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Jackson book: MJ over Kobe


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#21 Majesty

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Posted May 17, 2013 - 01:54 PM

why does lebron and wade shoot over 50 percent..... its not like kobe never had the ability to do so....this will always be a knock on kobe bryant along with those two finals losses 


it has a lot to do with who your teammates are too.  LeBron is very physically imposing and 90 percent of his shots come from the post or inside the paint because of his ability to get to the basket.

When he's forced to shoot mid range shots he shoots 48%. 

Different game as well.

Durant shooting over 50% is more impressive, BUT you saw how much that percentage dropped when the entire defense could focus on him the way defenses focus on Kobe.   Durants field goal numbers dropped like a rocket.

You'd have to take that into account.

Another advantage LeBron has is consistent wing players.

Kobe's best teammate thus far has always been post players and until Nash, Kobe didn't really have a "consistent" wing player capable of giving 15 a night if needed.

Jordan was also able to play off ball a bit as well as iso while the triangle took advantage of the triangle and Jordan could go through 2 screens and get open on the block when the pg gets him the ball.

Kobe a majority of the time has to play iso and set up everyone and play the point guard, the shooting guard and the small forward at the same time.   

One of LeBron's advantages is his wing players, he has Wade, he has Ray Allen even Battier etc.

Because of this, when defenses collapse on LeBron, much like Jordan he would pass it out to the perimeter for easier shots so he doesn't have to take as many forced shots.

But whereas with Kobe he IS the only real perimeter threat, aside from Nash, on his team.   So he's looking to pass in the post or he's looking inside.

With Nash playing off ball that is going to change.

But if we look at Kobe in the beginning of the season, when we were losing but Kobe was still trying to initiate everything and play off ball some of the time, he was shooting 50% and scoring high. 

That was the closest he'd get to being a role in plays similar to Jordan and he shot well over 50%.

The problem was this.  His supporting cast and wing players weren't as strong or as consistent, so eventually Kobe had to force it against offenses right away.

Whereas Jordan could pass the ball for 3 quarters just to get everyone involved and then take over and get his in the 4th, Kobe doesn't have that luxury.  Whenever he does though he usually shoots well over 50% and comes close to having a triple double most of those times.


Supporting cast has a lot to do with why or why Kobe won't have to force up shots.

For instance a lineup of


Nash, Kobe, Webster

Would give Kobe a lot of freedom to pass around the perimeter on collapsing defenses.

Whereas

Nash. Kobe, Metta

Metta is NOT a perimeter shooter, he is an inside banger and a guy that wants to play in the post  so teams intentionally leave him open for that reason, they DON'T want Metta in the post, and as long as Pau is starting 4 and Clark hasn't emerged then Metta is the starting 3, this is the disadvantage of our starting lineup if we wanted to go with a perimeter attack and free Kobe up in the same ways.


personnel and consistency has a lot to do with why Kobe forces up shots over zone and a majority of the time it's the only available option.


One thing Jordan's teammates always could do was move as a unit, they all moved, when Jordan had the ball they were constantly in movement trying to find openings and Jordan could find them. 

Even if defenses tried to focus on Jordan his teammates were in constant movement, therefore when double teamed Jordan always found them.

That was what made the triangle a thing of beauty when they ran it through Jordan that way, cause while Jordan sized up, his teammates would run through, one or two screens to get somewhere and make defenses react, sometimes even opening up an entire side for Jordan to attack from.

Kobe never had that, and Kobe never had the triangle ran through him in the same way.

The triangle Phil ran with Kobe was a triangle that was post based not guard based and was entirely different. 

The reason is because we never had a point guard that was capable of running it that way nor the perimeter players consistent enough to deliver in that way, and if we'd run it that way we'd be leaving Shaq out to dry, so Kobe was the one that sacrificed his shots to get Shaq better ones.


The other times we ran triangle through Kobe we had Kwame Brown and Smush parker...

When Pau got here we ran it as a two man game between Pau and Kobe.

