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Re-clariying why Pau Gasol shouldn't start


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#81 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 12:37 PM

Also, for the record... when Pau came out of the game we were down 2 points. We ended up losing the game by 3 points. That means we got outscored by 1 point at home in the second half of the 4th quarter against the Wizards WITH Pau on the bench.

 

I'd like everyone whose been implying we lost yesterday's game because of Pau to respond to this directly.



#82 LakersChamps243

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 12:45 PM

Also, for the record... when Pau came out of the game we were down 2 points. We ended up losing the game by 3 points. That means we got outscored by 1 point at home in the second half of the 4th quarter against the Wizards WITH Pau on the bench.

 

I'd like everyone whose been implying we lost yesterday's game because of Pau to respond to this directly.

Because we were playing desperate to try and not blow the game... the bottom line is the Wizards went on the 18-7 run late in the third until around the 8:50 mark in the 4th that gave them the necessary momentum and confidence to win the game WITH Pau in the starting lineup. 


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#83 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 12:47 PM

If we're a better team without Pau why even play him 24 minutes? Why not just the 12 minutes when Pau is on the bench? You're being incredibly inconsistent with your logic.

 

You also didn't answer the question concerning our defense when Dwight was on the bench last night. What alternative do we have other than Pau playing C? Do you think we're better off with Jamison or Clark at C when Dwight sits? I want a straight answer.

 

If I had my way, we would have gotten rid of him at the deadline. 22-24 mpg is more realistic because he's a better alternative than having either Jamison or Clark at the 5 against some teams, not all. Also, because we need to showcase what little value he has left for a potential trade in the future, since we're not going to amnesty an expiring contract. We need to pair him up with a unit that can hide him as a defensive liability. If you have smart defenders on the floor, or can at least run an efficient offense and limit the opposition in transition, it's possible to hide such glaring weaknesses. But it still wouldn't be successful if Gasol isn't aggressive on the offensive end and isn't focused on the defensive end, which has sadly been the case for much of this year.

 

Jamison/Clark actually show effort on the defensive end. Jamison is a horrid defender, but he isn't just giving up the open lane time and time again like Gasol has done for much of this season. Clark isn't big enough to guard teams with legitimate 5s (there are only like two others), but he's more than capable against the majority of teams in this league. If Gasol is being a complete liability on the defensive end, either of those two are a much better alternative.

 

Against a team like Washington you can play a 4/5 lineup of Jamison/Clark and not get burned as badly provided you have the right pieces out on the floor. That means Kobe Bryant and MWP playing the 2 and 3. You can't have Nash/Blake/Meeks out there at the same time with either Jamison or Gasol. That's basically begging the other team to go on a run.

 

If Pau isn't going to roll on the P&R, finish inside when he has a clear height/skill advantage, or play basic help defense as the last line of defense, he doesn't deserve his minutes. If he's being an obvious liability on the floor (as he was last night), he should be yanked much earlier.



#84 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 12:50 PM

Because we were playing desperate to try and not blow the game... the bottom line is the Wizards went on the 18-7 run late in the third until around the 8:50 mark in the 4th that gave them the necessary momentum and confidence to win the game WITH Pau in the starting lineup. 

 

No.

 

The bottom line is we had three days rest and we couldn't come back from being down 2 points at home against the Wizards (with Pau on the bench).


Edited by Cato, March 23, 2013 - 12:52 PM.


#85 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 12:52 PM

If I had my way, we would have gotten rid of him at the deadline. 22-24 mpg is more realistic because he's a better alternative than having either Jamison or Clark at the 5 against some teams, not all. Also, because we need to showcase what little value he has left for a potential trade in the future, since we're not going to amnesty an expiring contract. We need to pair him up with a unit that can hide him as a defensive liability. If you have smart defenders on the floor, or can at least run an efficient offense and limit the opposition in transition, it's possible to hide such glaring weaknesses. But it still wouldn't be successful if Gasol isn't aggressive on the offensive end and isn't focused on the defensive end, which has sadly been the case for much of this year.

 

Jamison/Clark actually show effort on the defensive end. Jamison is a horrid defender, but he isn't just giving up the open lane time and time again like Gasol has done for much of this season. Clark isn't big enough to guard teams with legitimate 5s (there are only like two others), but he's more than capable against the majority of teams in this league. If Gasol is being a complete liability on the defensive end, either of those two are a much better alternative.

 

Against a team like Washington you can play a 4/5 lineup of Jamison/Clark and not get burned as badly provided you have the right pieces out on the floor. That means Kobe Bryant and MWP playing the 2 and 3. You can't have Nash/Blake/Meeks out there at the same time with either Jamison or Gasol. That's basically begging the other team to go on a run.

 

If Pau isn't going to roll on the P&R, finish inside when he has a clear height/skill advantage, or play basic help defense as the last line of defense, he doesn't deserve his minutes. If he's being an obvious liability on the floor (as he was last night), he should be yanked much earlier.

 

Just out of curiosity - because I think we're almost at a point in this season where it's time to reminisce - do you think Pau (and conversely this Lakers team) could have been legitimately effective if we would have gotten Phil back 5 games in?



