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Jason Collins announces he is gay


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#101 bfc1125roy

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 09:08 AM

Not necessarily. No one is born believing

 

True, but it's far easier to convince someone who has no prior beliefs (i.e. a child) versus someone who has made a decision regarding their beliefs (like an agnostic). That's why people usually stick to the views they grew up with. 



#102 Windu

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 09:35 AM

Change isn't always easy

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#103 Real Deal

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:02 AM

The comment about free will wasn't about Jason Collins' choice, it was simply placed into my post to touch on God's hand during births.

 

And the general idea of believing anything is that you're taught, at a young age, to believe many things...until you're told, usually by the same person or one of similar authority (parent or teacher) that it's incorrect, or that there are differences.

 

Growing up, young Christians are taught the Bible, just as a Muslim is taught the Quran.  If two Muslims had a baby in the United States, and decided that he should be a Christian (which would never happen, but let's apply it here), then he would understand the Bible as taught to him, by whichever minister those parents selected.

 

What makes things unbelievable (translation-wise) would be the nature of killing in the Bible.  I'm almost to the point where I think Christians SHOULD believe (according to the book) that murders are justified, because honestly, almost every person on this Earth has sinned before, after birth...and when you dip deep into the words of the Bible, it's pretty shocking how things turn out for sinners.

 

I know a lot of Christians (and even a minister) who will say that people misunderstand scripture, and that not everything in the Bible should be taken literally.  Why not, though?  It's pretty obvious why that's the case, if you've read through it from front to back.

 

So when a human being is put on this Earth with gay tendencies as a young child, too young to focus solely on image and too young to care about one's sexuality, and he/she grows up to be a great person based on today's standards in society, I'm going to refuse to believe that said person should be stoned to death in the same way I don't believe someone getting drunk on his birthday should suffer a similar death, or an eight year old child that steals a pack of gum from a convenient store should die.



#104 Jackson

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:10 AM

It's no question that the Bible has been changed/altered. It's no longer god's words...thus can't be taken seriously (my opinion). Same goes with the Torah.



#105 Jackson

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:13 AM

The comment about free will wasn't about Jason Collins' choice, it was simply placed into my post to touch on God's hand during births.

 

And the general idea of believing anything is that you're taught, at a young age, to believe many things...until you're told, usually by the same person or one of similar authority (parent or teacher) that it's incorrect, or that there are differences.

 

Growing up, young Christians are taught the Bible, just as a Muslim is taught the Quran.  If two Muslims had a baby in the United States, and decided that he should be a Christian (which would never happen, but let's apply it here), then he would understand the Bible as taught to him, by whichever minister those parents selected.

 

What makes things unbelievable (translation-wise) would be the nature of killing in the Bible.  I'm almost to the point where I think Christians SHOULD believe (according to the book) that murders are justified, because honestly, almost every person on this Earth has sinned before, after birth...and when you dip deep into the words of the Bible, it's pretty shocking how things turn out for sinners.

 

I know a lot of Christians (and even a minister) who will say that people misunderstand scripture, and that not everything in the Bible should be taken literally.  Why not, though?  It's pretty obvious why that's the case, if you've read through it from front to back.

 

So when a human being is put on this Earth with gay tendencies as a young child, too young to focus solely on image and too young to care about one's sexuality, and he/she grows up to be a great person based on today's standards in society, I'm going to refuse to believe that said person should be stoned to death in the same way I don't believe someone getting drunk on his birthday should suffer a similar death, or an eight year old child that steals a pack of gum from a convenient store should die.

Free will has to do more with nurture rather than nature. So basically how you grew up, who raised you, and the environment surrounding you as you grew up, plays a major role on you. I don't think Collins became gay because of his genetics. He became gay because of they way he was raised...(what he saw, what he did, what he was taught to think).



#106 Real Deal

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:14 AM

Change isn't always easy

So this opens up another question: if things were different, and you were forced (by the Bible) to like another man...would you be able to?  This isn't me asking if you'd be able to have sex with another...I'm asking if you could actually ENJOY the opposite of what you are (heterosexual) today, and never look back, if it was asked of you in the Bible.

 

I don't believe so.  I believe change is impossible for a homosexual, because it's an attraction, not a style or decision.

 

I'll answer the question myself: no, I couldn't.

 

And the main point is, it would have to be forced...and disliked, which means it's not up to Jason Collins to wake up tomorrow morning and say, "Well damn, I'm going to be attracted to women now."

 

The biggest indication of this?  Children committing suicide because they CAN'T change who they are.  When you're at that point, and you still can't change who you're attracted to, it's clear as day it's not a choice.



#107 Real Deal

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:21 AM

Free will has to do more with nurture rather than nature. So basically how you grew up, who raised you, and the environment surrounding you as you grew up, plays a major role on you. I don't think Collins became gay because of his genetics. He became gay because of they way he was raised...(what he saw, what he did, what he was taught to think).

