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Nelly speaks on Kobe, Howard (First Take)


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#21 Villane

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Posted July 16, 2013 - 10:24 PM

It's this simple yo. Why is this even a post?

 

Kobe played with centers before who could actually take criticism and make them better. He tried to do that with Dwight. And, Dwight would rather make excuses and start drama.



#22 zombeef

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Posted July 16, 2013 - 10:27 PM

Also, Shaq has been quite frank with the media his entire career, so why would he lie now? You can say he's playing politics, but I doubt the man ever cared about all that noise. 



#23 last stand 2.0

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Posted July 16, 2013 - 10:28 PM

nelly?

 

is it 2002?


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#24 fozi

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Posted July 16, 2013 - 10:40 PM

It doesnt matter if someone wants to play with you or not,  the important thing is the results. rings are the answer. Last time i checked, Kobe has five rings in 7 finals..

 

 

Cant believe i wasted 15minutes on useless material like that, let alone Nelly not letting anyone  make a full sentence. 


Edited by fozi, July 17, 2013 - 09:50 PM.


#25 Ace

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Posted July 16, 2013 - 11:38 PM

As annoying as Nelly was, he had very good points on Kobe especially on his leadership.


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#26 RobBlake

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Posted July 16, 2013 - 11:52 PM

As annoying as Nelly was, he had very good points on Kobe especially on his leadership.

kobe's leadership shouldn't be questioned. He's a leader and 5x decorated champion 


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#27 zombeef

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 12:02 AM

 I'm cool with people questioning Kobe's leadership, but it being questioned by Nelly seems surreal. 



#28 pkflyers

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 12:13 AM

As annoying as Nelly was, he had very good points on Kobe especially on his leadership.





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#29 415

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 12:27 AM


Also, Shaq has been quite frank with the media his entire career, so why would he lie now? You can say he's playing politics, but I doubt the man ever cared about all that noise.


Because hes on tv now not playing ball so its water under the bridge I suppose..why is he going to talk bad about kobe now


Also, Shaq has been quite frank with the media his entire career, so why would he lie now? You can say he's playing politics, but I doubt the man ever cared about all that noise.


Because hes on tv now not playing ball so its water under the bridge I suppose..why is he going to talk bad about kobe now it would be pointless but its in wording from themselves and others around them that they really didnt like each other for a while and I dnt think there good friends with each other

#30 zombeef

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 12:41 AM

Like I said, your speculations versus his words. You're only trying to put together some sparse evidence against Kobe in defense of Nelly, who in turn is defending Dwight. 

 

Now read that again. Do you realize how crazy that sounds? You would put Kobe's name through mud to give Nelly some validation? 

 

Because hes on tv now not playing ball so its water under the bridge I suppose..why is he going to talk bad about kobe now
Because hes on tv now not playing ball so its water under the bridge I suppose..why is he going to talk bad about kobe now it would be pointless but its in wording from themselves and others around them that they really didnt like each other for a while and I dnt think there good friends with each other



#31 zombeef

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 12:42 AM

In all seriousness, are you Nelly? 



#32 Ace

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 12:43 AM

kobe's leadership shouldn't be questioned. He's a leader and 5x decorated champion 

 

With due respect, his first 3 rings was him being the gifted/talented immature boy wonder who was the second best player on that team. not as the leader. People confuse leadership skills with being the best baller in the game. 

 

Shaq hated him, Bynum even mentioned Kobe "stunted" his growth. D12 mentioned it was tough playing with Kobe and now he's gone. And as crappy as smush was, he called kobe a bad leader and a teammate. And this is just to name a few. Did anybody say that about Magic? Or even Lebron? (and please don't counter with the 5>2 ring count) In no way am I questioning Kobe's dedication, game, passion, spirit, etc. I just believe that he could have been a better leader thats all.

 

Phil Jackson: 

 

“One of the biggest differences between the two stars from my perspective was Michael’s superior skills as a leader,” Jackson said. “Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he’d yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had.”


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#33 Majesty

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 01:54 AM

With due respect, his first 3 rings was him being the gifted/talented immature boy wonder who was the second best player on that team. not as the leader. People confuse leadership skills with being the best baller in the game. 

 

Shaq hated him, Bynum even mentioned Kobe "stunted" his growth. D12 mentioned it was tough playing with Kobe and now he's gone. And as crappy as smush was, he called kobe a bad leader and a teammate. And this is just to name a few. Did anybody say that about Magic? Or even Lebron? (and please don't counter with the 5>2 ring count) In no way am I questioning Kobe's dedication, game, passion, spirit, etc. I just believe that he could have been a better leader thats all.

 

Phil Jackson: 

 

“One of the biggest differences between the two stars from my perspective was Michael’s superior skills as a leader,” Jackson said. “Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he’d yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had.”