#86 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 12:54 PM

Also, for the record... when Pau came out of the game we were down 2 points. We ended up losing the game by 3 points. That means we got outscored by 1 point at home in the second half of the 4th quarter against the Wizards WITH Pau on the bench.

 

I'd like everyone whose been implying we lost yesterday's game because of Pau to respond to this directly.

 

18-7 run by the Wizards from 1:47 in the 3rd quarter to 8:50 left in the 4th quarter. Pau Gasol checked in with the Lakers up 9, checked out with the Lakers down 2. During that stretch, the Wizards ran high P&R in the halfcourt dragging Pau out and giving up the open lane. When Pau didn't step out, Wall simply pulled up for wide-open looks from the mid-range area. No one was within 3 feet of him on a handful of those possessions. When the lane was open, Wall either drove and finished or kicked it out where they swung the ball and found open shooters. Our defense collapsed multiple times due to Nash/Gasol getting destroyed off the high P&R, compromising our perimeter defense, thus leading to the numerous looks from the the Wizards beyond the arc.

 

Dwight Howard didn't allow that to happen through 3 quarters, the Wizards were stifled in the half-court because Dwight actually knows how to defend the high P&R. Once he checked back in, Wall and Ariza were in rhythm, the Wizards had stolen momentum, and they rode it out to finish the game.



#87 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:00 PM

18-7 run by the Wizards from 1:47 in the 3rd quarter to 8:50 left in the 4th quarter. Pau Gasol checked in with the Lakers up 9, checked out with the Lakers down 2. During that stretch, the Wizards ran high P&R in the halfcourt dragging Pau out and giving up the open lane. When Pau didn't step out, Wall simply pulled up for wide-open looks from the mid-range area. No one was within 3 feet of him on a handful of those possessions. When the lane was open, Wall either drove and finished or kicked it out where they swung the ball and found open shooters. Our defense collapsed multiple times due to Nash/Gasol getting destroyed off the high P&R, compromising our perimeter defense, thus leading to the numerous looks from the the Wizards beyond the arc.

 

Dwight Howard didn't allow that to happen through 3 quarters, the Wizards were stifled in the half-court because Dwight actually knows how to defend the high P&R. Once he checked back in, Wall and Ariza were in rhythm, the Wizards had stolen momentum, and they rode it out to finish the game.

 

Right, I understand your breakdown of how we lost a lead when Pau was on the floor. And I do agree a lot of that was his fault. 

 

I'd like you to respond to the second part of the 4th quarter when Pau was on the bench and we still were outscored with Dwight and the rest of our "best" starters.



#88 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:00 PM

Just out of curiosity - because I think we're almost at a point in this season where it's time to reminisce - do you think Pau (and conversely this Lakers team) could have been legitimately effective if we would have gotten Phil back 5 games in?

 

Pau would not have been effective. It's a mental issue with him dating back to the 2011 postseason. He doesn't have the same aggressiveness on the offensive end, and it's not due to either Bynum or Howard. That excuse has been played out SO many times it isn't even funny. Neither Bynum nor Howard is Shaq-sized to the point where there is zero room for Pau on the low block. The issue is that ever since the 2nd half of the 2011 season, Pau has fallen in love with the jumper (even off post-ups) instead of dominating his opposition on the low block. His defense was always lackluster, but it was never THIS bad. He doesn't even play the angles anymore or contest the ball. Sometimes he simply puts his arm up and the opposing player just drives and finishes right over him.

 

The team as a whole would have been much better, especially because Phil would have established some defensive system for us to utilize. Nash would be a perfect triangle 1 with his shooting ability, Dwight Howard is a far better passer than what little we've utilized him this season (and would have fit w/no issues running either high or low post sets in the triangle), and Kobe is Kobe. We'd need to make a few trades to shore up holes elsewhere on the roster, but I believe we would have been much better.

 

D'Antoni is a disaster. I was more optimistic about the hiring than some people here, because I had assumed he'd hire a defensive coordinator, but that wasn't the case. I also overestimated his ability to come up with an offensive system to utilize the pieces on this team. He's been an utter failure on offense, defense, and managing rotations. More or less Mike Brown 2.0.



#89 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:07 PM

Pau would not have been effective. It's a mental issue with him dating back to the 2011 postseason. He doesn't have the same aggressiveness on the offensive end, and it's not due to either Bynum or Howard. That excuse has been played out SO many times it isn't even funny. Neither Bynum nor Howard is Shaq-sized to the point where there is zero room for Pau on the low block. The issue is that ever since the 2nd half of the 2011 season, Pau has fallen in love with the jumper (even off post-ups) instead of dominating his opposition on the low block. His defense was always lackluster, but it was never THIS bad. He doesn't even play the angles anymore or contest the ball. Sometimes he simply puts his arm up and the opposing player just drives and finishes right over him.