Kobe has never had the team to run the triangle the way Jordan was able to.  His numbers suffer because of lack of consistency on the perimeter. 

When Kobe is able to wade in the weeds much like Jordan used to, then he is able to be extremely effective, shoots over 50% and has a high number of assists and gets his points somewhere in the third and 4th quarter and maybe a little at half time.

Kobe has stated many times that the more he gets to wade in the weeds the better things get because his teammates are constantly moving and getting one another involved or he can get them involved while facilitating to them, much like Jordan could.


The problem was, that only happened one out of every eight or nine games for Kobe.  Whereas with Jordan it happened mostly nine out of ten.



Also, what Phil says about the "Kobe going a long way before being a leader like Jordan"

The main reason for that is this

Kobe came out of high school.     Jordan went to college and had to be a leader there.
Jordan was thrust into the league at a starting position and had to lead his team from game one and was years into being a leader before Phil even got there.
Whereas Kobe had to ride the bench his first 2 years and when he finally got playing time..
Kobe wasn't thrust into the leadership role with Shaq there and wasn't asked to lead, he was asked to take a backseat to Shaq.
Kobe started to take the reigns on the leadership in his 2nd year with Shaq and they clashed because of it.  Though Kobe still sacrificing his stats for Shaq's benefit for the team over the next 2 years should say something about his leadership as well.

After Shaq left was when Kobe had to really become a leader and mature as one through trial and error as it was his firsto pportunity and the first time in his entire career he had to deal with the comparitive to Jordan's Bulls teams when he first got into the league.

So that's really an unfair statement to Kobe to be honest.

Had Kobe gone to college, and thrust into the leadership role on the Lakers from game one, by the time Phil got there Kobe would have had years of maturing and leadership trial and error and it would probably be closer.


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores 


#22 Windu

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Posted May 17, 2013 - 03:46 PM

Now look what you did

Pau Gasol is GONE


#23 spacedog1

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Posted May 17, 2013 - 04:57 PM

I think it's cool how this site actually has posts that have a lot of content and people don't get clowned for it, and I'm not being sarcastic in the least. Oftentimes elsewhere you post something that's over 2 paragraphs and people just make fun of the person for posting so much rather than actually reading it or responding.



#24 BasketballIQ

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Posted May 18, 2013 - 10:07 AM

I have to agree with Phil..

I love Kobe.. Probably my favorite Laker of all time but MJ was the best basketball player I have ever seen.

Had he not taken a sabbatical to play baseball, I think the Bulls could have won 8 straight championships.

So without Rodman or Horace Grant, they would have beat the Rockets? Interesting.

#25 BasketballIQ

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Posted May 18, 2013 - 10:21 AM

Field Goal percentage is a good way for dummies to tell who is a better player.

Steve Nash averaged 12 points at nearly 50% but was he more effective than Jamal Crawford this year or JR Smith?

If MJ and Kobe take 20 shots in a game.
Jordan is 10/20 for 50%
Kobe is 9/20 for 45%.

Lol.

Now offensively, MJ has the hand size and leaping ability edge over Kobe.
I think older MJ had less wear and tear on the legs, so u didn't see him play as beat up as u see Kobe play.


Lets not forget, Kobe was beating teams like the Spurs and Mavericks with Lamar and Luke as sidekicks.

With a PG like Fisher and a Healthy Chris Mihm, we would have been the favorites to get to the WCF.

I digress.

People forget that Kobe's best defensive performances are some of the greatest ever.


The thing about MJ is he ended his career on a high note.

He got individual honors early on, then started winning to end his career.

Kobe won earlier got some individual honors, won some more.
Playing at an unprecedentedly high level and getting criticized.

#26 Tensai

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Posted May 18, 2013 - 10:30 AM

I'm not sure if the point of this debate now is to fuel Kobe even more. Phil is such a cunning bastard that makes me think it could actually be it. Play 5 more years, win 2 more, break Kareem's record and Phil gonna sing the same? I doubt that. Kobe's career is not done, it is Phil who should know that better. Kobe won't let it go like this especially when people are talking as if he is retired now with achilles. At age of 34 nobody was better. Not even Jordan, that they call him G.O.A.T. What they argue with "strong body, bigger hands etc." can only go so far. Jordan would be nothing without those titles. And he'd rank behind Magic and other guys for sure had it not been that 2nd 3peat run.