Actually the 2nd ring he had with Shaq one could argue it was Kobe's team by that point.  By the 3rd ring it was DEFINITELY Kobe's team.  

let's not forget it was also Kobe that helped us beat San Antonio and Indiana when Shaq had fouled out and wasn't there and even in the first year the only game Indiana beat us in was the game Kobe didn't play. 

I think 4 of those 5 rings were when Kobe was leader of the team.  The first time around it was definitely Shaq's but Kobe was knocking on the door.  Especially when after that first year Shaq started getting lazy after winning his first ring and that started the spark that Kobe's problems with Shaq began.  Work ethic.   Phil said Kobe never took a second off between winning that first championship and training camp.  Whereas he said he told Shaq to take some time off and he'd see him around September etc and he'd expected Shaq to show up at the beginning of September but he showed up at the end :laughing:

Also that quote by Phil has been retorted as well because it was an unfair judgement as Michael had 4 years of college experience under Dean Smith whereas Kobe came out of high school and learned on the go.   By the time that 2nd ring rolled around it was Kobe's team.   In my opinion anyway.



And Bynum said Kobe stunted his growth because he meant playing with a guy like Kobe makes it easier and he can do so much that he didn't really need to get the ball as often or advance his game.

it was more of a compliment than an insult and Bynum looking at what it will be like to have a team of his own.  Kobe "stunting" his growth had to do with how much easier Kobe made it for him(Bynum) and was taken out of context. 

And did you seriously just quote Smush?  The guy that disrespected Phil Jackson and said he wanted Phil to change from the triangle to something he wanted?  The guy who said he was better than the triangle?  The guy that Kobe took time out to try to teach the triangle and didn't listen?  The guy that refused to pass to Kobe in the playoffs because he was mad at him? 

Please don't cite smush freaking parker on what a good judge of leadership is. Thank you. 

 

So you have 3 out of context quotes and one skilless noob's. 

What about what Gasol says?  What about what everyone on the Olympic team in 2008 and 2012 said?  What about what Ariza, Shannon Brown, Derek Fisher have said?   And what Michael Jordan has said?  What about Lamar Odom who gave the entire credit of his growth as a player to Kobe Bryant pushing him? What about what Sasha and Jordan Farmar say?   You know.. the guys that were actually able to accept Kobe's challenge and help the team win a championship? 

I hold their opinions a lot higher than Smush Parker.   the guy who disrespected Phil as well as Kobe when he tried to teach him the triangle because he thought he knew everything. 

Kobe's leadership lead to 5 championships.  His methods work if you're tough enough to deal with them, and if you aren't tough enough you are off the team and fade into oblivion while your NBA career goes nowhere and you wind up in china or elsewhere.

If it wasn't for Kobe Bryant force feeding Smush Parker he'd have never stayed in this league as long as he has.

There's a reason their growth "Stops" when they leave the Lakers and it's usually as a Laker that they play at their highest and most consistent level.  There is a reason for that and it ain't a coincidence.   my two cents anyway

 

 

Cliff Notes for Ham: 
I think you're wrong.


Edited by Majesty, July 17, 2013 - 01:58 AM.

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#34 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 03:48 AM

With due respect, his first 3 rings was him being the gifted/talented immature boy wonder who was the second best player on that team. not as the leader. People confuse leadership skills with being the best baller in the game. 

 

Shaq hated him, Bynum even mentioned Kobe "stunted" his growth. D12 mentioned it was tough playing with Kobe and now he's gone. And as crappy as smush was, he called kobe a bad leader and a teammate. And this is just to name a few. Did anybody say that about Magic? Or even Lebron? (and please don't counter with the 5>2 ring count) In no way am I questioning Kobe's dedication, game, passion, spirit, etc. I just believe that he could have been a better leader thats all.

 

Phil Jackson: 

 

“One of the biggest differences between the two stars from my perspective was Michael’s superior skills as a leader,” Jackson said. “Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he’d yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had.”

 

For the very first title Shaq was the man, but in the subsequent two Finals runs, Kobe was every bit as important as Shaq. He wasn't the 2nd best player on the team at that point, he and Shaq were 1A and 1B. Shaq even went as far as saying that Kobe was the best player in the league during the '01-02 season. His leadership skills weren't fine-tuned by then, as they are nowadays, but that's because he was only 23 by the time they won their third straight title. I don't expect a player that young to be able to get a team full of veterans to fall into line behind him.

 

Shaq hated Kobe because he wouldn't let him coast and tried pushing him all along the way. Kobe is a competitor and has put in tremendous work to garner all the success he's had, whereas Shaq had been prone to goofing off and taking it easy for like 75% of his entire career. If Shaq had had anywhere near the focus of a Kobe or MJ, he could have easily racked up 7-8 championships as a 1st option during the prime of his career. There was no one who could contain him. However, he only managed to reach that pinnacle for 3 years in his career, ultimately losing interest come the '02-03 season where he thought he could just coast his way to another ring. That's when things really went downhill between him and Kobe. He just never had that level of focus or determination and didn't want to put in all the work.

