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#81 DanishLakerFan

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 11:03 AM

Harden is 23 and have been to one finals*, been to one all-star game and has one all-nba nomination.

When Kobe was 23, he just won his 3rd NBA championship, 4 consequtive all-star games, 4 all-nba teams and 3 all-defensive teams.

 

*Harden went to the Finals riding the back of Durant and Westbrook and when he got to the finals, he choked.

 

James Harden and Dwight Howard can kiss my hairy danish ass! 



#82 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 11:20 AM


Harden's been in the league for 4 years.

Kobe had been in the league 2.  When Kobe was in his 4th year he was winning an NBA Championships with Shaq on the bench beating Reggie Miller in overtime against the Pacers.   

As far as Harden goes he got starter minutes in OKC and was often in games at the same time as Durant and Westbrook.  Let's not act like he was played like a "bench" player in OKC when he played 31 mins per game his last year there.  he played in every game, got high minutes and high usage among Durant and Westbrook ever since he got to OKC. So let's not act like he was some firghtened child pushed into the spotlight for the first time when he left OKC, he got played starter minutes(31 in his final year) per game, he came off the bench but he was pretty much their starter as he was part of the mane lineup, Seph was only out there at the start for defensive reasons but Harden usually followed and played a majority of the games.    He played alongside TWO superstars for a majority of his career and got a majority of his minutes next to them.


Contrast that with Kobe who his first years in the league where he was left on the bench and more or less not part of the offense.

Actually let's compare when Kobe and Harden both came off the bench, when Kobe finally was played as if he was a 6th man when he was 18(after being benched his rookie year for the most part) and compare it to Harden at 22 the year before he was played starter minutes in OKC


Kobe Bryant
Minutes per game: 26
PPG: 15.4
Assists: 2.5

James Harden
minutes per game: 26
PPG: 12.2
assists: 2.1

OH SNAP!! Kobe averaged more points and assists off the bench at 18 then Harden did at 22 ... stop the presses!! 
The next year Harden was played 30 mins a game coming off the bench so lets not act like he had NO experience starting, he WAS pretty much their starter with Seph only starting games for defensive reasons but then Harden would come in and play most of the game after and was ALWAYS finishing games.

So there goes that excuse.

 



Bernard King shot 58% from the field as a main option... Harden shoots a lower percentage than Monta Ellis AND Nick Young :smh:   He doesn't belong in the same breath as him or Karl Malone.

 

He was marketed as a superstar alongside Westbrook and Durant and was usually featured as one of the three of them and was basically played like a starter and his beard is what made him marketable if all the commercials he got didn't prove it to you.

Face facts, Harden didn't choke in the finals and in the first round cause he wasn't Marketed right or hasn't had a chance, he choked in the finals because they were when the lights shined brightest on him, and he choked in the first round for the same reasons.

It's easy to look fantastic when you got Durant and Westbrook giving you wide open jump shots, but when you're given the ball and asked to go win games and be "the man" and you drop 20% shooting percentages beneath your average in the first freaking round, you deserve to be looked at with a side eye.

Don't even mention that guy in the same breath as Bernard King, Karl Malone or even Kobe Bryant for that matter.   He couldn't keep up with Kobe when Kobe was 18 and Harden is in his "prime" and he can't even keep up with Kobe now when Kobe is 34 and he's 24 -_-

This debate should have never happened.  Hopefully now that's the end of it.

:clap:



#83 LakersGAFan

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 11:23 AM

Harden is 23 and have been to one finals*, been to one all-star game and has one all-nba nomination.

When Kobe was 23, he just won his 3rd NBA championship, 4 consequtive all-star games, 4 all-nba teams and 3 all-defensive teams.

 

*Harden went to the Finals riding the back of Durant and Westbrook and when he got to the finals, he choked.

 

James Harden and Dwight Howard can kiss my hairy danish ass! 

Everything you said is accurate but you omitted the fact Kobe had Shaq on his team. They had each others coat tails, thats why they were so great. If Kobe had been drafted by the Charlotte and a trade didn't happen a different reality of less success would be probable.

So not to defend Harden because he can suck it....but he hasnt really had the chance to do anything of meaning yet.



