MAJESTY: A few thoughts.
You state, "So you want to go prime vs prime now?" Actually, I compared the skills of Wilt and Kareem in their respective primes in my 2nd post on this thread. Your claim that each player had "distinctly different roles," defies history. Wilt's role for the Warriors/76ers and Kareem's role for the Bucks were the SAME. Each player was relied upon to be their team's top scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker.
It was not the same. The Bucks never required Kareem to have to shoot the ball 30+ times over the first 9 years of his career, we've gone through this. Kareem was relied on as a focal point but not to the extremes that Wilt was asked, a lot has to do with the times, a lot also has to do with the fact of the teams around them.
You cannot make Wilt's role when he got into the league THE SAME as Kareem's when he came into the league.
That's like saying that Jameer Nelson being the main offensive option on the Magic now is the exact same as Kobe being the main offensive option on the Lakers when Shaq wasn't there.
Two completely different things are asked from two completely different squads.
Wilt had to shoot the ball nearly 30+ times a game for the first 9 years of his career!
There was nothing Kareem was ever asked to do offensively on that level because he never had to be asked to do that. So you can't make it as black and white as that, as I already pointed that out to begin with in the last response to you. Moving onward.
The FACT (e.g., individual statistics) is that a prime Wilt did ALL of those things better than a prime Kareem. We all know the remarkable statistics put up by Wilt in the regular season in his first 7 seasons which includes averaging 39.6 points a game, but what is forgotten was how dominant he was in the post-season in that time span.
Again, this is attributed to the time Wilt played in, the fact he was the only actual rebounder on his team, and the fact that he needed to get 30 shots a game to keep them in it, and often if you listen to the reports back then, they would just feed him the ball and he'd stuff his stats even when losses weren't in question(the biggest example of this was his 100 point game) but that's beside the point.
Kareem was never asked to have to shoot the ball 33+ times a game, and the season he averaged 37.6 not 39.6 points a game he had to shoot the ball 32 times to accomplish that, this is 32 shots, and the year he averaged 50 he had to average 39.5 shots a game THAT'S ALMOST 40 SHOTS TAKEN PER GAME!!
Nowhere in Kareems career was he asked to do that much offensively, one because it was a different time period and secondly his team didn't need it of him. But you cannot use that and say Kareem COULDN'T have done it. If Kareem shot 40 shots a game what do you think he'd average? ask yourself that
In his first 7 seasons, he led his team to the playoffs 6 times. In 6 post-season appearances, Wilt averaged 32.8 points, 26.6 rebounds, and shot .505 from the field in a league that shot .426 in that time span. If you add his first championship season to the mix, Wilt averaged 30.4 points, 27.0 rebounds, 4.5 assists, and shot .515 from the field. No player in NBA history had a 33/26 and/or a 30/27 post-season series, yet Wilt averaged that over the course of 6/7 post-seasons.
Yep, Wilt was the only guy on his team and his feats were amazing, he trumps Kareem in rebounding, but trying to say that Kareem isn't as prolific a scorer just because of Wilts numbers is a bit of a misnomer. Again I pointed this out numerous times, no team was ever built around Kareem that required him to have to shoot the ball 40 times a night, and the game had changed by that point significantly where that kind of stuff didn't happen. Wilt was the perfect athlete at the perfect time in the perfect place to do what he did, and he is one of the greatest to ever do it.
But ask yourself. If Kareem had been around in Wilt's era(those first 9 years) I'd argue their numbers would have been virtually identical in that aspect. ESPECIALLY if Kareem had to take 40 shots a game. I'd stress to say he'd average more points in my opinion. So there's that as well.
You claim that Wilt didn't play against any 7 footers in his prime, but later backtracked on that claim by pointing out that Swede Halbrook was a 7 footer (e.g., Swede was 7'3"). Unfortunately, you forgot about Walter Dukes who was 7'0". In that same train of thought, you stated that I shouldn't "act like it isn't true." Well, acting isn't necessary when it is a documented FACT that Wilt played against TWO 7 footers in his prime. Including Wilt, 2 of the 9 starting centers during the 1961-1962 season were 7 feet tall. HOF center Walt Bellamy was 6'11", HOF center Bill Russell and Darrall Imhoff were 6'10", HOF center Clyde Lovelette was 6'9", 3 Time All-Star Johnny Kerr was 6'9", and 5 Time All-Star Wayne Embry was 6'8" and 270 pounds.