 

Kobe never stunted Bynum's growth, that's some of the worst garbage I've ever read. Bynum became an All-Star and landed himself a big fat paycheck due to the amount of defensive attention that Kobe had diverted away from him allowing him to flourish into his own player. We saw just how good Bynum would be as a first option with the mess of a system we ran into a brick wall versus the Thunder in the 2nd round of the '11-12 postseason. He clearly wasn't first option material and we paid for it by losing due to the horrid system we were running. Bynum's injuries were what stunted his growth as a player, not the presence of Kobe Bryant.

 

And really, Smush Parker? Let's not even get started on that. This is the same guy who had his best years playing alongside Kobe and couldn't lock down an NBA job before or after that stretch.

 

No one said that about Magic because they weren't losing as much due to having one of the most stacked teams of all-time. When the going is good, there isn't going to be much finger pointing or butting of heads. But let's not also forget the fact that while Magic won 5 titles, he was also on the losing end 4 other times. He didn't catch too much flak for it throughout his career due to winning 2 early in his career (thus staying ahead the whole time in the W/L columns), but he did end up losing 4 of his last 7 Finals appearances. LeBron being such a fun and easygoing teammate led to Cleveland never getting to the Finals in their best years ('08-10) and to him having an 0-2 record in the Finals before he got serious and stopped screwing around. Since then, he's won 2 in a row and played some of the best basketball the league has ever seen.

 

Kobe's method of leadership, like Jordan's before him, is leading by example with his play on the court. It has led to 7 Finals appearances and 5 titles in a 17 year career. They didn't pat their teammates on the back and coddle them (like Dwight seemed to expect during his brief time here). They were borderline sociopaths when it came to winning, it was all that mattered at the end. That's not going to make a ton of friends along the way. They DEMANDED the best from their teammates and those who responded enjoyed the best success of their careers. Due to their high demand for perfection and relentless desire to win, they've been the two most successful players in the modern era of basketball. That's not by mere coincidence.

 

And of course Phil Jackson would make that assertion, he's completely right. But Michael Jordan was definitely not loved by his teammates either. He earned their respect by displaying his amazing talent and by downright intimidating them. He was a dick, plain and simple. You don't hear teammates or players who went head-to-head versus MJ praise his character or his personality. Why would they? He wasn't a nice person at all. They always mention his focus and determination, how desperately he always wanted to win. You'll hear the same things about Kobe, though he's not anywhere near as big an asshole as Jordan was. 

 

Michael was also 26 by the time Phil Jackson began coaching in Chicago, 27 at the time of the first championship. Of course he'd be more developed as a leader by then, just like Kobe was during our '08-10 back-to-back-to-back runs to the Finals. It's a matter of age and experience at that point, and Kobe has been very good ever since that point.



#35 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 03:51 AM

I also see that Majesty responded with most of the same stuff right before my reply. Totally didn't see that response, had this thread open on my computer for like two hours and never got to it till now :laughing:



#36 Majesty

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 04:07 AM

I also see that Majesty responded with most of the same stuff right before my reply. Totally didn't see that response, had this thread open on my computer for like two hours and never got to it till now :laughing:


Well you and I together pretty much just wrote the War and Peace version on why Kobe's leadership works. 

Pretty much could be stickied with it's very own thread titled "To those who question Kobe's leadership read here" now :bounce:  

+2!


Edited by Majesty, July 17, 2013 - 04:07 AM.

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#37 Ace

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 05:00 AM



Actually the 2nd ring he had with Shaq one could argue it was Kobe's team by that point.  By the 3rd ring it was DEFINITELY Kobe's team.  

let's not forget it was also Kobe that helped us beat San Antonio and Indiana when Shaq had fouled out and wasn't there and even in the first year the only game Indiana beat us in was the game Kobe didn't play. 

I think 4 of those 5 rings were when Kobe was leader of the team.  The first time around it was definitely Shaq's but Kobe was knocking on the door.  Especially when after that first year Shaq started getting lazy after winning his first ring and that started the spark that Kobe's problems with Shaq began.  Work ethic.   Phil said Kobe never took a second off between winning that first championship and training camp.  Whereas he said he told Shaq to take some time off and he'd see him around September etc and he'd expected Shaq to show up at the beginning of September but he showed up at the end :laughing:

Also that quote by Phil has been retorted as well because it was an unfair judgement as Michael had 4 years of college experience under Dean Smith whereas Kobe came out of high school and learned on the go.   By the time that 2nd ring rolled around it was Kobe's team.   In my opinion anyway.