#84 lakersince75

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 06:38 PM

Exactly!! I do believe Kobe not only had Shaq. Horrace Grant, Rick Fox, D Fish, Ron Harper and more.. Is Majesty serious?????  I see he never commented on how Harden was kickin our ass every time OKC played us

Everything you said is accurate but you omitted the fact Kobe had Shaq on his team. They had each others coat tails, thats why they were so great. If Kobe had been drafted by the Charlotte and a trade didn't happen a different reality of less success would be probable.

So not to defend Harden because he can suck it....but he hasnt really had the chance to do anything of meaning yet.



#85 Majesty

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 06:43 PM

Exactly!! I do believe Kobe not only had Shaq. Horrace Grant, Rick Fox, D Fish, Ron Harper and more.. Is Majesty serious?????  I see he never commented on how Harden was kickin our ass every time OKC played us



Harden had Russel Westbrook and Kevin Durant and was playing 30 mins a game with them and was a main part of their entire rotation for 2 years straight.

Stop the madness.

No one's gonna believe the "well Harden didn't have superstars" YES HE DID.  He had two of them and he was considered the 3rd, he played 30 mins a night with them, that's starter minutes.   So that argument doesn't work. 

He had the chance to do something of meaning

 

 

 

Everything you said is accurate but you omitted the fact Kobe had Shaq on his team. They had each others coat tails, thats why they were so great. If Kobe had been drafted by the Charlotte and a trade didn't happen a different reality of less success would be probable.

So not to defend Harden because he can suck it....but he hasnt really had the chance to do anything of meaning yet.


He had the chance to do something of meaning when he went to the NBA finals with Kevin Durant and Russel Westbrook whom are both superstars, one the 2nd best player in the league, the other a superstar point guard and debated among the top 3 in the league at that position.

Harden had his chance with Westbrook and Durant sucking up the BULK of the defensive attention and finding him for wide open shots and he choked.

Put Harden on that Lakers team and do the Lakers win that year?   Put Kobe on the Thunder team with Durant and Westbrook, and do they lose to the Heat?  

Exactly.

Anyway back to Kobe..

Kobe WAS the focal point of that offense, not only that but it was HIS job to primarily get Shaq involved whom had no idea how to play in the triangle.   His role was significantly bigger and he won in the finals, Harden was getting spoonfed wide open jumpers off the coat tails of TWO superstars and choked.   There is no defense for him unfortunately.   And then as "the man" he drops 20% points in his shooting percentage and his career turnover rate doubles and in the first round of the playoffs? Against a Thunder team with NO Westbrook!?!?!?
See the pattern?  He couldn't do it riding the coat tails of 2 other superstars, yet he is expected to do it while running his own team?  

yeah.. good luck with that James.


Edited by Majesty, August 06, 2013 - 06:51 PM.

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#86 lakersince75

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 07:08 PM

Last I checked Kobe lost a number of championships with the likes of Shaq and Pau.  Hmmmmm   As a matter of fact Mr Stat Man. What was the Lakers record when Kobe didn't have Shaq or Pau vs Harden's Rockets last year?? I actually don't know the answer but I'm sure you can find it quickly



Harden had Russel Westbrook and Kevin Durant and was playing 30 mins a game with them and was a main part of their entire rotation for 2 years straight.

Stop the madness.

No one's gonna believe the "well Harden didn't have superstars" YES HE DID.  He had two of them and he was considered the 3rd, he played 30 mins a night with them, that's starter minutes.   So that argument doesn't work. 

He had the chance to do something of meaning

 

 

 


He had the chance to do something of meaning when he went to the NBA finals with Kevin Durant and Russel Westbrook whom are both superstars, one the 2nd best player in the league, the other a superstar point guard and debated among the top 3 in the league at that position.

Harden had his chance with Westbrook and Durant sucking up the BULK of the defensive attention and finding him for wide open shots and he choked.

Put Harden on that Lakers team and do the Lakers win that year?   Put Kobe on the Thunder team with Durant and Westbrook, and do they lose to the Heat?  

Exactly.

Anyway back to Kobe..

Kobe WAS the focal point of that offense, not only that but it was HIS job to primarily get Shaq involved whom had no idea how to play in the triangle.   His role was significantly bigger and he won in the finals, Harden was getting spoonfed wide open jumpers off the coat tails of TWO superstars and choked.   There is no defense for him unfortunately.   And then as "the man" he drops 20% points in his shooting percentage and his career turnover rate doubles and in the first round of the playoffs? Against a Thunder team with NO Westbrook!?!?!?
See the pattern?  He couldn't do it riding the coat tails of 2 other superstars, yet he is expected to do it while running his own team?  

yeah.. good luck with that James.