Ah yes, Walter Dukes, the guy who lead the NBA in foul outs..
You forget I mentioned that the reason that some of these guys weren't known and Wilt was is because of his talent.
BOTH of those 7 footers couldn't carry Wilt's jock and for good reason, Wilt was the athletic freak of his time WITH the skill to back it up and came along in the perfect era for that 9 year stretch.
Ah yes Walt Bellamy, we all know that story, how Wilt told a rookie Bellamy who was considered a phoenom averaging 30 ppg he wouldn't score in the first half and he didn't as Wilt swatted 8 or 9 of his first shots. That's a fantastic story.
There is no doubt that Wilt had everything especially in the era he came around in, he was the biggest and the strongest BUT he was also the most skilled in HIS ERA and that made a heck of a lot of difference. The problem was those like Russell understood the 'team concept' more than he did which is why he could get Russell statistically but never beat him in the finals.
But when you consider the fact that Russel had about 9 other hall of famers on his team and Wilts teams lost those games by an average of 3 or 4 points which means Wilt nearly beat 9 hall of famers by himself you realize how skilled he was and how much a prolific scorer he could be.
Thing is, the only person that matches him or even comes close in peoples minds is Kareem. If Kareem was around in Wilt's era, prime for prime, their numbers would be near identical and their matchups would have been as give and take as one would imagine. Can you name anyone else that you could say Wilt "held" defensively that still dropped 33 on him on average? You won't find many as defense was the LAST thing to leave Wilt.
You also continue to play psychic and comment on my alleged hidden motivations in posting on this topic. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on this matter, but they are nothing more than claims and repeating the same claims doesn't enhance their veracity. I make no mention in any of my posts that Wilt dominated Kareem in head to head match-ups. That position is your own personal concoction. What I did say is that Wilt outplayed Kareem in 7 of 11 post-season games. If one does the math correctly, Wilt won the head to head post-season battle 7-4. If your one-sided charges had any merit, I would have claimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in 9 or 10 of the 11 post-season match-ups.
No I pretty much showed you where Kareem outplayed him.
Wilt won the 71 matchups 3 games to 2 imo and Kareem won the 72 matchups 5 games to 1. Since you wanted to point out my missaying of a number just like you misquoted how many points Wilt averaged above. So I'll chalk it up as an oversight on your part.
So to me in post season matchups Kareem outplayed him 7-4.
YOU say that Wilt won it 7-4, I say Kareem won it 7-4. This is going to go on forever because I've already shown you why he outplayed him and the fact you tried to pass off THREE of those games as Wilt matchup wins before I put the actual numbers in front of you.
Which were games 3,5 and 6 I put in front of you in 72
- Chamberlain 7 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, 10 blocks, 1-3 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 15-37 FG/FGA L
- Chamberlain 12 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 2-3 FG/FGA - 4 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 28 pts, 16 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L
- Chamberlain 20 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, 9 blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA - 3 blocks and 2 steals against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 25 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 16-37 FG/FGA L
and the other one you assumed that Wilt outplayed Kareem was the game 1 of 1971 where it was this
Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W
Obviously I feel Kareem won all 4 of these matchups BUT I gave you game 6 in 72 to make it 5-1 in 72.
We're obviously never going to agree on their matchups here as arguments have been made both ways by the both of us and rehashed and is getting us nowhere.
Speaking of post-season match-ups, you state that Wilt outplayed Kareem in 3 of the 5 games in the 1971 WCF, yet cannot contain your frustration with my claim that Wilt outplayed in 4 of the 5 games. Huh? Sounds like we're almost on the same page on this issue, yet you use Game 4 of the series as some sort of rebuttal. This is quite bizarre when you consider the FACT that I agree that this is the one game in that series where Kareem outplayed Wilt. In addition, you use Game 1 as another example of how I'm wrong about my assessment of this series.
Correct. WE agree on the one game in 71 that Kareem won. What we do NOT agree on is game 1.
