even our coach.


Take off the hater glasses and realize Hill is working on something that will actually HELP him become a more versatile player.

He did it when Mike Brown was coach too, this isn't new, this isn't "because of D'antoni"

Jordan Hill had been trying to work on his mid range jump shot and pick and roll skills ever since the beginning of last year in the pre-season but he got hurt so he didn't have a chance to truly work on them, he had to play it by ear most of the way after that  as far as his mid range game went.


So obviously he'd work on that this off-season.   It's very important, it was important in the Princeton and it's important right now.

It's gonna help him be a starter in this league as well as on this team.

I mean something positive like him working on his mid range jumper is turned INSTANTLY into a negative because of who our coach is.

You're basically saying "I don't want Jordan Hill to expand his game cause I hate our coach"

brilliant...

If Phil was here and Jordan Hill said that Phil asked him to work on his jump shot during the off-season ya'll would be flocking saying "Yeah his jump shot is his weakness, if he can hit the midrange with consistency then he'll be even better!! It will mean that he'll be more than just a "hustle player" something like a Haslem role for us which would be great!!  It also ensures him more minutes cause it takes his game out of that one dimension!!! Zen Master at work!! Making Hill get better. We love you Phil! *tear*"

But D'antoni asks it and suddenly its "NO!!!! NO!! DON'T WORK ON HIS JUMPER!! YOU WILL RUIN HIM!! THIS IS THE END OF JORDAN HILL'S CAREER!! SCREW YOU D'ANTONI!!"

give me a freaking break.


Keep expanding your game Hill, you needed a consistent mid-range shot, I'm glad you got a healthy summer to work on it.


 

Why not adapt the system towards the players' strengths instead of adapting the players to the system? 


Right because Phil didn't force Kobe to play in a system that he hated, making him master it and expand his game so that he could help get everyone involved in it....  he just let Kobe do what he wanted and created an offense around everything Kobe wanted to do instead...



D'antoni asking Jordan Hill to develop a mid range jump shot ain't the end of the world.    And it's something Jordan Hill was doing anyway when Mike Brown was here.   So what's the problem?  Do you want him to stay one dimensional and lose minutes when his "hustle" is off one night? 

When the defense adjusts to him hustling then what?   if he can't shoot the defense will just clog the paint on Pau cause they aren't worried about Hill's jumper from mid just like they weren't afraid of Metta from three so they overplayed defensively not letting the paint get involved.

Hill HAS to work on his midrange jump shot to make defenses pay for that.  It's a necessity.  if he doesn't then he's gonna lose minutes to Kaman who can actually hit that shot.

We don't want that to happen, unless you want a starting lineup of Gasol and Kaman you'd better hope Jordan Hill expands his game to at least having a consistent mid range jump shot.

Defenses adjust and he won't be able to cut to the rim all night.   So I'd rather he be dependable if they overload on Gasol and he knock down a mid range jumpshot to make defenses pay for leaving him open and giving Pau room to work as opposed to not being able to do anything in the paint when the defense switches cause Hill has no jump shot. 

To me I'd rather have Hill coming into this season having worked on his mid range jumper as well as his pick and roll game instead of being just a "hustle" guy.

But to each their own I guess.  D'antoni is the antichrist incarnate right?   If he asks a player to expand his game to a simple freaking midrange jump shot all heck breaks loose.

 

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Edited by Majesty, August 12, 2013 - 07:07 PM.

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#23 bfc1125roy

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 07:24 PM

[expletive] MDA Hill should be playing inside where he's effective. 



#24 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 07:28 PM

[expletive] MDA Hill should be playing inside where he's effective. 


When the inside is overcrowded if he doesn't have a mid range jumper he's gonna lose minutes to Kaman.

Do you WANT to see that happen?  

All they have to do to defend Hill when the defense adjusts to his cuts is to play off him and leave him open at mid range so he doesn't come back door or cutting through the lane, and then what happens?     He gets pulled and Kaman goes in. 

If he works on his mid range game AND his pick and roll game that won't happen and defenses will have to do something different.   I like the sound of that.