And Bynum said Kobe stunted his growth because he meant playing with a guy like Kobe makes it easier and he can do so much that he didn't really need to get the ball as often or advance his game.

it was more of a compliment than an insult and Bynum looking at what it will be like to have a team of his own.  Kobe "stunting" his growth had to do with how much easier Kobe made it for him(Bynum) and was taken out of context. 

And did you seriously just quote Smush?  The guy that disrespected Phil Jackson and said he wanted Phil to change from the triangle to something he wanted?  The guy who said he was better than the triangle?  The guy that Kobe took time out to try to teach the triangle and didn't listen?  The guy that refused to pass to Kobe in the playoffs because he was mad at him? 

Please don't cite smush freaking parker on what a good judge of leadership is. Thank you. 

 

So you have 3 out of context quotes and one skilless noob's. 

What about what Gasol says?  What about what everyone on the Olympic team in 2008 and 2012 said?  What about what Ariza, Shannon Brown, Derek Fisher have said?   And what Michael Jordan has said?  What about Lamar Odom who gave the entire credit of his growth as a player to Kobe Bryant pushing him? What about what Sasha and Jordan Farmar say?   You know.. the guys that were actually able to accept Kobe's challenge and help the team win a championship? 

I hold their opinions a lot higher than Smush Parker.   the guy who disrespected Phil as well as Kobe when he tried to teach him the triangle because he thought he knew everything. 

Kobe's leadership lead to 5 championships.  His methods work if you're tough enough to deal with them, and if you aren't tough enough you are off the team and fade into oblivion while your NBA career goes nowhere and you wind up in china or elsewhere.

If it wasn't for Kobe Bryant force feeding Smush Parker he'd have never stayed in this league as long as he has.

There's a reason their growth "Stops" when they leave the Lakers and it's usually as a Laker that they play at their highest and most consistent level.  There is a reason for that and it ain't a coincidence.   my two cents anyway

 

Let me start of by saying I'm a Laker fan first and a kobe fan next. Now let me just reply on a couple of things you mentioned: 

 

1. "Actually the 2nd ring he had with Shaq one could argue it was Kobe's team by that point.  By the 3rd ring it was DEFINITELY Kobe's team. "

"I think 4 of those 5 rings were when Kobe was leader of the team."I disagree, first 3 (possibly 4 if it wasn't for kobe hero balling against the pisons) was Shaq. And just to add Malone and Payton came to the Lakers because Shaq recruited them.  Kobe was coming into his own but it was still Shaq though, in my opinion at least.

2. "it was more of a compliment than an insult and Bynum looking at what it will be like to have a team of his own.  Kobe "stunting" his growth had to do with how much easier Kobe made it for him(Bynum) and was taken out of context." -  I see your point. 

3. "And did you seriously just quote Smush?  The guy that disrespected Phil Jackson and said he wanted Phil to change from the triangle to something he wanted?  The guy who said he was better than the triangle?  The guy that Kobe took time out to try to teach the triangle and didn't listen?  The guy that refused to pass to Kobe in the playoffs because he was mad at him? " -  Disrespected Phil Jackson, And Kobe didn't? Fortunately for Kobe he is talented as [expletive] so he backed it up.

4. "I hold their opinions a lot higher than Smush Parker.   the guy who disrespected Phil as well as Kobe when he tried to teach him the triangle because he thought he knew everything. " - Sounds alot like Kobe. Have you read The Last Season by Phil Jackson? Some excerpts:

“Earlier this week at El Segundo there was an incident at practice.  On the way to the court, I asked Kobe, still nursing a sore shoulder, if he was up to doing a little running.  Sure, he responded, as soon as he finished his treatment.  Almost an hour went by, and there was no Kobe sighting.  Finally, with an ice pack on his shoulder, he took a seat on the sideline.  It began to dawn on me that contrary to what he had told me, Kobe had no intention of running.  After practice I followed Kobe to the training room, asking him why he lied to me.  He was being sarcastic, he said.  Wrong answer.  I told him that he needed to treat me with respect, not sarcasm.  I turned and walked away, heading to the coaches’ locker room.  A minute later I heard him cursing in the training room in front of the players, though I couldn’t make out the exact words….Now I was the one who was angry.  I went upstairs to see Mitch in his office.  Wasting no time, I went off on a tirade about the need to deal Kobe before the trading deadline in mid-February.  “I won’t coach this team next year if he is still here,” I said emphatically.  “He won’t listen to anyone.  I’ve had it with this kid.”  My monologue-Mitch barely said a word at first-reminded me of similar eruption in the middle of my first year when I presented what I thought was a very logical argument for trading Kobe at that time.  “Everyone says what a mature person this kid is,” I said.  “He’s not mature at all.”  The deal I had in mind was Kobe to Phoenix for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion.”

