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Why Jordan Hill is best frontcourt defender on Lakers roster


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#1 Majesty

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:11 PM

Discussion came up some time ago as to how good Jordan Hill would be defensively for our team, well here's an article highlighting just how useful he could be.  Enjoy. Especially with Rambis' strong side zone.  Enjoy
 

Why Jordan Hill is best frontcourt defender on Lakers roster

 

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Jordan Hill is far and away the best frontcourt defender on the Los Angeles Lakers. With the individual defensive weaknesses of Pau Gasol and Chris Kaman, the Lakers will need to use Hill to balance out the frontcourt. If the hiring of Kurt Rambis to join Mike D'Antoni's coaching staff indicates one thing it's a nod that the Lakers will be doing something different on defense in 2013-2014. It might be terrible, might work out, but there's going to be some shift in what they did on defense last season, which was __________.

Case rested.

 

Hill is at least five years younger than both Kaman and Gasol and is the most mobile defender of the three. Hill's injury problems serve as a barrier to his productivity. He has now become the most important frontcourt defender on the Lakers' roster.
 

His individual athleticism and foot speed is solid for a 6'10 frontcourt player. While he isn't in the elite category of hybrid small forwards who slide up, he's still very good.
 

Here, Hill rotates onto Manu Ginobili as he moves off-ball. Hill is pulled out to the perimeter because of the switch and deflects Ginobili's shot:

 

 

Hill being able to chase a player onto the perimeter in that scenario is something that Gasol and Kaman cannot do. Obviously he isn't defending LeBron James or Kevin Durant, but his mobility is a utility the Lakers can use in their defensive schemes.

 

In fact, the Lakers even gave a glimpse of what a strong side zone defense could work.

Here the Lakers are actually in a strong side zone formation. Gasol has floated to the elbow to cover over the top on dribble penetration, his man on the perimeter and to be the player that Chris Duhon funnels him into. Applying pressure to ball-handlers is a principle of the strong side zone, which Duhon is doing here. Metta World Peace is the third defender on the strong side in the corner.

 

That leaves Hill to be the mobile big who helps at the rim as the last line of defense or has to slide back out to defend the weak side corner three.

 

2_1_ssz_medium.jpg

 

(MORE PICS IN THE ARTICLE)

The Blazers pass to Sasha Pavlovic in the corner and Hill immediately rotates from the paint.

 

Hill picks up Pavolovic on the perimeter and deflects the shot.

 

Here's the sequence in action:

 

 

The strong side zone is a great way to hide the stone pillar legs of Kaman and Gasol and could be used depending on lineups and match-ups. The Lakers will also need the perimeter defender -- in the example above Kobe Bryant -- to be able to close out and play passing lanes. The Lakers will have options in that area with Wesley Johnson, Nick Young, Marcus Landry and Elias Harris to kick the tires of as of now.

 

Where Hill really outshines Kaman and Gasol is in defending the ball-handler out of high-screen sets.

Here, he'll cut off dribble penetration twice on the perimeter, then blocks the shot after sliding with the ball-handler to the rim:

 

 

Schemes aside, having a player who can defend the ball-handler is necessary in the NBA. Hill should see floor time for this reason alone. A structured defense could help Hill grow as a team defender and is one of the keys to Rambis discussed with Los Angeles Daily News' Mark Medina :

 

Even if you take wing screen-and-roll, there's a lot of things offensively that can happen. How to defend all those different options. A wing screen-and-roll involving Dwight Howard and a wing screen-and-roll involving Dirk Nowitzki makes you defend it differently. We have to go through that process to make sure we're all on the same page to look at those situations and defend him. That's a simplistic example, but it's clear the difference between the two.

 

 

Here's another example of Hill's individual efforts serving as the glue to the Lakers' team defense.

 

David West set's a high screen for D.J. Augustin. Hill can crowd closer into the ball-handler than Gasol or Kaman. He picks up Augustin and cuts off his first probe from the screen.

 

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(MORE PICS IN ARTICLE)

 

Hill rotates and shifts with Augustin as he cuts to the elbow. Augustin passes back to West who has stepped up to the free throw line. Hill rotates back onto West.

 

West faces Hill up, who does a good job of staying in front of West who drives straight into him. Hill doesn't foul and forces West to put up a tough shot.
 

 

Video of the possession:

 

dasd

 

READ MORE HERE(GOES INTO HIS DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING AND ITS EFFECTIVENESS AS WELL)

 

Enjoy.   Hope we get to see more of this out of him this year and with a defensive mind like Rambis and his strong size zone nature as well as pick and roll defense being his specialities of teaching in a team defensive philosophy, Hill can cover some of Pau and Kaman's mistakes on defense when they aren't rim protecting.