#87 Majesty

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 07:17 PM

Last I checked Kobe lost a number of championships with the likes of Shaq and Pau.  Hmmmmm   As a matter of fact Mr Stat Man. What was the Lakers record when Kobe didn't have Shaq or Pau vs Harden's Rockets last year?? I actually don't know the answer but I'm sure you can find it quickly


Now you're desperately trying to reach and bottom feed.

"Oh how did the Lakers do with no Pau last year?" 

 With our full lineup we beat the Rockets.

The only other time the Rockets beat us was without Gasol or without Gasol AND Howard.

I don't know how you're trying to make that a knock against Kobe who had 22/11/11 as well as a 39 point outing against them.


But I can see you're bottom feeding now just DESPERATELY trying to find some sort of avenue to have an advantage "How did the Lakers do against the Rockets without Pau or Dwight or etc".  Really dude?  Are you that beaten by my points that you have to actually start listing games we lost due to players not playing? 

If you've gotten that desperate you've already lost the argument and are bottom feeding for an advantage now.  This discussion is over and you've lost :) Take it like a man.  Good day sir.


And oh yeah Kobe lost in the NBA finals before.. yep that's true.  Yep.. he lost to the two greatest defensive teams in the NBA of the past 30 years :smh:   One with which's entire plan was to stop Kobe from getting Shaq involved in games cause he knew he(Shaq) would be lost without Kobe getting him involved.

on the other hand

Harden lost to the Heat and the Thunder :smh:    Against the Heat he was riding the coattails of Westbrook and Durant who were force feeding him wide open shots that he choked on. Please tell me you aren't comparing the pressure on Harden to that on Kobe.  Please tell me you aren't comparing both those teams that beat the Lakers to the Thunder and the Heat..just stop.

There's no point in arguing with you anymore, you're just getting desperate now.  Rather sad actually.

Good day sir. 
 


Edited by Majesty, August 06, 2013 - 07:19 PM.

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#88 lakersince75

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 07:17 PM

Never seen Majesty take so long with a stat. I wonder why??



#89 lakersince75

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 07:19 PM

And in typical fashion the subject gets changed. Oh well


Now you're desperately trying to reach and bottom feed.

"Oh how did the Lakers do with no Pau last year?" 

 With our full lineup we beat the Rockets.

The only other time the Rockets beat us was without Gasol or without Gasol AND Howard.

I don't know how you're trying to make that a knock against Kobe who had 22/11/11 as well as a 39 point outing against them.


But I can see you're bottom feeding now just DESPERATELY trying to find some sort of avenue to have an advantage "How did the Lakers do against the Rockets without Pau or Dwight or etc".  Really dude?  Are you that beaten by my points that you have to actually start listing games we lost due to players not playing? 

If you've gotten that desperate you've already lost the argument and are bottom feeding for an advantage now.  This discussion is over and you've lost :) Take it like a man.  Good day sir.


And oh yeah Kobe lost in the NBA finals before.. yep that's true.  Yep.. he lost to thw two greatest defensive teams in the NBA of the past 30 years :smh:    Harden lost to the Heat and the Thunder :smh:    Please tell me you aren't..

There's no point in arguing with you anymore, you're just getting desperate now.  Rather sad actually.

Good day sir. 
 



#90 lakersince75

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 07:23 PM

My bad. Maybe I wasn't clear. I was referring to the full years record when Kobe did not have Shaq or Pau on the roster. In other words. Kobe by himself with LA and that pitiful team Harden had last year



#91 Majesty

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 07:24 PM

My bad. Maybe I wasn't clear. I was referring to the full years record when Kobe did not have Shaq or Pau on the roster. In other words. Kobe by himself with LA and that pitiful team Harden had last year



Oh yes because Asik, Parsons and Lin are so much worse than Smush, Kwame and Luke Walton :laughing:

This is getting laughable :)


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#92 Harry Styles

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 08:00 PM


Now you're desperately trying to reach and bottom feed.

"Oh how did the Lakers do with no Pau last year?" 