 

“Are you feeling like you’re going to come back next year?” Jeanie asked me.  “Well, not if Kobe Bryant is on this team next year,” I told her.  “He’s too complex a person.  I don’t need this.”

 

“Finally it was Kobe’s turn.  “You know how much I hate this [expletive]g offense,” Kobe said.

 

 

5. "Kobe's leadership lead to 5 championships.  His methods work if you're tough enough to deal with them, and if you aren't tough enough you are off the team and fade into oblivion while your NBA career goes nowhere and you wind up in china or elsewhere." - Kobe's leadership "method" lead to 2 rings. Kobe probably lead the team in scoring at most on the first 3 rings but he wasn't the undisputed leader so to speak, Shaq was - and Shaq arguably couldn't have won the 3-peat without Kobe but he was the leader of THAT Laker squad, in my opinion. Kobe even said after losing to the pistons "I'm tired of being a sidekick".

 

I never said Kobe's leadership didn't work as a matter of fact I'm thankful for the passion he brings to the court. He is one of my idols and inspires me to work harder in whatever endeavour I'm pursuing. I'm just saying like everything else in life it CAN BE BETTER, Nelly said nobody wants to play with Kobe and now these guys. I'm not saying they have to like kobe and sing Kumbaya with him. But to not want to play with a 5 time champion? 

 

 


Edited by Ace, July 17, 2013 - 05:00 AM.

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#38 Majesty

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 05:49 AM

Let me start of by saying I'm a Laker fan first and a kobe fan next. Now let me just reply on a couple of things you mentioned: 

 

1. "Actually the 2nd ring he had with Shaq one could argue it was Kobe's team by that point.  By the 3rd ring it was DEFINITELY Kobe's team. "

"I think 4 of those 5 rings were when Kobe was leader of the team."I disagree, first 3 (possibly 4 if it wasn't for kobe hero balling against the pisons) was Shaq. And just to add Malone and Payton came to the Lakers because Shaq recruited them.  Kobe was coming into his own but it was still Shaq though, in my opinion at least.


Now I see where your perspective is.  You blame Kobe for them not winning their 4th title and blame it on Kobe's hero ball rather than blaming it on Shaq not being in shape and Larry Brown focusing primarily on Kobe not getting the ball to Shaq which is how Shaq operated in the triangle.

Shaq out and out admitted he had no idea about the triangle, and it was Kobe's ability to maneuver it to get him the looks he got.

Larry Brown had figured this out, and once he cut off Kobe from being able to pass to Shaq, Shaq was lost.  So Shaq admitting years later what the actual case is doesn't surprise me.   But your perspective of "IF it wasn't for Kobe's ball hogging we'd have won that 4th ring"  makes it seem to me that you're a Kobe blamist.  Makes it seem like you'd rather try to blame Kobe for the team losing and ignore the other factors.      And you're also likely one of the types of people that think if Kobe "just passed to his teammates more on off nights" that the team would be much more successful.      That's just how it seems with statements like that, no offense.

We didn't lose that series against Detroit because of Kobe's "hero ball" we lost it because as L.A.K.E.R. said, Shaq was uninterested in getting in shape and Larry Brown had figured out that if he cut off Kobe from feeding the ball to Shaq that Shaq wouldn't know what to do, and before when the plays would break Shaq would be so much bigger and stronger than everyone that he could just score off broken plays.  But out of shape and uninterested in getting better it had caught up to him and BEN WALLACE was just as strong if not stronger than him at that point because of it.

Don't believe me?  When Mitch let Shaq go he went to Miami and lost 50 pounds... and NOBODY talked about it.  Nobody was willing to say "Well that proves what Kobe has been saying about Shaq slacking and not getting in shape."  But nobody does, and apparently you missed that too. 
 

 

 

3. "And did you seriously just quote Smush?  The guy that disrespected Phil Jackson and said he wanted Phil to change from the triangle to something he wanted?  The guy who said he was better than the triangle?  The guy that Kobe took time out to try to teach the triangle and didn't listen?  The guy that refused to pass to Kobe in the playoffs because he was mad at him? " -  Disrespected Phil Jackson, And Kobe didn't? Fortunately for Kobe he is talented as [expletive] so he backed it up.
 


There is a difference between Kobe Bryant who is the franchise player that handcuffed his game for 4 years in that offense just so the team could be successful and a guy in Smush who has proven nothing and never even bought in. 

Kobe Bryant may have told Phil initially he couldn't stand the offense anymore but what did he do?  He swallowed his pride and played in that offense so the team could win championships and he mastered the triangle JUST so he could find Shaq in it and make life easier for him allowing him to be dominant in a much easier way than if he did what Smush did and not learn it at all and ignore everything Phil did.   Why do you think Shaq says if you have Kobe Bryant on your team he can make ANY system work for you when he didn't buy into Dwight Howard's "system" excuse.

See the difference?
 