 

Adding a bit technicality to debate, I invite people to check league average of FG%'s, defensive ratings and other things starting from 80s. It is really irritating when people immediately talk about hand check rules in any Kobe vs. Jordan debate. And even the respected dudes on TV do that. I mean who are you kidding?

 

90s had only one team in ECF that was truly elite. Kobe's era featured Spurs in WCF, that had won 4 titles. We could have made it 4peat had it not been a team like Spurs, heck maybe 5. Like I said before MJ was very lucky to play in that era. He did not overcome Celtics or Lakers. Their time was simply over and Pistons could have gone only so far. None of Barkley, Payton etc. teams were in the same breath as Bulls. Jazz duo were simply too old to beat Bulls 4 times. But these things aren't talked, like never.



#27 Tensai

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Posted May 18, 2013 - 11:06 AM

Kobe's growth was shadowed by Shaq. Eventhough they benefited from each other in that 3peat run, Kobe suffered more. He had already lost 2 years getting benched prior to that. Ask yourself what would happen if Kobe started right off the bat with a more of a central role in the team? Or what would happen if we had Duncan instead of Shaq from the start? How many would we win? 8? 9? If we gonna take it to consistencies, there are a lot that needs to be talked before FG percentages. Like, Kobe having a [expletive] tier team in his prime years compared to Jordan's Pippen. When Durant talks about no year being a wasted year, I wonder if he had watched NBA during 04-07.



#28 BasketballIQ

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Posted May 18, 2013 - 01:05 PM

Kobe has worse numbers bc of Shaq but they won so it helps more than it hurts.

But Kobe could have had more memorable moments without Shaq.


Btw, Blake Griffin going through this with CP3.

And Wade and Bosh would have had much better legacies as individuals if LeBron didn't change their stories.

#29 Majesty

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Posted May 18, 2013 - 07:20 PM

The Kobe similarities with Jordan will never end...  There has been youtube videos showing how similar their moves are...

But this is ALSO another similarity they share..

 

 

michael-jordan.jpg


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores 


#30 Real Deal

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 12:22 AM

Jordan would be nothing without those titles. And he'd rank behind Magic and other guys for sure had it not been that 2nd 3peat run.

LOL, no.  Come on.

 

Take all six rings away, and Jordan is still better than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and many others in that top ten list.  I don't care if we're on a Lakers message board, or a neutral one...Magic didn't have the complete game.  He was nowhere NEAR the defensive player Jordan was, nowhere NEAR the scorer.

 

Championships didn't make Michael Jordan.  His play did.  He's the most complete player we've ever seen, along with Kobe.  Magic, and most every player you'll hear from, will tell you that.  Magic was first in line and helped bring basketball back from the dead, but strictly based on overall play, he's no Jordan.



#31 Tensai

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 01:21 AM

I'm talking about general ranking not talent evaluation. And yes, Jordan would simply be another Karl Malone without those titles. Winning has a lot to do with people's perception of players. When sports people like Stephen A Smith argue that Kobe is not in same stratosphere as Jordan, they don't mean their talent difference, which in my opinion there is none, they talk about the impact they had in the eras they played which has a lot to do with media coverage. Jordan made NBA popular, especially worldwide. Therefore, he will always have that edge over Kobe and other players. However, let's take it to the facts and then you'll see claims like him belonging in an above tier is ridiculous.



#32 BasketballIQ

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 08:13 AM

RD makes a point about Jordan's skillset.

But Magic didn't need great D to dominate the game.

