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Is Kobe the greatest scorer to play the game?


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#41 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:18 PM

He takes like 4-5 shots around 15ft. And that is just a footage you know. Not fluke. How many 7'1 guys you know that can score fadeaway 15 footers? Obviously he is not Sabonis. And nobody claimed him to be. Well, prime Sabonis was arguably the 2nd best Center of all time but that's besides the point. Wilt was an offensive juggernaut at least at the level of Jordan. (I don't care if Jordan could score couple of jumpers in college, he was pretty much limited from beyond mid range and didn't improve until mid-late in his career)

 

We are talking about scorers not shooters. Wilt deserves to be up there with Kobe. Kobe passing him in all time scoring list won't change that fact a bit.



#42 Real Deal

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:35 PM

We are talking about scorers not shooters. Wilt deserves to be up there with Kobe. Kobe passing him in all time scoring list won't change that fact a bit.

No, we are talking about shooters, because you stated that Wilt hit 20-foot jumpers consistently...which is not true.

 

I'm not saying Wilt doesn't belong up there.  I made it clear as day that he's in the discussion.

 

But there's no reason to say that Wilt hit jumpers that far out...when he didn't.  

 

Fadeaway 15-footers are not 16-20 foot shots, by the way.  That range seems to shrink as we dig further into the discussion.  The significance of 1-2 feet on a jumpshot is incredibly underestimated...just ask Shaq.

 

And I'll take your word for it, that there were three other shots 15 feet out in that video...but I only saw one in the first four minutes.

 

Irrelevant at this point, anyway, because four 15-footers in a 7-minute highlight video does not give any indication that he had range from 16-20 feet out.

 

Where can I argue that Wilt was the greatest scorer?  He dropped 100 in a game, averaged 50 PPG, has more 50+ point games than anyone by a mile, had more 50s in a season than Jordan had in his entire career.  Unfortunately, the league had 10 or less teams, size was a HUGE factor, there were no three second calls back then, very few players were athletic enough to contest him, among a few other reasons why it would be easy for him to dominate.

 

I find it funny that people are quick to point out easy/tough schedules moving ahead for certain teams, the weaker Eastern Conference for the Miami Heat (injuries + teams just not being as good), the differences between hand-checking and zone, but yet, they refuse to acknowledge the lack of size, athleticism, strength and restrictions back in the 50s and 60s.

 

A 30+ year old Wilt Chamberlain never scored 25+ PPG.  There are a few reasons for that.

 

In Wilt's first seven years of his career (the seven he averaged 30+ PPG)...these are his shooting percentages: 

 

46.1%
50.9%
50.6%
52.8%
52.4%
51.0%
54.0%
 
He attempted 39.5 FGA/G and 17 FTA/G to average 50 PPG...at 50.6% FG.
 
Wilt wasn't as efficient as he should have been in his absolute prime.  When he hit 30, his efficiency went up BIG TIME...and yet, his scoring never saw 25+ PPG again.  Again, there are reasons for this that I shouldn't have to explain.
 
Wilt took a lot of shots, and played a lot of minutes...and dominated a lot of players who had no business defending him, like the rail-thin 6-10, 205-pound center, 6-9 PF and the 6-6 SF that were stuck on him when he scored 100, and his team was purposely trying to get him to reach 100 points.


#43 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:46 PM

No, we are talking about shooters, because you stated that Wilt hit 20-foot jumpers consistently...which is not true.

Where did I say he shot 20-foot jumpers consistently?

 

And Wilt wasn't that efficient when he averaged over 30 ppg because as proven by general facts when the number of shots a player takes, the focus of defense will shift greatly to that said player and shots will be contested shots and as a result the player's efficiency will decrease. The reason why his efficiency goes up as he takes less shots is just that.

 

And it doesn't matter if the era he played in was small. There were still good forwards and centers, to name Bill Russell, Walt Bellamy, Bob Pettit, Willis Reed etc. Hell, Shaq's competition seems less compared to this.

 

Wilt was the strongest athlete ever, and with that size and skill, he is a transcendental player that can play in any era and still dominate. Wilt said he'd have averaged 70 ppg had he played in 90s. Of course that's a big exaggeration but I'll take his word for it if he sees 90s as weak compared to the competition he faced.



#44 West Coast

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:52 PM

Where did I say he shot 20-foot jumpers consistently?

 

He could have easily dominated ANY era. It's not his fault that NBA was small back then. 7'2 giant with 50 inch vertical that can shoot from 20ft away. Please. Other than FT woes, he was perfect x perfect.

 

When you state something like that, why wouldn't we believe that you mean consistently? In that case, Dwight Howard is a 6'11 athletic freak that can shoot three pointers. 