 

4. "I hold their opinions a lot higher than Smush Parker.   the guy who disrespected Phil as well as Kobe when he tried to teach him the triangle because he thought he knew everything. " - Sounds alot like Kobe. Have you read The Last Season by Phil Jackson? Some excerpts:

“Earlier this week at El Segundo there was an incident at practice.  On the way to the court, I asked Kobe, still nursing a sore shoulder, if he was up to doing a little running.  Sure, he responded, as soon as he finished his treatment.  Almost an hour went by, and there was no Kobe sighting.  Finally, with an ice pack on his shoulder, he took a seat on the sideline.  It began to dawn on me that contrary to what he had told me, Kobe had no intention of running.  After practice I followed Kobe to the training room, asking him why he lied to me.  He was being sarcastic, he said.  Wrong answer.  I told him that he needed to treat me with respect, not sarcasm.  I turned and walked away, heading to the coaches’ locker room.  A minute later I heard him cursing in the training room in front of the players, though I couldn’t make out the exact words….Now I was the one who was angry.  I went upstairs to see Mitch in his office.  Wasting no time, I went off on a tirade about the need to deal Kobe before the trading deadline in mid-February.  “I won’t coach this team next year if he is still here,” I said emphatically.  “He won’t listen to anyone.  I’ve had it with this kid.”  My monologue-Mitch barely said a word at first-reminded me of similar eruption in the middle of my first year when I presented what I thought was a very logical argument for trading Kobe at that time.  “Everyone says what a mature person this kid is,” I said.  “He’s not mature at all.”  The deal I had in mind was Kobe to Phoenix for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion.”

 

“Are you feeling like you’re going to come back next year?” Jeanie asked me.  “Well, not if Kobe Bryant is on this team next year,” I told her.  “He’s too complex a person.  I don’t need this.”

 

“Finally it was Kobe’s turn.  “You know how much I hate this [expletive]g offense,” Kobe said.



Again that is why Phil said what he said about Kobe when he was 22 and still learning how to lead.    And despite this blow up and argument, Kobe sold out to buy into Phil's system and sacrifice his stats which won them championships.  Again, different from Smush who just ignored it.    Kobe did it for the good of the team and he TRUSTED Phil enough to do it.  That speaks volumes especially when you quote that entire blow up.  It makes the fact that Kobe sold out and sacrificed stats to trust Phil even MORE of a big deal and showing how willing he was to compromise if it meant winning a championship.

Compare that to Smush who was fine with losing as long as he got even with Kobe... see what I mean? 

Kobe would tell Phil "I hate this offense" and then go master it and win championships with it and make it easier on his teammates with it. 

Smush said "I'm better than this offense."  and never tried to learn it and went out there to do his own thing.

And again Jordan had 4 years of college along with 8 years leading a team before Phil even got there.    Kobe came out of high school, rode the bench for his first two years and was semi leading that team with Shaq for what... 2? 

Again as L.A.K.E.R. said, Kobe had mastered being a leader by the time the 08-09 season rolled around and we went to 3 straight finals, he'd suffered as much as he had to suffer and learned what he had to learn during Phil's second stint and in reality those were the YEARS he actually ran a team.   From the 2nd ring till the 4th ring was a time span of about 5 or 6 years.   Compare it to Jordan who had 4 years of college and 8 years running a team to become the leader he became when Phil got there and Kobe's transition doesn't seem so bad does it?   You also can't compare the leader Kobe was at 22 to the Leader he was at 30 or the leader he is now.    They are not the same and its irrelevant to your current argument that Kobe needs leadership lessons NOW.  Back when he was 22?  Probably.  But not right now at 34.  So your entire quote there is irrelevant to the present time and it wasn't a very good comparison to what Smush did anyway. 
 

 

5. "Kobe's leadership lead to 5 championships.  His methods work if you're tough enough to deal with them, and if you aren't tough enough you are off the team and fade into oblivion while your NBA career goes nowhere and you wind up in china or elsewhere." - Kobe's leadership "method" lead to 2 rings. Kobe probably lead the team in scoring at most on the first 3 rings but he wasn't the undisputed leader so to speak, Shaq was - and Shaq arguably couldn't have won the 3-peat without Kobe but he was the leader of THAT Laker squad, in my opinion. Kobe even said after losing to the pistons "I'm tired of being a sidekick".

 

I never said Kobe's leadership didn't work as a matter of fact I'm thankful for the passion he brings to the court. He is one of my idols and inspires me to work harder in whatever endeavour I'm pursuing. I'm just saying like everything else in life it CAN BE BETTER, Nelly said nobody wants to play with Kobe and now these guys. I'm not saying they have to like kobe and sing Kumbaya with him. But to not want to play with a 5 time champion? 