Really want him to start because of this and he can mesh with Kaman or Gasol at the 5 with him as the 4 either way.


Anyway hope you enjoyed :)


Edited by Majesty, August 09, 2013 - 03:16 PM.

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#2 bfc1125roy

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:16 PM

The fact that this is true just shows how much our defense will suck next year 



#3 24allday

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:18 PM

Hill is not a good defender.. he's really overrated on defense imo. There was an article with him as one of the worst 1on1 defenders in the league, can't remember where I found it. Hill is a good rebounder and thats it.. so our defense is gonna be god awful



#4 Ham

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:26 PM

Hill is not a good defender.. he's really overrated on defense imo. There was an article with him as one of the worst 1on1 defenders in the league, can't remember where I found it. Hill is a good rebounder and thats it.. so our defense is gonna be god awful

Post the article.


Mike D'Antoni is GARBAGE.


#5 Majesty

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:28 PM

Post the article.


I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that the article is from YEARS ago when he was on the Rockets.

But since people can't improve defensively over time or work on it at all in this world it's relevant now then :)

No one calls him a "great" defender.  But he defends pick and roll well, has enough lateral quickness and footwork to chase down point guards, and is a very good asset in the strong side zone defensive schemes Rambis likes to roll with and is a good strong side help defender and shot blocker.

Those are all positives that can help our team defensively. 

But it won't take long for people to try to tear that down as if people are calling him a "great" defender.

He's not "great" but he's good in the areas we'd need him and is defensively competent and fits in perfectly with our concept as well as with the schemes our assistant likes to run. 

But of course all that will be disregarded by some fans unless he's the best defensive power forward in the league :smh:


Edited by Majesty, August 09, 2013 - 03:34 PM.

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#6 Michaelyumm

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:33 PM

kaman is our best low post defender



#7 PurPnYellowLaker

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 03:58 PM

Hillsa beast on d .

#8 KobeWillReturnTriumphant

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 05:11 PM

Sad to say Rambis might be a better defender, today, than some of the lakers currently on the roster.

Edited by KobeWillReturnTriumphant, August 09, 2013 - 05:13 PM.


#9 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 05:28 PM

Jordan Hill is an energy-guy that can snatch quick rebounds and deliver a quick block. Slow the pace down, post-up, and Hill isn't such a great defender anymore.



#10 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 05:45 PM

If Jordan Hill is our best defender we are in a world of trouble...enjoy that deep sleep you are in Majesty..

 

Kaman ranked: 93rd in post up D and 110th in PnR defense

 

Pau ranked: 67th in post up D and 62nd in PnR defense

 

D12 ranked: 8th!!!!! in post up D and 31st in PnR defense

 

You will see wtf we are missing as soon as we play the Clippers first game.


"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#11 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 05:54 PM

If Jordan Hill is our best defender we are in a world of trouble...enjoy that deep sleep you are in Majesty..

 

Kaman ranked: 93rd in post up D and 110th in PnR defense

 

Pau ranked: 67th in post up D and 62nd in PnR defense

 

D12 ranked: 8th!!!!! in post up D and 31st in PnR defense

 

You will see wtf we are missing as soon as we play the Clippers first game.

 

Where did you get those stats? I've been looking for a site that delineates the post up and P&R defense of a respective player. (I haven't read the article yet, so oops if you got it from that haha )



#12 Jody Smokes

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 05:58 PM

http://mysynergysports.com/  it has all of last season's info.  I think if you buy a subscription you can get a ton more information. 


Edited by Jody Smokes, August 09, 2013 - 05:58 PM.

"Blake and Parker are good at canceling each other out till our bench point guard comes in"  - Majesty aka Bird Ish (12/4/13)


#13 Clutch Factor

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 06:00 PM

http://mysynergysports.com/  it has all of last season's info.  I think if you buy a subscription you can get a ton more information. 

 

I see. Thanks, Jody!



#14 Majesty

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 06:08 PM

If Jordan Hill is our best defender we are in a world of trouble...enjoy that deep sleep you are in Majesty..

 

Kaman ranked: 93rd in post up D and 110th in PnR defense

 

Pau ranked: 67th in post up D and 62nd in PnR defense

 

D12 ranked: 8th!!!!! in post up D and 31st in PnR defense

 

You will see wtf we are missing as soon as we play the Clippers first game.



i'm glad that Kaman and Pau aren't the guys that's gonna be chasing guys off the pick and roll then at the 4 then.  We're pretty aware that both Kaman and Gasol would be hurt on the pick and rolls which is why they'd be relied upon on the strong side and not counted on as iso defenders.