We're also gonna be running a lot of HORNS next year, where a mid range shot is a necessity.

But yes... [expletive] MDA for asking Hill to expand his mid range game and become more versed in pick and roll so that he isn't a one dimensional "Hustle" guy and can help us in more than one way when the defense overloads the paint...   Which Jordan Hill has been working on since the beginning of last year but was never healthy enough to truly work on it.


Edited by Majesty, August 12, 2013 - 07:31 PM.

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#25 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 07:54 PM

@Majesty: Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Hill to improve his game. In fact, often times I could see him as a stretch four not exactly shooting threes but at least hitting the mid-range jumpers. 

 

I just hope D'antoni isn't solely focused on Hill hitting the jumpers. I mean, if that's Hill's only purpose and he doesn't perform well, he probably won't be a Laker soon and that would militate against the Lakers. It reminds me of relegating Pau to the three-point line when he was much better at the post. Not saying he's the ultimate center at the post, but he definitely had a more variety of post-moves than Dwight.

 

I'd rather Hill focus on defense and rebounds first. He mentioned that he can still grab an offensive rebound and putback, so I'll take his word for it. To sum it up, hopefully the jumpers are a bonus to his game rather than his sole purpose.


Edited by Clutch Factor, August 12, 2013 - 07:54 PM.


#26 jax24

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:18 PM

Glad to hear people dont want Jordan to improve his game. Why would he want to do that? LOL!!! I dont give a damn who our coach is, cant see any harm him working on his weaknesses. We all know MDA loves stretch 4s, but so do most other NBA teams.

This is his contract year, so he obviously wants to showcase his versatility. Im sure him being a better shooter would improve his starting chances, not just here but anywhere.

I see no problem in him improving his game. Im sure he understands that he is a great impact, hustle role player off the bench. However, having more bows to your string can increase and prolong your longevity in this league.

At the end of the day he may never be nothing more than a bench role player, but you cant fault him looking to diversify his game. I understand some role players should stick to their strengths and what they're best at. However, you should always want your players constantly wanting to improve, be it your superstar or your 15th man on your roster.

#27 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:22 PM

@Majesty: Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Hill to improve his game. In fact, often times I could see him as a stretch four not exactly shooting threes but at least hitting the mid-range jumpers. 

 

I just hope D'antoni isn't solely focused on Hill hitting the jumpers. I mean, if that's Hill's only purpose and he doesn't perform well, he probably won't be a Laker soon and that would militate against the Lakers. It reminds me of relegating Pau to the three-point line when he was much better at the post. Not saying he's the ultimate center at the post, but he definitely had a more variety of post-moves than Dwight.

 

I'd rather Hill focus on defense and rebounds first. He mentioned that he can still grab an offensive rebound and putback, so I'll take his word for it. To sum it up, hopefully the jumpers are a bonus to his game rather than his sole purpose.



I think Hill has the option of hitting jumper when it's there.

I think he's also versing in pick and roll so he can be the finisher at the rim.

Cause we're gonna run horns which require the 4 and the 5 to be able to hit from there but also be able to know when to hand off, go which way etc.

If Hill gets this down he would for suredly get the starting minutes.

I don't mind Hill having a mid range game, that means if someone switches off to Gasol to double him in the post Gasol can pass it out to Hill for a mid range jumper or he could give it to him on the cut.

It makes our attack more versatile and I like it a lot more.


it's basically a way for us to ensure that what happened to us against San Antonio never happens again.  Means we can attack truly from every distance.

If they double Gasol in the post then the ball goes to Hill for a jump shot.

If Hill starts hitting it consistently then the defense has to adjust.

Then when the defense adjusts when the ball goes out to Hill, the ball swings along the perimeter for another shot.

And out of horns if the defense is too focused on leaving Gasol alone, a simple hand off to the point guard beats them to the basket.

It's basically increasing our options.  Hill isn't gonna be hovering the 3 point line like people are afraid of, but he will be attacking from mid range when the defense leaves him open, or as the roll man on the pick and roll, and I don't mind either.  