I guess you didn't take a gander at the far right end of the stat line which reads, Wilt 8 blocked shots and Kareem 1 blocked shot. I know. I know. According to your logic, reporters who covered the games don't know squat, but when you score 22 points, grab 20 rebounds, and block 8 shots, you've played a fantastic all around game. At best, Kareem and Wilt fought to a standstill in Game 1, but I'm a sucker for the musings of those who were actually present at the game.
Fantastic all around game yet I think Kareem had a better one.
Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
is better than
Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W
And I disagree with you. We'll just have to disagree here.
Finally, you state that Kareem outplayed Wilt 4 games to 1 in the 1972 WCF. Actually, this series went 6 games, not 5. IMO, your assessments of the games lack context, but when you ignore the reports of those who covered the games... again, when you go game by game, it is clear that Wilt dominated Kareem in the 4th quarter of Games 3, 5, and 6. This dominance led to 3 of the 4 Laker wins. The Lakers won game 3 by 3 points and the main reason was that Wilt held Kareem scoreless for the last 11 minutes of the contest. In Game 6, the Lakers were down by 10 points in the 4th quarter, yet Wilt's "ball-busting" performance down the stretch resulted in a 4 point victory. The individual stat lines don't provide the proper perspective on why the Lakers defeated the Bucks in Games 3, 5, and 6.
misstype, just like when you stated Wilt averaged 39.6 when it was actually 37.6. Not gonna get on about that because everything else in that argument shows why.
And like I said the one thing you keep forgetting is how the Bucks offense basically became pretty obvious and one sided once Robertson was gone. Which is something you don't want to talk about.
You mention how we need to "take into account what was asked of the players, the roles etc' when considering what the players didn't have. Basically whenever Oscar was able to be any bit of himself the Bucks blew out the Lakers that year, Kareem as well, because their offense didn't become predictable.
Point is, when Oscar was out of it, the offense basically became about Kareem forcing up shots which was not his thing, at that point the offense became obvious. AND IF you are dealing with a defender like Wilt, if you're only gonna go one way he knows what it's going to be as it gives him nothing to guess to and when he has nothing to guess to he can hold you. The fact that Wilt the great defender knew basically from game 1 onward what Kareem was going to do when Oscar wasn't himself and Kareem still averaged 33 on him each night is remarkable and shouldn't be discredited.
There's a reason why Kareem scored a bulk of his 37 in game 6 on top of Wilts head in the first half at over 50% shooting that Robertson played and then suddenly when he had to force up shots Wilt was able to hold him, because Oscar didn't play the 2nd half. The offense became stagnant and everything basically had to become about Kareem forcing up shots. If Oscar makes that 2nd half and the offense doesn't have to change to the obvious, the series likely goes 7 and then who knows. That is why a lot of Milwaukee fans hold a sour taste in their mouth over it as Oscar not only was able to hold Jerry West but him and Kareem seemed to be the answer for what the Lakers threw out. Each game was guessed by an average of about 2 or points aside from the 2 blowouts by the Bucks and one by the Lakers. I give Wilt credit for his defensive efforts in them, however when Oscar could no longer go, what the offense was going to be became obvious if Wilt hadn't been able to scout that he wouldn't have been such the great defender he was.
So eventhough Wilt knew from game 1 onward what was going to happen and what the offense would become(I am guessing this because I think Wilt was a brilliant defender and scouter and knew pretty much once Oscar was out of it for the most part that all offense would be forced through Kareem), and knew precisely how to play Kareem, Kareem still dropped 33 on him on average. I don't care who you are but dropping 33 ppg on Wilt Chamberlain in the playoffs when he knows for 5 of the 6 games what the offense is gonna be is astounding.
And not to be glanced over.
The simple fact is that you feel that Kareem was a better player than Wilt. I disagree, but their match-up is certainly fodder for debate. That's what happens when you compare 2 of the 5 greatest players in NBA history.
That is something I agree with. Agree to disagree.
All-time I go with Kareem over Wilt too, because of his longevity as well as my own personal opinions I've already shared here. But that's another debate entirely.
Edited by Majesty, October 05, 2013 - 07:35 AM.