Again, strong side zone makes it harder for them to be taken advantage of in those respects, which if you read the article would have understood that. 

Your numbers would actually mean something if we were intending on playing Gasol and Kaman as pick and roll stoppers or iso defenders.

We aren't. So what is your point again?

Nice try though.


let's break down those numbers further  you don't post percentages for a reason.

Pau Gasol


Gasol was ranked 67th in post up defense of post ups.

But how much of a percentage did people that posted up on Gasol score on him.


People that posted up on Gasol only scored 38% of the time....

Wait what!?!?!?

Pick and roll defense OBVIOUSLY he sucked at when he's the 4, this has been discussed countless time.

Chris Kaman 

People that posted up on Chris Kaman only scored.. 38% of the time. 

Wait what!?!?!?! 

Kaman is ranked 93rd...

So you're telling me the difference between 67th and 93rd is less than a percent!?!?!?

Oy vey no wonder you didn't post the percentages actually scored on them -_-


nice try though yet again


Edited by Majesty, August 09, 2013 - 06:32 PM.

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#15 24allday

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 06:19 PM


I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that the article is from YEARS ago when he was on the Rockets.

But since people can't improve defensively over time or work on it at all in this world it's relevant now then :)

No one calls him a "great" defender.  But he defends pick and roll well, has enough lateral quickness and footwork to chase down point guards, and is a very good asset in the strong side zone defensive schemes Rambis likes to roll with and is a good strong side help defender and shot blocker.

Those are all positives that can help our team defensively. 

But it won't take long for people to try to tear that down as if people are calling him a "great" defender.

He's not "great" but he's good in the areas we'd need him and is defensively competent and fits in perfectly with our concept as well as with the schemes our assistant likes to run. 

But of course all that will be disregarded by some fans unless he's the best defensive power forward in the league :smh:

http://www.sloanspor...for the NBA.pdf

 

Right here's the article.. he's with David Lee and Kevin Love in terms of defending.. ouch. Not everyone gets a boost in every stat just because they are wearing the P&G, Majesty.  :thumbup:



#16 Lemon

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 06:22 PM

Where Hill really outshines Kaman and Gasol is in defending the ball-handler out of high-screen sets.

 

This pretty much is the difference.

 

Remember when Hill had is breakout year? It was because he really outshined Gasol and Bynum in pick n roll defense. He switched quickly, was willing to come out outside the paint, and he uses his feet as much as his length.

 

The article mentions nothing about post defense though. Gasol and Kaman are simply much better there because of size and mass.

 

Now that D'Antoni abandoned his original system, hopefully we'll be able to see Hill in an optimal position. A position where we can see as much value in him as we saw in Clark as opposed to the useless position D'Antoni stuck him in last season.



#17 Majesty

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 06:22 PM

http://www.sloanspor...for the NBA.pdf

 

Right here's the article.. he's with David Lee and Kevin Love in terms of defending.. ouch. Not everyone gets a boost in every stat just because they are wearing the P&G, Majesty.  :thumbup:


he's 7 players below Marc Gasol the reigning defensive player of the year undeservedly so mind you and above both Love and Lee ;)

We don't need Hill to be "great" we need him to be good at what he can do.    And he defends high screen sets well and strong side zone well.  These are the things we need him to excel at.  Like I said he doesn't need to be a "great" defender.  He just needs to be effective at defending high screen sets as well as in strong side zone.  And he is.    Not being one of the top 10 defenders in the league doesn't change that


Also you neglect to mention Hill's effectiveness guarding from the mid range or from the three point line on switches where only 17.9% and 20.3% is scored against him which is in that very article.

That's pretty much where we'll need him, on mid switches and following shooters to the perimeter on switches and being able to stop them effectively.

THIS is what the article I posted was constantly pointing out.

Hill's strength isn't guarding the post in an iso, it's guarding the perimeter on switches and high-screen sets.

And the article and stats you just linked proves that point exactly :laughing:

Silly billy.


Edited by Majesty, August 09, 2013 - 06:28 PM.

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#18 DanishLakerFan

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 10:05 PM

Hill isn't our best defender next season, Kobe is (if he wants to). But Hill is a good fit with the guys we have because of his offensive rebounding and ability to switch on defense. That'll give us more posessions on O and help in areas where we have weaknesses on D. Plain and simple. 