Again, I wasn't applying it to choices made...different discussion.  My use of free will is to prove that God does not interfere, nothing more.  If a black man and a white woman want to have a baby, God isn't going to turn that baby into a Mexican.  If a baby is born with defects, he isn't going to change that.  It's not exactly free will, but it's the result of God not being present to alter course.

 

Yes, free will has everything to do with a human's progression through life, but God not in the driver's seat is the main focus.  I simply don't believe that God has a hand in anything, at this point...he has full control at the touch of his fingertips, but he's a spectator.  Otherwise, he would be "picking and choosing" among his children, and that really doesn't sound God-like to me, especially when I see kids with cancer and other devastating illnesses.



#108 Game

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:30 AM

Actually a lot. Bigotry. Mass Murders. Corruption. Organized religion is easily the best way to brainwash and control people. Being a Christian myself, I always upheld what I consider the second greatest gift from God, free will. Organized religion doesn't give a [expletive] about your free will as their words are absolute.

 

Also, being gay is not a choice. It's Genetics.

 

 

Genes are chromosomes which is what makes us male or female.

a male chromosome is XY

and a female chromosome is XX

Now with a straight man and straight woman there is a balance of XY andXX chromosomes I don’t know how many as I am not a scientist, but there is quite a lot.

However a gay man has one more XX female chromosome than that of the straight man and

a gay woman has one more XY male chromosome than the straight woman.

That is the only difference between gay people and the straight people homosexuals have one more gene than the heterosexuals nothing else, They don’t have two heads nor two hearts or any other extra features that people may say of with their nonsense stories that they stupidly believe.

don't think this is correct.  there is such a thing as humans with extra X or Y chromosomes (XXY, XXX, XYY i believe) but that does not correlate with their sexual orientation.  unless that's new information from when i studied this years ago in AP bio


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#109 Massacre

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 10:45 AM

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EAT
SLEEP
CONQUER
REPEAT

#110 LakeShow805

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 11:21 AM

Free will has to do more with nurture rather than nature. So basically how you grew up, who raised you, and the environment surrounding you as you grew up, plays a major role on you. I don't think Collins became gay because of his genetics. He became gay because of they way he was raised...(what he saw, what he did, what he was taught to think).

This contributes to the way he acts, if he were to act more "feminine".....but not who he is attracted to. You really can't be taught who you are attracted to.

 

And lets be honest, who is going to "raise" their child to be gay in today's society? Theres too much discrimination towards them right now and still is considered  "weird" to a lot of people.


Edited by LakeShow805, May 01, 2013 - 11:23 AM.


#111 Jackson

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 11:42 AM

This contributes to the way he acts, if he were to act more "feminine".....but not who he is attracted to. You really can't be taught who you are attracted to.

 

And lets be honest, who is going to "raise" their child to be gay in today's society? Theres too much discrimination towards them right now and still is considered  "weird" to a lot of people.

Maybe he saw his mom being very affectionate to other females? Maybe he saw his male siblings or father do something very unique to another guy and he...liked it? Maybe he had a very good childhood buddy who he grew up to love, thus changing his perspective on things?

 

@Real Deal

 

I honestly believe god lets us choose what we're going to do and be. He shows us paths as we progress in life and in turn we choose what we want to do. But god has frowned upon a lot of things. He will let you choose what you want to do and be, but if you go ahead and cross the red line, there will be punishment.

 

You want to blow up people while running a marathon? Go ahead. But enjoy your severe punishment in the here-after. Not only that, but the people you killed, their sins will add to yours.

 

(My opinion)


Edited by Jackson, May 01, 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#112 Windu

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 11:54 AM

The comment about free will wasn't about Jason Collins' choice, it was simply placed into my post to touch on God's hand during births.

And the general idea of believing anything is that you're taught, at a young age, to believe many things...until you're told, usually by the same person or one of similar authority (parent or teacher) that it's incorrect, or that there are differences.

Growing up, young Christians are taught the Bible, just as a Muslim is taught the Quran. If two Muslims had a baby in the United States, and decided that he should be a Christian (which would never happen, but let's apply it here), then he would understand the Bible as taught to him, by whichever minister those parents selected.

What makes things unbelievable (translation-wise) would be the nature of killing in the Bible. I'm almost to the point where I think Christians SHOULD believe (according to the book) that murders are justified, because honestly, almost every person on this Earth has sinned before, after birth...and when you dip deep into the words of the Bible, it's pretty shocking how things turn out for sinners.

I know a lot of Christians (and even a minister) who will say that people misunderstand scripture, and that not everything in the Bible should be taken literally. Why not, though? It's pretty obvious why that's the case, if you've read through it from front to back.

So when a human being is put on this Earth with gay tendencies as a young child, too young to focus solely on image and too young to care about one's sexuality, and he/she grows up to be a great person based on today's standards in society, I'm going to refuse to believe that said person should be stoned to death in the same way I don't believe someone getting drunk on his birthday should suffer a similar death, or an eight year old child that steals a pack of gum from a convenient store should die.


Bear with me, on my phone...

As a child, I was simply told the differences between right and wrong and was disclipined accordingly.