They are in the same level

#33 leor_77

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 10:36 AM

Comparing Lebron's high FG% to Kobe's FG % is just stupid in my opinion.  Lebron has higher field goal because most of his points comes from making layups and dunks.  Lebron is no where near a shot maker like Kobe and Jordan. Not even close.  So for the people who praise lebron for having a high FG % needs to stfu.    SHaq have a higher percentage than lebron in FG..  What does that make him? Does it mean Shaq is a great shooter? Oh wait, shaq only dunks and make 5 footers.  That is one of my pet peeves when people arguement about Lebron FG% is awesome when most of his shots is layups and dunks.   I rather people praise him for being an athlete and able to get pass people than using his FG % because Lebron's FG % is a mirage.   I wish people don't even mention FG% when it comes to lebron.   Just makes me sick.

 

Just stop, man...I mean, seriously. Your line of reasoning is making you look retarded. Believe me, I haaaaaaate Lebron (there's no one in the league I've ever hated more than him), but the POINT of the game is to make more shots than you miss. Bottom line if you feel that way is that Kobe should have taken/made more dunks/lay-ups/etc. Believe me, between some of his horrible off-shooting nights, I really wish he did take more lay-ups, dunks, or just anything closer to the basket. You don't get style points for making a greater degree of difficulty shot/fade-away. You either make it or you don't, and you don't have to like it, but it is what it is.


Same goes with Jordan - The guy just was better statistically, more efficient, better defender, better leader...I appreciate Kobe's desire to be the best, but It is what it is. We look at the facts and we move on.


Edited by leor_77, May 19, 2013 - 10:38 AM.


#34 lakers1o1

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 10:50 AM

I think their career paths and success is based on the position they were placed in as well as the opposition they faced.  I mean common, throughout the years when MJ played, expansion teams which SUCKED were introduced to the NBA (mostly eastern conference teams).  The competition back then I don't think can match up with the talent their is now.  On a physical level, yes, but the talent and ability most of the NBA players have in todays age is ridiculous.

 

MJ is great, and so is Kobe.  Both are the best 2 players within their respected eras and in basketball history in general.  With that being said, I still think Kobe is better.

 

I don't think alot of people see the true value and ability of Scottie and its unfortunate for him that his name always gets masked by the greatness of MJ.  I personally think Pippen is one of the greatest if not best perimeter defenders of all time and MJ's success had alot to do with the contributions that Pippen made.  Kobe on the other hand had Shaq whom stole the spot light and deservingly did so as the most dominant player in his era.  Still if Kobe had somewhat like Scottie and played in the same era as Jordan, who knows what numbers he could have put up...

 

Just incase you guys didn't really know much on expansion teams, heres some info.

http://www.nba.com/a...s/00422957.html

As you can see not a single one of those teams scored more points than allowed which shows their struggles.

 

Jordan won each of his rings in: 1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97, 1997-98

 

As you can see, many expansion teams primarily in the eastern conference were introduced in the NBAjust prior to or during the time span in which Jordan won.  (Charlotte Hornets, Miami Heat, Orlando Magic, Toronto Raptors).  During Jordan's era, the NBA was expanding and little talent existed compared to today's age.


Edited by lakers1o1, May 19, 2013 - 10:59 AM.

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#35 Windu

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 11:20 AM

There was talent in the NBA back then and the league wasn't as soft as it is now. Everyone knows how good Scottie was but he was not on the level of prime Shaq.

MJ pwns everyone so Kobe is no exception.

Pau Gasol is GONE


#36 Majesty

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 12:05 PM

Just stop, man...I mean, seriously. Your line of reasoning is making you look retarded. Believe me, I haaaaaaate Lebron (there's no one in the league I've ever hated more than him), but the POINT of the game is to make more shots than you miss. Bottom line if you feel that way is that Kobe should have taken/made more dunks/lay-ups/etc. Believe me, between some of his horrible off-shooting nights, I really wish he did take more lay-ups, dunks, or just anything closer to the basket. You don't get style points for making a greater degree of difficulty shot/fade-away. You either make it or you don't, and you don't have to like it, but it is what it is.


Same goes with Jordan - The guy just was better statistically, more efficient, better defender, better leader...I appreciate Kobe's desire to be the best, but It is what it is. We look at the facts and we move on.