It means that D'antoni won't have to play Kaman extended minutes cause Hill doesn't have a jumper.

if he develops it, then it will work fine :)

As far as defense and reboundings, Rambis will have the entire team focusing on defense, and Hill already is the best offensive rebounder in the game.   I think it's about time he starts working on his offense a little.  Mid range and pick and roll verse is good.


Edited by Majesty, August 12, 2013 - 08:23 PM.

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#28 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:27 PM

Agreed. Switching from hitting the mid-range shots to focusing on offensive putbacks/rebounding and back and forth will make Hill unpredictable. But again, I'm going to emphasize that I hope D'antoni doesn't only want Hill to become a stretch four. If it was that easy to master jumpshots and transform to a stretch four or another position, we'd have lots more talented players.



#29 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:33 PM

Agreed. Switching from hitting the mid-range shots to focusing on offensive putbacks/rebounding and back and forth will make Hill unpredictable. But again, I'm going to emphasize that I hope D'antoni doesn't only want Hill to become a stretch four. If it was that easy to master jumpshots and transform to a stretch four or another position, we'd have lots more talented players.


That's the point of it basically.  

And I don't mind that at all.


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#30 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:35 PM


That's the point of it basically.  

And I don't mind that at all.

 

I hope so. It'll make us that much more difficult to defend. 



#31 fido

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:50 PM

Jeez, is D'Antoni gone yet?

 

This stretch 4 thing is ridiculous anyway.  But to take away Hill's natural rebounding drive and ability and try to push him out of the block is absolutely stupid.



#32 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:54 PM

I hope so. It'll make us that much more difficult to defend. 


yes and that's why this is a very good thing


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#33 Windu

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 08:57 PM

This stretch 4 thing is ridiculous anyway.  


Pau Gasol is GONE


#34 Thanatos

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 09:02 PM

Shooting 3s and rebounding? Well. It worked for Troy Murphy.

 

Do I think it'll work for Hill? No.


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#35 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 09:22 PM

Right.. Jordan Hill took 99 shots at the rim last year, he took 50 jumpers.   A little more than half

hillsc_medium.jpeg

That ruined the fact that he was the best offensive rebounder in the league for sure right?


Wait no it didn't...

Because he got equal opportunities to rebound as he did to get wide open mid range jumpers.


Having Hill add a mid range jump shot and becoming a better roll man on the pick and roll doesn't ruin him.

99 shots inside

56 jump shots. 

Didn't ruin a darn thing, his ORB was still the highest in the league.

Know why?  Cause he still got rebounding opportunities when OTHER people shot in the lane.  That's the point.  He'll still have opportunities for rebounds and put backs and even more opportunities to finish at the rim as a better roll man.   But whatever..adding a mid range jumper to his game ruins him completely as a player apparently. If he's pick and rolling nothing is stopping him from rebounding a point guard's miss if they miss the layup and keep going.

Getting a few mid range shots from Pau if they overload on him doesn't ruin his game.

You'd rather they both crowd the lane?  Or perhaps you'd like him to run double post with Jordan Hill and Pau Gasol...

You'd rather Pau have to force up a shot over 2 people while Hill waits for a putback slam depending on how it comes off.

Personally I'd rather have Pau feed Hill for a mid range shot and if it's consistent making us harder to defend.

If he doesn't work on that shot then people will defend him by crowding the lane on Pau and letting Hill shoot as many mid ranges as he wants.

If it becomes consistent the defense has to change.

Let's not act like Jordan Hill is this miraculous post player that can attack from the block and needs to be doubled.

He's a hustle guy.  His strengths are his rebounding and his hustle which is shut down if the lane is crowded on someone like Gasol if all he can do is cut to the basket.  He's not a post player.  He doesn't attack from the post.  Even last year how often did you see him attack from the post?     How many times did you see him post up on the block and beg for the ball and go to work?

Don't worry I'll wait...

Jordan Hill attacked as the roll man on the pick and roll, he was hit for a pick and pop for a mid range jumper, or he was a guy that scored off put backs and rebounds.

Why are we magically turning him into this awesome post player cause D'antoni asked him to work on his mid range jumper? -_-

Him having a mid range jumper HELPS us more than him staying a one dimensional hustle guy.