#45 Real Deal

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:55 PM

You said he had range out to 20 feet.  Did you mean that he has hit a 16-20 foot shot 5-10 times in a season?  That's believable, actually, and I'll take that.  Inconsistent shooting from 20 feet means he doesn't have that kind of range.

 

LOL, glad I never heard Wilt say he'd average 70 PPG in the 90s, because that's pretty asinine.

 

In the 90s, Wilt would not average over 40, and he would not pull down over 20 boards.  That's a generous statement, and me giving him a LOT of credit, basically calling him the greatest center to ever live (and he is).



#46 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:57 PM

When you state something like that, why wouldn't we believe that you mean consistently? In that case, Dwight Howard is a 6'11 athletic freak that can shoot three pointers. 

 

If you understood it like that, you need to take both English 101 and Basketball History 101. Obviously it was an exaggeration on my part, which I admitted later on.

 

I don't understand what is the point of getting stuck in that "20 ft" comment that it requires the attention in all posts. What are we talking about in this thread? Wilt's range or scoring potency?


Edited by Goku, April 01, 2013 - 12:58 PM.


#47 Real Deal

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:58 PM

My hatred for Shaq has died down a bit, and I never did like his attitude, but Wilt's 70 PPG statement really, really makes me wish he had an opportunity to play in the 90s and 00s.  I would have loved to see Shaq stick a few shoulders into his chest for saying it, and then maybe a Dikembe or Ewing elbow in the forehead the following game.



#48 West Coast

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:58 PM

If you understood it like that, you need to take both English 101 and Basketball History 101. Obviously it was an exaggeration on my part, which I admitted later on.

 

I don't understand what is the point of getting stuck in that "20 ft" comment that it requires the attention in all posts. What are we talking about in this thread?

 

And you make a stupid comment like that. 

 

Funny. 



#49 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 12:59 PM

My hatred for Shaq has died down a bit, and I never did like his attitude, but Wilt's 70 PPG statement really, really makes me wish he had an opportunity to play in the 90s and 00s.  I would have loved to see Shaq stick a few shoulders into his chest for saying it, and then maybe a Dikembe or Ewing elbow in the forehead the following game.

 

I don't think that would be wise on their part.



#50 Real Deal

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:00 PM

If you understood it like that, you need to take both English 101 and Basketball History 101. Obviously it was an exaggeration on my part, which I admitted later on.

 

I don't understand what is the point of getting stuck in that "20 ft" comment that it requires the attention in all posts. What are we talking about in this thread? Wilt's range or scoring potency?

The comment is significant because, if Dwight Howard can make 20-foot jumpers, he suddenly becomes one of the greatest centers of all time, probably one of the greatest scorers as well...and immediately, we stop talking about how limited he is on offense.

 

If things like that don't have merit in this topic, what's the point of discussing how a player scores the ball?



#51 Scooter123

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:01 PM

The title to this thread ought to be whether Kobe is the greatest SCORER to play the game.

 

The fallacy in equating scoring with a great player is obvious.  A great player plays shut him down defense, and would have significant steals per game.  A great player would hustle to get rebounds, and would have a double double or triple double stat sheet.  A great player dishes the ball to other players who score.  A great player provides leadership in the lockeroom which makes other members of his team perform better to a higher level than they ordinarily would.  A great player is a great person and a role model for your son. 

 

There have been many lists of the best players in the NBA and Kobe is on all of those lists.  That said, other great players include Jordan, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Wilt, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Kareem and Bill Russell. 

 

In 1996, the NBA sponsored a vote of the 50 best players in the NBA and voting was by media, coaches, and players.  The list can be found at http://en.wikipedia...._in_NBA_History  Obviously, Kobe was not around when the survey was taken, but I find the list of players to be interesting, and many long forgotten players by today's fans remain at the top of the list years after they left the game. 

 

I don't disagree with the proposition that Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players in the NBA, but a two way comparison between Kobe and Chamberlain is too simplistic and fails to take into account other great players, although not prolific scorers.



#52 Real Deal

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:01 PM

I don't think that would be wise on their part.

Of course not, because Wilt would drop 150 on them and pull down 50 boards, drain 13 threes and tear Kobe's knees with Iverson-like crossovers.



#53 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:02 PM

The comment is significant because, if Dwight Howard can make 20-foot jumpers, he suddenly becomes one of the greatest centers of all time, probably one of the greatest scorers as well...and immediately, we stop talking about how limited he is on offense.

 

If things like that don't have merit in this topic, what's the point of discussing how a player scores the ball?

I'm not that concerned about someone replying to my comment. That is just not the focus here. It should have been well understood way after I explained in previous page. But, I guess it wasn't.

 

Anyway, moving on.