A lot of it is true though.

Kobe is statistically more effective in the post than LeBron this year, and in terms of mid range jumpers where a majority of Kobe's shots are.

Kobe shoots 47% and LeBron shoots 48%.

The difference is a lot of LeBrons offense comes from getting to the basket and imposing his physical will.  Whereas a lot of Kobe's offense comes from jump shots and midrange jumpers.

They have two different games.

But statistically Kobe is more effective from the post than LeBron and they are separated by a percentage in terms of mid range jumpers.  It shouldn't be shocking.

And in terms of usage rate in terms of scoring or your teammates scoring off of an assist from you.

LeBron is at 43%, and this year Kobe was 41.8%

They aren't as distanced as you think.  Maybe in three point shooting.  But that's understandable as a lot of Kobe's offense is jump shot based, while LeBron shoots three pointers sparingly.
 


Edited by Majesty, May 19, 2013 - 12:06 PM.

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#37 Tensai

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 12:21 PM

98 MVP voting shows every bit of positive bias there is regarding MJ. You don't need to search any further. Kobe can't break that wall, maybe ever but he can present a case like Kareem's or Russell's - something that Jordan doesn't have. Lebron now is getting the same benefit Jordan did and finding himself in a very similar position Jordan had back then with the top dogs retiring (Kareem, Magic, Bird ~ Kobe, Duncan, KG) . I find it hard to believe that Lebron would have been perceived same had he played in Kobe's era starting mid 90s and forward. He'd just be another T-Mac at best.



#38 UNLABORED FLAWLESS

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 03:25 PM

98 MVP voting shows every bit of positive bias there is regarding MJ. You don't need to search any further. Kobe can't break that wall, maybe ever but he can present a case like Kareem's or Russell's - something that Jordan doesn't have. Lebron now is getting the same benefit Jordan did and finding himself in a very similar position Jordan had back then with the top dogs retiring (Kareem, Magic, Bird ~ Kobe, Duncan, KG) . I find it hard to believe that Lebron would have been perceived same had he played in Kobe's era starting mid 90s and forward. He'd just be another T-Mac at best.

Honestly TMAC Prime was better than lebron....Kobe and Tmac were 1a and 1b in 2002-2003



#39 BasketballIQ

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 03:59 PM

There was talent in the NBA back then and the league wasn't as soft as it is now. Everyone knows how good Scottie was but he was not on the level of prime Shaq.

MJ pwns everyone so Kobe is no exception.

This is the soft reasoning that wil forever keep Jordan as an untouchable.

 

Windu, are u really old enough to sy you watched Mj, the samew way you watched Kobe?

 

 

Most people who say stuff like THat are 35 or less, and was in straight up "kid fan mode".

 

 

 

If Mj was THAt great, he would not have only 1 more title than Kobe. He would have about 10 even with the hiatus.

 

And as far as Shaq. Shaq as the leader of a team without another great talent has proved nothing He got swept in a Finals, in a year Mj wasn't playing, and until Kobe evolved into the MOST skilled player in the league, that Shaq was able to lead this team to WCF Game 7, down 14.

 

 

Kobe sparked the rally to win ththat crucial gae.

 

Do you even remember that?

 

Shaq is a really big guy, but I think the Lakers would have considered trading Shaq for Scottie and Rodman, in fact  they would be foolish not to.

The 

Heat  are built  like that, with a bunch of defensive players and shot makers, around two play makers.



#40 Windu

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Posted May 19, 2013 - 06:48 PM

Who's to say if MJ is untouchable? That remains to be seen but what we do know thus far is that none have taken his GOAT crown.

Kobe Bryant is top five all time in my opinion and considering all the backlash and media disrespect he's gotten over the course of his career, top five is pretty damn good. I've only witnessed one player greater than peak Kobe Bryant and that's His Airness.

No need for exaggerating statements. Kobe is great, Lebron is great, Magic and Bird were great, MJ was/is the greatest.

Pau Gasol is GONE





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