 

 

 

 

No, it lead to 4 Championships.   Because no matter what happened in practice Kobe still learned and mastered the triangle so Shaq would be able to navigate it.  He sacrifices all of his stats so that the team could be successful and win.   He drove a hard bargain and despite the blow ups he had with Phil about the offense at the end of the day who was the guy initiating everything and doing everything to make the triangle work for everyone else because he was the catalyst and the ball handler in that system?      Kobe Bryant.  If he wanted to he could have not done a darn thing that Phil asked and played the entire season stat chasing and losing championship opportunity after championship opportunity.  

Even in his 2nd year when Kobe was pissed at Shaq for not coming to camp in shape and decided to try to put the team on his back which caused Shaq to pout and make his "if the dog aint mean the house don't get guarded" quote. 

Kobe was fighting to TAKE the team from Shaq, and Shaq didn't like it. 

Going so hard eventually cost Kobe though as he injured himself and Shaq played himself back into shape.  What happened when Kobe came back?  He went back to facilitating mode and initiating everything and we finished the season strong and then he became the guy Shaq called the best player in the league during the playoffs.    It was Kobe's team by that 2nd ring, and even Shaq acknowledged it. 

Shaq never "lead" the team after the first ring.   Kobe took those reigns and that's why Shaq had a problem.    Kobe had worked his butt off to come back stronger the next year and Shaq took the entire off-season off.  So come time for training camp Kobe came prepped to take the franchise and BE the franchise and Shaq wasn't ready to deal with that and Kobe demanded more from Shaq and Shaq wanted to stay the "big brother" and Kobe the "little brother" but Little brother started working harder than big brother and talking to Big brother as if he was the boss now.  

And for all intents and purposes, Kobe was.

If it wasn't for Kobe's mastery of the triangle and being able to navigate it, Shaq wouldn't have gotten all the shots and successes he did. 

Once Larry Brown figured that out and cut off the Kobe and Shaq connection what happened?  Shaq got outplayed by Ben Wallace.

Enough said.



I honestly don't think you're giving Kobe enough credit and trying to compare Kobe's leadership at 22 as evidence he needs to work on it NOW over 10 years later is a silly argument and comparison imo.

His leadership despite it's rocky roads which he learned and grew from, lead to 4 rings.   My two cents.


Edited by Majesty, July 17, 2013 - 05:58 AM.

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#39 evil Monkey

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 06:40 AM

 Those are your speculations. I'd be more inclined to believe Shaq when he says that he's squashed the beef with Kobe than someone else who "thinks" there's a deeper underlining issue between the two. These speculations don't really hold much water against actual quotes from the big guy. 

 

 Also, ESPN panel should invite both Nelly and Cube for a debate. That would get crazy ratings. 

 

And people would turn it off in 2 minutes because the viewers don't want to hear Nelly shouting over Cube; he's a terrible debater with some polarizing opinions.


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#40 evil Monkey

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Posted July 17, 2013 - 06:53 AM


Now I see where your perspective is.  You blame Kobe for them not winning their 4th title and blame it on Kobe's hero ball rather than blaming it on Shaq not being in shape and Larry Brown focusing primarily on Kobe not getting the ball to Shaq which is how Shaq operated in the triangle.

Shaq out and out admitted he had no idea about the triangle, and it was Kobe's ability to maneuver it to get him the looks he got.

Larry Brown had figured this out, and once he cut off Kobe from being able to pass to Shaq, Shaq was lost.  So Shaq admitting years later what the actual case is doesn't surprise me.   But your perspective of "IF it wasn't for Kobe's ball hogging we'd have won that 4th ring"  makes it seem to me that you're a Kobe blamist.  Makes it seem like you'd rather try to blame Kobe for the team losing and ignore the other factors.      And you're also likely one of the types of people that think if Kobe "just passed to his teammates more on off nights" that the team would be much more successful.      That's just how it seems with statements like that, no offense.

We didn't lose that series against Detroit because of Kobe's "hero ball" we lost it because as L.A.K.E.R. said, Shaq was uninterested in getting in shape and Larry Brown had figured out that if he cut off Kobe from feeding the ball to Shaq that Shaq wouldn't know what to do, and before when the plays would break Shaq would be so much bigger and stronger than everyone that he could just score off broken plays.  But out of shape and uninterested in getting better it had caught up to him and BEN WALLACE was just as strong if not stronger than him at that point because of it.

Don't believe me?  When Mitch let Shaq go he went to Miami and lost 50 pounds... and NOBODY talked about it.  Nobody was willing to say "Well that proves what Kobe has been saying about Shaq slacking and not getting in shape."  But nobody does, and apparently you missed that too. 
 

 

 


There is a difference between Kobe Bryant who is the franchise player that handcuffed his game for 4 years in that offense just so the team could be successful and a guy in Smush who has proven nothing and never even bought in. 