Jordan Hill with a consistent mid range jumper, better pick and roll footwork WITH hustle, defense and rebounding >  Jordan Hill with hustle, defense and rebounding only.


Edited by Majesty, August 12, 2013 - 09:31 PM.

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#36 FranklinPeanuts

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 09:31 PM

The stretch four idea sounds stupid. He's a back to the basket player. Adding the jumper is cool and all, but the guy gets his downlow. Look at Majesty's shot chart. He's butter in the paint..
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#37 Majesty

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Posted August 12, 2013 - 09:41 PM

The stretch four idea sounds stupid. He's a back to the basket player. Adding the jumper is cool and all, but the guy gets his downlow. Look at Majesty's shot chart. He's butter in the paint..


yep he is, because he gets put backs off of guards missing and is good at slipping between the cracks not because he's an awesome post player.  How many times have you EVER seen Jordan Hill get on the block, seal his man and ask for the ball to go to work in the post?  Never?  Exactly.. cause he ain't a post player!! -_-  Those inside shots come from put backs and off of other peoples misses, that's why his hustle is great and whether he was outside the paint or inside it he got to those rebounds.

But If you're trying to run post plays through Jordan Hill you're playing a losing game.


The problem with his roaming ability is that is that when the paint is overloaded he can't roam, and the only open shot he gets is a jump shot.  That's why 32% of his shots came from jumpers.   If he can't hit that shot, Kaman is gonna come in to replace him.

The reason is because eventually the paint is plugged defensively and the way people defended Hill was staying way off ball to him thus forcing him to take a mid range jumper and would leave him open.

If he has a consistent mid range jumper, defenses can't do that and it gives us more options.

No one's asking Jordan Hill to start jacking up 10 threes a game, but he DOES need to work on his jump shot, it was one of his one weaknesses, and on the games when it was on he looked GREAT.   It's pretty much what Haslem's role is with Miami, and he gets wide open mid range shots when the paint is crowded.  If he wasn't consistent with it then no one would pay for it and they'd just overload the paint 24/7 and LeBron would never take an uncontested layup.

 

It opens up the paint for pick and rolls as well as allowing Gasol to go to work without worry of doubles, cause if doubles come Hill can hit a mid range shot and then the defense can't do that anymore.

If the defense does adjust and tries to swing to Hill then the ball swings to the perimeter for an open shot from there.

That's how this works.  

Hill rolling to the basket as a better pick and roll man is good for this team.

Hill being able to hit the mid range jumper to keep people from doubling in the paint is good for this team.

Hill's still bringing his rebounding skills.   Hill's still bringing his hustle.    He's just trying to bring a consistent jumper along with it.    I don't mind it one bit.

He'll still get his rebounds the way he always does, off of other peoples misses.  It's not like he'll NEVER be in the paint for rebounding. 

If he sets a pick for the guard and the guard goes to the basket, is followed by the defense and misses, who is the guy behind the play in position for the rebound.  Hill.

He'll still get his rebounds, still get his hustle, but he'll be a more complete player and make life easier for Gasol in the post. 
 
Not something I'm gonna complain about.

How many freaking 3s do you think Kaman is gonna take when he and Gasol play minutes together?  Probably close to none.  But the reason D'antoni looks at him favorably is because he can consistently hit the mid range jumper and makes the horns set lethal.    He's looking at Hill the same way if Jordan can hit the mid range shot with consistency.  Nothing more nothing less. 

The stretch 4 that would be jacking up 3s would be Kelly.


Also... Jordan Hill during moments we were running him and Gasol with Nash.

Hill usually was standing at mid range distance so that he could either a) run a pick and roll with Nash or b) be open for a midrange shot and not clog the lane for Gasol.

BUT whenever the ball went up, Jordan immediately no matter where he was ran into the lane to get ready for the rebound.

The notion that him standing where he always stood is gonna take away from his rebounds is untrue.

The guy always runs to the paint no matter where he is on the court, and he rarely if ever crowded the paint with Gasol.   He'd stand off ball at mid range and he'd only move to cut, to get between a space, or to retrieve a rebound when he thinks a shot is gonna go up and he moves around the defense to do so.