 With our full lineup we beat the Rockets.

The only other time the Rockets beat us was without Gasol or without Gasol AND Howard.

I don't know how you're trying to make that a knock against Kobe who had 22/11/11 as well as a 39 point outing against them.


But I can see you're bottom feeding now just DESPERATELY trying to find some sort of avenue to have an advantage "How did the Lakers do against the Rockets without Pau or Dwight or etc".  Really dude?  Are you that beaten by my points that you have to actually start listing games we lost due to players not playing? 

If you've gotten that desperate you've already lost the argument and are bottom feeding for an advantage now.  This discussion is over and you've lost :) Take it like a man.  Good day sir.


And oh yeah Kobe lost in the NBA finals before.. yep that's true.  Yep.. he lost to the two greatest defensive teams in the NBA of the past 30 years :smh:   One with which's entire plan was to stop Kobe from getting Shaq involved in games cause he knew he(Shaq) would be lost without Kobe getting him involved.

on the other hand

Harden lost to the Heat and the Thunder :smh:    Against the Heat he was riding the coattails of Westbrook and Durant who were force feeding him wide open shots that he choked on. Please tell me you aren't comparing the pressure on Harden to that on Kobe.  Please tell me you aren't comparing both those teams that beat the Lakers to the Thunder and the Heat..just stop.

There's no point in arguing with you anymore, you're just getting desperate now.  Rather sad actually.

Good day sir. 
 

Kobe choked in 2004. I don't see how you can deny that. There were times when Shaq had position on his defender and Kobe would shoot contested jumpers instead of passing. Shaq averaged 26.6 pts on 63% shooting. Meanwhile, shooting contested jumpers over 2 guys got Kobe an outstanding 22.6 pts on 38% shooting. There were plenty of chances for Kobe to get Shaq the ball down low against Wallace but he chose otherwise. It was the most selfish I've ever seen Kobe play in my life. 


Edited by Harry Styles, August 06, 2013 - 08:00 PM.


#93 Ham

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 09:16 PM

he lost to the two greatest defensive teams in the NBA of the past 30 years :smh:   One with which's entire plan was to stop Kobe from getting Shaq involved in games cause he knew he(Shaq) would be lost without Kobe getting him involved.

 

The triangle offense choked. 


Edited by Ham, August 06, 2013 - 09:21 PM.

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#94 Majesty

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 09:54 PM

The triangle offense choked. 



Nah Larry Brown had a perfect game plan to shut down the Shaq and Kobe connection.  Was a brilliant idea, he cut off any cohesion between those two.  The situations are incomparable as no built a gameplan towards Harden not getting the ball or not getting it to Westbrook or Durant nor were they one of the top 2 defensive teams of the last 30 years.

 


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#95 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 10:16 PM

That Detroit team was more talented. that what it ALWAYS boils down too.

 

We didn't have horry(Spurs), or Fox(injured), Payton and Fisher were not better than Billups. Rip was enough of productivity to offset Kobe in some regards. Prince was better than any of our None Big 2. Ben Wallace is the greatest defensive center under 6'10 in the past 30+ years. rasheed Wallace is a better player historically than Lamar odom in his absolute prime.

 

 

Shaq was beyond his 200 season, which was his best by far, and it was 5 years later essentially. His numbers had less impact.

 

Even taking it to the 1st title.

 

Lakers were down by 15 to Portland in the 4th of the 7th game of the series, when kobe sparked a comeback

 

And in a pivotal game 4, when Shaq FOULED OUT, and Kobe was going against Reggie Miller for the TITLE, who won that battle?

 

 

Westbrook BEASTED in the Finals btw. His IMPACT was on point. He has mamba blood, I don't care what you say about his skill. And he went to my high school, where the REAL BALLERS GO( Shout out to Dorell Wright)

 

 

But Harden is a smooth player. A great talent and I guess if you put Westbrook's confidence and FIRE , with Harden's skilled footwork, you get a young Kobe.



#96 Harry Styles

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 10:21 PM

That Detroit team was more talented. that what it ALWAYS boils down too.

 

We didn't have horry(Spurs), or Fox(injured), Payton and Fisher were not better than Billups. Rip was enough of productivity to offset Kobe in some regards. Prince was better than any of our None Big 2. Ben Wallace is the greatest defensive center under 6'10 in the past 30+ years. rasheed Wallace is a better player historically than Lamar odom in his absolute prime.