Kobe Bryant may have told Phil initially he couldn't stand the offense anymore but what did he do?  He swallowed his pride and played in that offense so the team could win championships and he mastered the triangle JUST so he could find Shaq in it and make life easier for him allowing him to be dominant in a much easier way than if he did what Smush did and not learn it at all and ignore everything Phil did.   Why do you think Shaq says if you have Kobe Bryant on your team he can make ANY system work for you when he didn't buy into Dwight Howard's "system" excuse.

See the difference?
 

 



Again that is why Phil said what he said about Kobe when he was 22 and still learning how to lead.    And despite this blow up and argument, Kobe sold out to buy into Phil's system and sacrifice his stats which won them championships.  Again, different from Smush who just ignored it.    Kobe did it for the good of the team and he TRUSTED Phil enough to do it.  That speaks volumes especially when you quote that entire blow up.  It makes the fact that Kobe sold out and sacrificed stats to trust Phil even MORE of a big deal and showing how willing he was to compromise if it meant winning a championship.

Compare that to Smush who was fine with losing as long as he got even with Kobe... see what I mean? 

Kobe would tell Phil "I hate this offense" and then go master it and win championships with it and make it easier on his teammates with it. 

Smush said "I'm better than this offense."  and never tried to learn it and went out there to do his own thing.

And again Jordan had 4 years of college along with 8 years leading a team before Phil even got there.    Kobe came out of high school, rode the bench for his first two years and was semi leading that team with Shaq for what... 2? 

Again as L.A.K.E.R. said, Kobe had mastered being a leader by the time the 08-09 season rolled around and we went to 3 straight finals, he'd suffered as much as he had to suffer and learned what he had to learn during Phil's second stint and in reality those were the YEARS he actually ran a team.   From the 2nd ring till the 4th ring was a time span of about 5 or 6 years.   Compare it to Jordan who had 4 years of college and 8 years running a team to become the leader he became when Phil got there and Kobe's transition doesn't seem so bad does it?   You also can't compare the leader Kobe was at 22 to the Leader he was at 30 or the leader he is now.    They are not the same and its irrelevant to your current argument that Kobe needs leadership lessons NOW.  Back when he was 22?  Probably.  But not right now at 34.  So your entire quote there is irrelevant to the present time and it wasn't a very good comparison to what Smush did anyway. 
 

 

 

 

No, it lead to 4 Championships.   Because no matter what happened in practice Kobe still learned and mastered the triangle so Shaq would be able to navigate it.  He sacrifices all of his stats so that the team could be successful and win.   He drove a hard bargain and despite the blow ups he had with Phil about the offense at the end of the day who was the guy initiating everything and doing everything to make the triangle work for everyone else because he was the catalyst and the ball handler in that system?      Kobe Bryant.  If he wanted to he could have not done a darn thing that Phil asked and played the entire season stat chasing and losing championship opportunity after championship opportunity.  

Even in his 2nd year when Kobe was pissed at Shaq for not coming to camp in shape and decided to try to put the team on his back which caused Shaq to pout and make his "if the dog aint mean the house don't get guarded" quote. 

Kobe was fighting to TAKE the team from Shaq, and Shaq didn't like it. 

Going so hard eventually cost Kobe though as he injured himself and Shaq played himself back into shape.  What happened when Kobe came back?  He went back to facilitating mode and initiating everything and we finished the season strong and then he became the guy Shaq called the best player in the league during the playoffs.    It was Kobe's team by that 2nd ring, and even Shaq acknowledged it. 

Shaq never "lead" the team after the first ring.   Kobe took those reigns and that's why Shaq had a problem.    Kobe had worked his butt off to come back stronger the next year and Shaq took the entire off-season off.  So come time for training camp Kobe came prepped to take the franchise and BE the franchise and Shaq wasn't ready to deal with that and Kobe demanded more from Shaq and Shaq wanted to stay the "big brother" and Kobe the "little brother" but Little brother started working harder than big brother and talking to Big brother as if he was the boss now.  

And for all intents and purposes, Kobe was.

If it wasn't for Kobe's mastery of the triangle and being able to navigate it, Shaq wouldn't have gotten all the shots and successes he did. 

Once Larry Brown figured that out and cut off the Kobe and Shaq connection what happened?  Shaq got outplayed by Ben Wallace.

Enough said.



I honestly don't think you're giving Kobe enough credit and trying to compare Kobe's leadership at 22 as evidence he needs to work on it NOW over 10 years later is a silly argument and comparison imo.

His leadership despite it's rocky roads which he learned and grew from, lead to 4 rings.   My two cents.

 

 

Majesty, while I overall agree with your point on your reasoning for LA's loss in '04, I think you may be overlooking Kobe's shot selection .

 

38% FG, 22.6 ppg to Shaq's 63% and 26.6.

http://www.basketbal...004_finals.html


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