Him getting a consistent mid range shot doesn't ruin his game at all and he's still gonna run in the lane for rebounds whenever the ball goes up



Notice here in a few plays what I mean(this is probably the closest to how we'll see Hill used, the Golden State game)

 



As well as here, whenever Hill thinks the shot is gonna go up(in this case Kobe's shot which turns into a pass) Hill goes to the lane, and gets ready for the rebound. 

If he doesn't get it he leaves the paint and waits for the ball to go up again and if it does he runs to the lane and fights for the rebound.

This doesn't change if he has a consistent jumper and I don't know why anyone would think it would.


Edited by Majesty, August 12, 2013 - 10:11 PM.

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#38 GCMD

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Posted August 13, 2013 - 07:18 AM

Jeez, is D'Antoni gone yet?

 

This stretch 4 thing is ridiculous anyway.  But to take away Hill's natural rebounding drive and ability and try to push him out of the block is absolutely stupid.

 

 

Lamar Odom did the same thing with Pau under Phil...still averaged over 10rpg on the regular.  Hill could do the same because he's an energy guy and a great offensive rebounder.

 

I don't think Hill should be shooting a lot of 3ptrs but I do believe that if he's shooting the mid-range J, that would give Kaman and Pau the room to operate in the post.  Great theory...execution went horribly wrong last year with Pau as the stretch and Howard on the low block...

 

If he's going to work on mid-range shooting, great.  If he's shooting 3's just to say he can, no...not good.

 

 

And I can name 10 AllStar PFs in the last 5-10 years with the same skillsets...Duncan, KG, Aldridge, Amare, Bosh, Z-Bo, Boozer, Dirk, David Lee, Pau...that's not even considering some of the Hall Of Famers like Malone, Barkley, McAdoo, McHale, Robinson, etc...

 

Mid-range shooting is NOT D'Antoni's "preference".  It's a good move for a player that wants more playing time...and it could help us even when D'Antoni isn't here...

 

 

If Phil and the triangle were here and he asked the same thing of Hill, would you have a problem with that?

 

No.



#39 nikolatesla

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Posted August 13, 2013 - 09:48 AM

It's a stupid thing for him to do. He is great at the post, he is effective when he is close to the rim. And he also has a consistent jumper too, remember he was hitting at a decent percentage from midrange before he got injured. Developing a better jumpshot, widening his range is great but becoming a stretch four is different and i don't like it.



#40 Majesty

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Posted August 13, 2013 - 01:19 PM

Lamar Odom did the same thing with Pau under Phil...still averaged over 10rpg on the regular. Hill could do the same because he's an energy guy and a great offensive rebounder.

I don't think Hill should be shooting a lot of 3ptrs but I do believe that if he's shooting the mid-range J, that would give Kaman and Pau the room to operate in the post. Great theory...execution went horribly wrong last year with Pau as the stretch and Howard on the low block...

If he's going to work on mid-range shooting, great. If he's shooting 3's just to say he can, no...not good.


And I can name 10 AllStar PFs in the last 5-10 years with the same skillsets...Duncan, KG, Aldridge, Amare, Bosh, Z-Bo, Boozer, Dirk, David Lee, Pau...that's not even considering some of the Hall Of Famers like Malone, Barkley, McAdoo, McHale, Robinson, etc...

Mid-range shooting is NOT D'Antoni's "preference". It's a good move for a player that wants more playing time...and it could help us even when D'Antoni isn't here...


If Phil and the triangle were here and he asked the same thing of Hill, would you have a problem with that?

No.

that's what hill said.

He said "we have Pau in the post and Kaman for the block, I don't need to be in the post, cause I score on offensive rebounds and putbacks, so I'll be getting a lot of easy shots."

He basically said this so that means he is mastering the mid range and pick and roll game to gel better with Gasol and or Kaman as well as trying to get a pick n pop game which would help even more in general and in gelling with Gasol or Kaman. What is the problem with this?

Hill's not a post player.

Edited by Majesty, August 13, 2013 - 01:20 PM.

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