#54 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:13 PM

The title to this thread ought to be whether Kobe is the greatest SCORER to play the game.

 

The fallacy in equating scoring with a great player is obvious.  A great player plays shut him down defense, and would have significant steals per game.  A great player would hustle to get rebounds, and would have a double double or triple double stat sheet.  A great player dishes the ball to other players who score.  A great player provides leadership in the lockeroom which makes other members of his team perform better to a higher level than they ordinarily would.  A great player is a great person and a role model for your son. 

 

There have been many lists of the best players in the NBA and Kobe is on all of those lists.  That said, other great players include Jordan, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Wilt, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Kareem and Bill Russell. 

 

In 1996, the NBA sponsored a vote of the 50 best players in the NBA and voting was by media, coaches, and players.  The list can be found at http://en.wikipedia...._in_NBA_History  Obviously, Kobe was not around when the survey was taken, but I find the list of players to be interesting, and many long forgotten players by today's fans remain at the top of the list years after they left the game. 

 

I don't disagree with the proposition that Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players in the NBA, but a two way comparison between Kobe and Chamberlain is too simplistic and fails to take into account other great players, although not prolific scorers.

 

Title:

Is Kobe the greatest scorer to play the game?

#55 LakeShow805

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:28 PM

The title to this thread ought to be whether Kobe is the greatest SCORER to play the game.

 

The fallacy in equating scoring with a great player is obvious.  A great player plays shut him down defense, and would have significant steals per game.  A great player would hustle to get rebounds, and would have a double double or triple double stat sheet.  A great player dishes the ball to other players who score.  A great player provides leadership in the lockeroom which makes other members of his team perform better to a higher level than they ordinarily would.  A great player is a great person and a role model for your son. 

 

There have been many lists of the best players in the NBA and Kobe is on all of those lists.  That said, other great players include Jordan, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Wilt, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Kareem and Bill Russell. 

 

In 1996, the NBA sponsored a vote of the 50 best players in the NBA and voting was by media, coaches, and players.  The list can be found at http://en.wikipedia...._in_NBA_History  Obviously, Kobe was not around when the survey was taken, but I find the list of players to be interesting, and many long forgotten players by today's fans remain at the top of the list years after they left the game. 

 

I don't disagree with the proposition that Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players in the NBA, but a two way comparison between Kobe and Chamberlain is too simplistic and fails to take into account other great players, although not prolific scorers.

It is........lol



#56 LakersChamps243

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 01:52 PM

Yes he is. Every era has gotten harder and harder... no disrespect to the big fellas- Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Malone- but it's a lot tougher to score that many points as a guard

Edited by LakersChamps243, April 01, 2013 - 01:53 PM.

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#57 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 02:07 PM

I honestly believe that anything pre-late 70s as far as NBA history is concerned needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Or maybe a tub full of it.

 

There was such a low quality of basketball being played prior to the modern age that there was rampant stat inflation all throughout the league. No defense being played, only a handful of guys understood the concept of the jump-shot, and as far as rebounding was concerned, it was basically just two guys battling for the boards while the other 8 players sprinted to the other end. And honestly, if you watch any old footage of the game from back then, it becomes clear just how terrible the quality of players were in that time. There were a handful of transcendent players, but the majority of players from that era would have had huge struggles today. Players from that era are remembered fondly due to nostalgia and all that stat inflation when looking at the record books, but really, only a few of them could have had the same success 15-20 years later.



#58 RobBlake

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 02:44 PM

If you understood it like that, you need to take both English 101 and Basketball History 101. Obviously it was an exaggeration on my part, which I admitted later on.

 

I don't understand what is the point of getting stuck in that "20 ft" comment that it requires the attention in all posts. What are we talking about in this thread? Wilt's range or scoring potency?

Maybe you need to take English 101 to learn how to convey your message clearer? 

 

Wilt would not avg 70 ppg in the 90s, let alone the 80s, Wilt had the benefit of an early NBA. If Jordan played when Chamberlin played he would be avg. equal numbers if not better than Wilt.


Edited by RobBlake, April 01, 2013 - 02:44 PM.

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#59 Tensai

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 03:36 PM

MJ would be just another Elgin Baylor in that era.

 

and piss off with the bait.


Edited by Goku, April 01, 2013 - 03:37 PM.


#60 reryo

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Posted April 01, 2013 - 03:43 PM

Kobe could be the most multi-dimensional scorer to ever play the game. Any offensive technique you can name, Kobe has it in his arsenal. Midrange stepback, pump-fake, foot feints, head fakes, pass fakes, post-ups, fadeaways, mini-hooks, no look passes, [expletive] it I can write an entire essay on Kobe's offensive skillset. There won't be another complete scorer like him any time soon, basketball fans need to appreciate this guy while he is still playing.






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