 

The Sloan article should be read very carefully before used, because if focus on specific areas. Thus, you cant say: 

He's with David Lee and Kevin Love in terms of defending.. ouch. Not everyone gets a boost in every stat just because they are wearing the P&G, Majesty.  :thumbup:

because it's focus is on a certain type of defense. Hill is not an interior rim protecter or isolation defender, his strength lies in help defense, rebounding, hustle and closing out on shooters. A bit similar to Anderson Varejao, who also is at the bottom in proximal FG%. The fact that Andrea [expletive]ing Bargnani is 2nd on the list shows that this article doesn't really summarize a players' defensive capabilites, but rather highligts specific aspects of interior defense. 

 

Also, i'm so [expletive]ing tired of hearing people either being completely down on the Lakers' capabilities next season OR either totally optimistic. Why is there no middle ground? Looking at our roster we're a 7th -12th seed, unless some of our guys really improve or we make som mid-season changes. 



#19 Majesty

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 10:10 PM

Hill isn't our best defender next season, Kobe is (if he wants to). But Hill is a good fit with the guys we have because of his offensive rebounding and ability to switch on defense. That'll give us more posessions on O and help in areas where we have weaknesses on D. Plain and simple. 

 

The Sloan article should be read very carefully before used, because if focus on specific areas. Thus, you cant say: 


because it's focus is on a certain type of defense. Hill is not an interior rim protecter or isolation defender, his strength lies in help defense, rebounding, hustle and closing out on shooters. A bit similar to Anderson Varejao, who also is at the bottom in proximal FG%. The fact that Andrea [expletive]ing Bargnani is 2nd on the list shows that this article doesn't really summarize a players' defensive capabilites, but rather highligts specific aspects of interior defense. 

 

Also, i'm so [expletive]ing tired of hearing people either being completely down on the Lakers' capabilities next season OR either totally optimistic. Why is there no middle ground? Looking at our roster we're a 7th -12th seed, unless some of our guys really improve or we make som mid-season changes. 



yep Hill's strength is that

Hill's effectiveness guarding from the mid range or from the three point line on switches where only 17.9% and 20.3% is scored against him which is in that very article.


He's not an isolation or post defender, his strength is switches and being able to effectively switch on shooters off pick and roll at mid range or at the three point line. He's one of the few big men who you don't mind guarding at the perimeter on a switch.


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores 


#20 GCMD

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Posted August 09, 2013 - 10:55 PM

Strong Side Zone?  LOL...that was a hybrid 2-1-2 / 2-3 zone with your 3 on the right side, 4 on the left (because most players are much slower attacking with their left), 5 plays the middle high when the ball is on the wing and low when it reaches either corner.  1 plays the ball on the right wing, 2 on left.  Almost any coach worth his salt can install that zone in one practice easy.  If that's what this article is hanging it's hat on, wow.  And P&R defense?  He looked much better than Pau because he is much quicker laterally and was not hampered by plantar fasciitis.

 

Hill isn't a bad defender...he's just not spectacular.  One of the things he can do well which will help our defense is change ends quickly.  Pau doesn't do that well when he's hurt (but nor does 99% of the NBA) and even when he's healthy, changing ends quickly doesn't help him move his feet to protect the rim.  Kaman can't rotate quickly to cover shooters or protect the rim...and he's not a gazelle in the open court...he's not sloth either...Both Pau and Kaman are better post defenders than rim protectors. 

 

 

Does that not remind a lot of people of Marc Gasol?  How did MEM become a good defensive team?

 

Rotations.

 

Playing defense well as a team requires having a game plan that everyone knows like the back of their hand and STICKS to.  There are a PLETHORA of defensive schemes that can hide either Kaman or Pau in a halfcourt set.  The problem we are going to have is when we have to play Pau and Kaman TOGETHER...that's when we need to out rebound everyone by at least 10rpg to have even a slim chance of being a mediocre defensive team.

 

Hill+Pau OR Hill+Kaman = GOOD

Pau+Kaman = BAD

 

It's that simple.

 

I'm not worried about any other position nearly as much as I am the 4/5 rotation...that's why I believe Pau should be moved ASAP for a younger, faster, defensive minded PF...not likely but it's what will help.  Teams are going smaller a lot more now and PF is one of those positions that's evolved to incorporate speed and athleticism more than length and bulk or even back to the basket post moves.  With aging stars, can we realy afford to not evolve also?

 

 

All other criticisms of all other positions are premature.  We have adequate length and athleticism to defend with the best of them, 1-3.  4/5?  LOL...lots of length and bulk but no speed and average athleticism (at best).


Edited by GCMD, August 09, 2013 - 11:05 PM.





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