 

 

Shaq was beyond his 200 season, which was his best by far, and it was 5 years later essentially. His numbers had less impact.

 

Even taking it to the 1st title.

 

Lakers were down by 15 to Portland in the 4th of the 7th game of the series, when kobe sparked a comeback

 

And in a pivotal game 4, when Shaq FOULED OUT, and Kobe was going against Reggie Miller for the TITLE, who won that battle?

 

 

Westbrook BEASTED in the Finals btw. His IMPACT was on point. He has mamba blood, I don't care what you say about his skill. And he went to my high school, where the REAL BALLERS GO( Shout out to Dorell Wright)

 

 

But Harden is a smooth player. A great talent and I guess if you put Westbrook's confidence and FIRE , with Harden's skilled footwork, you get a young Kobe.

Ben Wallace was good but he could do nothing to stop Shaq. He averaged 26.6 pts on 63% shooting and he wasn't even averaging the most shot attempts. Shaq was having his way with him. If he had gotten the ball more down low, things may have been different. We'll never know. 



#97 BasketballIQ

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Posted August 06, 2013 - 11:24 PM

Ben Wallace was good but he could do nothing to stop Shaq. He averaged 26.6 pts on 63% shooting and he wasn't even averaging the most shot attempts. Shaq was having his way with him. If he had gotten the ball more down low, things may have been different. We'll never know. 

Would Shaq had averaged 50 against them?

 

 

They swept us except for a game Kobe willed us to victory and even still, so what

 

We made the Finals that year, it was a good run. We won the West which was a PARTY day in LA, I remember the streets were filled with people when we beat the Spurs that season



#98 DanishLakerFan

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Posted August 07, 2013 - 03:51 AM

Everything you said is accurate but you omitted the fact Kobe had Shaq on his team. They had each others coat tails, thats why they were so great. If Kobe had been drafted by the Charlotte and a trade didn't happen a different reality of less success would be probable.

So not to defend Harden because he can suck it....but he hasnt really had the chance to do anything of meaning yet.

It is true, that had Kobe been drafted by Charlotte things would have been different. but Harden did have Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant and Serge Ibaka o his team in the finals and had he played like he did during the regular season, they might have won. He didn't.

 

IMO Harden choked and had you replaced him with any version of Kobe Bryant, the Thunder would have won, not the Heat.


Edited by DanishLakerFan, August 07, 2013 - 03:56 AM.


#99 Ham

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Posted August 07, 2013 - 08:17 AM



Nah Larry Brown had a perfect game plan to shut down the Shaq and Kobe connection. Was a brilliant idea, he cut off any cohesion between those two. The situations are incomparable as no built a gameplan towards Harden not getting the ball or not getting it to Westbrook or Durant nor were they one of the top 2 defensive teams of the last 30 years.

Yeah, he was the reason the Lakers didnt win four in a row IMO. Really smart. But if you wanna say anyone choked, let it be the system or the coach. PJ should've devised a better counter. That defense forced Kobe to take those tough shots. Whereas Shaq was able to easily torch Ben Wallace whenever he got the chance (triangle). Too dominant even with his bad conditioning. There's always other things like the amount of injuries that season though

Edited by Ham, August 07, 2013 - 08:20 AM.

Mike D'Antoni is GARBAGE.


#100 DanishLakerFan

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Posted August 07, 2013 - 08:32 AM

Kobe choked in 2004. I don't see how you can deny that. There were times when Shaq had position on his defender and Kobe would shoot contested jumpers instead of passing. Shaq averaged 26.6 pts on 63% shooting. Meanwhile, shooting contested jumpers over 2 guys got Kobe an outstanding 22.6 pts on 38% shooting. There were plenty of chances for Kobe to get Shaq the ball down low against Wallace but he chose otherwise. It was the most selfish I've ever seen Kobe play in my life. 

Kobe never choked. He played almost every single minute of that series and while he did try to do too much and as a result shot himself out of the game, he never choked. Choking is being passive, imo. Not missing shots. 

 

James Harden scoring in single digits in 3 games against the Heat, that's choking. 

Lebron James against the Mavs, not scoring in several 4th quarters, that's choking. 






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