As far as people growing up without the teachings of Christ, I get that but as time goes on wouldn't those people be exposed to Christianity eventually? Which goes back to my point of we're all going to have to make a decision. There are plenty of people who aren't follwers of Christ's teachings who disagree with homosexuality.

With regards to Scripture, yes there were many instances of violence but most are not condonded by God. Most will point to the Old Testament to get their point across before understanding the why behind such actions. Sin is not the last straw; most people can't grasp an understanding of Scripture...let alone the transition of Old Testament to New Testament. Back to sin, there is forgiveness for virtually every sin...even homosexuality. No one is without sin...no one is blameless. I read it front to back...all the way thru...on numerous occasions and truthfully a LOT of people don't understand it but when you read it...what are your intentions? Are you reading it because you enjoy learning? Are you reading it to increase your faith? Are you reading it because you're seeking guidance? Or...are you reading it with a different type of motive? In an attempt to disprove something? To say "ah hah!" (Speaking in general by the way)

He who is without sin cast the first stone. God will judge these people (and all of us) so that's why I said we all have to choose what to believe. We will just keep going in circles but this will come down to each and every one of us. This subject is sensitive because it seems unfair to individuals who can't help who they are and I get that...I REALLY do; I just disagree and I can't in good conscience be contrary to God.

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#113 Windu

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 12:11 PM

So this opens up another question: if things were different, and you were forced (by the Bible) to like another man...would you be able to? This isn't me asking if you'd be able to have sex with another...I'm asking if you could actually ENJOY the opposite of what you are (heterosexual) today, and never look back, if it was asked of you in the Bible.

I don't believe so. I believe change is impossible for a homosexual, because it's an attraction, not a style or decision.

I'll answer the question myself: no, I couldn't.

And the main point is, it would have to be forced...and disliked, which means it's not up to Jason Collins to wake up tomorrow morning and say, "Well damn, I'm going to be attracted to women now."

The biggest indication of this? Children committing suicide because they CAN'T change who they are. When you're at that point, and you still can't change who you're attracted to, it's clear as day it's not a choice.


Hmm can't imagine that scenario honestly. But for the sake of discussion, God doesn't force me to do anything. I have his teachings, I believe in Him 1000% ...if God's instructions from the beginning were for a man to leave his house and join with another man well then Scripture would be vastly different and so would human history.

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#114 PhillyLaker24

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 01:03 PM

I think it is nice and all that the guy is being true to himself, but I am tired about reading it and seeing it every where. Its amazing how much American media has changed. Tebow gets blasted for being all religious out in the open, but a guy comes out and says he is gay and gets praised as if he cured cancer.


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#115 steven v

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 02:12 PM

First and foremost, kudos to Jason Collins. Hoping for all the courage and success in his life. Power to him!

 

Here's what I think about the whole Chris Broussard situation. Of course he is entitled to his own opinion. He is allowed to say what he feels (unless he is a true idiot about it). But what irks me is that there are other things in the Bible that are said to be a sin as well right? Having so much money, all those tattoos on the players, working on Sundays (like someone said previously), adultery, children out of wedlock. Right? Yet the moment someone comes out that is when Chris all of a sudden says it's a sin. So the inks on skin is okay? Yet loving another man is a sin?

 

He (Jason) is brave, because even though so many people are more liberal and open minded these days, it's still scary for them. 


Some of you are saying how once the opinion is directed against "being gay", then the person is ultimately shunned and how that's not okay.
 

Let's also look at Mark Jackson's comment. I don't really understand the context but he said that he is praying for Jason and his family. Yet...when he cheated on his wife, he was a true Christian. All jibber jabber.

 

Sure you're right on the fact that they should have their own opinion, such as Chris and Mark. But they are letting some things roll of their back while being gay is ultimately a sin to them. That makes most of their opinions end up to be hypocritically because to them everything is okay (even if it may be against the bible) but once you're gay, that's when it's a sin.

 

That's the only part that irks me. Just don't be a hypocrite.

 

Once again, kudos to Jason.

 

Let's hope for equality and peace for every one.

 

 

 

 

Hypocrisy.  

 

 

 

The bible is full of it and a lot of people who read that book don't realize that it is. 


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#116 K-Kris

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 03:31 PM


I think it is nice and all that the guy is being true to himself, but I am tired about reading it and seeing it every where. Its amazing how much American media has changed. Tebow gets blasted for being all religious out in the open, but a guy comes out and says he is gay and gets praised as if he cured cancer.



#117 Windu

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 03:42 PM

Hypocrisy.



The bible is full of it and a lot of people who read that book don't realize that it is.


Not true

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#118 K-Kris

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 03:44 PM

Hypocrisy.



The bible is full of it and a lot of people who read that book don't realize that it is.


Thats your opinion. Dont go off saying that like its a fact.

#119 AnnoyingCustomer

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 04:28 PM

Can't get through with a Non Believer 

 

:laughing: 


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#120 Game

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Posted May 01, 2013 - 05:08 PM

this thread needs to stay on topic or it gets locked...

 

thread is becoming dominated by discussion about personal beliefs


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