 

The team as a whole would have been much better, especially because Phil would have established some defensive system for us to utilize. Nash would be a perfect triangle 1 with his shooting ability, Dwight Howard is a far better passer than what little we've utilized him this season (and would have fit w/no issues running either high or low post sets in the triangle), and Kobe is Kobe. We'd need to make a few trades to shore up holes elsewhere on the roster, but I believe we would have been much better.

 

D'Antoni is a disaster. I was more optimistic about the hiring than some people here, because I had assumed he'd hire a defensive coordinator, but that wasn't the case. I also overestimated his ability to come up with an offensive system to utilize the pieces on this team. He's been an utter failure on offense, defense, and managing rotations. More or less Mike Brown 2.0.

 

Yeah I agree with most of that. Obviously Pau's not the player he was during our championship run, but I can't help but think he would have certainly been significantly more effective than what he is under MDA.

 

The saddest thing is most of us knew that brining Phil back was pretty much the only way our situation was salvageable. 

 

I guess just try to stay positive and hope that:

 

1) Pau starts playing better and gets in good shape health-wise (even Majesty will admit that Pau's capable of playing better than he has).

 

2) MDA does SOMETHING to tweak his offense to make our starting 5 effective when Pau's on the floor.

 

We should all try to be more positive and supportive instead of ripping in to each other - we're all Laker fans after all. It may be true that Pau's done, but what good does it do to use him as a punching bag? 



#90 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:08 PM

Right, I understand your breakdown of how we lost a lead when Pau was on the floor. And I do agree a lot of that was his fault. 

 

I'd like you to respond to the second part of the 4th quarter when Pau was on the bench and we still were outscored with Dwight and the rest of our "best" starters.

 

Momentum.

 

Until that 18-7 run, neither John Wall nor Ariza had burned us too badly. I think Ariza only had 6 or 8 points at that point, not sure if Wall was even in double digits by then. However, once streaky players like them get going, it's not easy to stop them. John Wall is limited offensively unless he's making his mid-range jumpers. Once the Nash/Gasol P&R coverage fell apart, Wall started making a few more jumpers, got into rhythm, and burned us the rest of the game. He knew at that point that Nash had no chance of guarding him one-on-one, so the Wizards kept running the same high P&R play dragging out the 4 man this time (either MWP/Jamison) and keeping Howard down low. Wall either drove and finished, kicked the ball out (where they would swing it to the open man), or found the roll man. The roll man would then either finish themselves or pass off to Dwight's man if Dwight came out to give help coverage.

 

Once the Wizards got going, they fed off Wall and Ariza the rest of the game and we couldn't handle their surge at the end. What should have been an easy victory midway through the 3rd turned into a horrible loss due to that 5 minute stretch where we gave the game away.

 

We fell apart due to a combination of Gasol's ineffectiveness on both ends of the floor during that stretch as well as D'Antoni's horrible rotations. It's nothing new though, both Gasol and D'Antoni have been hurting this team all year long. Without Kobe Bryant saving us earlier this month, we'd probably still be below .500.



#91 Majesty

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:09 PM

We figured out a working offense.

The problem was we stopped using it when we were down 2 and not trying to blow the game.


Cause I remember the Wizards kept trying to go on a comeback run in the 3rd and we kept pushing the lead back to 10 and beyond.Z

Then Gasol came in and suddenly the lead pushing evaporated and went to the other side.

Then when we came back in all momentum was on the Wizard's side and we were trying to dig ourselves out of a hole.


It started with Gasol and ended with disaster.


Thing is, even if we did have Phil, Gasol would get beaten the same way he always has.


Remember the Dallas series? Pau never switching off pick and rolls causing players to collapse and drive and dish for three and the same play over and over and OVER again? THAT is what happened last night and it happened with Phil too and Gasol years ago.


It showed that no matter who the coach is when Gasol doesn't even try on defense the same result happens.

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#92 DaSmoothOperator

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:13 PM

Hey are yall forgetting this was "at home" and against the "mighty Wizards"! I am laughing at those of you proclaiming rings with DHowards arrival, I see spaces available on Fiqueroa case you haven't looked, lol, not that blaming anyone person will do anything but Pau isn't even in the "shape" he was in before this injury so now he's even worse on D as if that were even possible, common man switch up when Howard goes to block. This is getting pathetic hoping for a victory vs the Wiz. Lets say by any chance that the playoffs are on the future menu, guess whose getting served? Lose to the Suns and the Wiz this is not watchable, its actually painful.

#93 Majesty

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:15 PM


The saddest thing is most of us knew that brining Phil back was pretty much the only way our situation was salvageable.


1) Pau starts playing better and gets in good shape health-wise (even Majesty will admit that Pau's capable of playing better than he has).

2) MDA does SOMETHING to tweak his offense to make our starting 5 effective when Pau's on the floor.



It was salvaged with D'antoni, I mean people forget so quickly we just went on a 2 month run with the guy that got us into the playoffs. But its whatever.


1) Yes Pau could play better but even when in shape it was still a once every 7 games effort.

2) D'antoni HAS changed his offense which is why Nash no longer ball dominates. And D'antoni has tried to run specific plays for Pau and Dwight in the post.

But when D'antoni says "double post" and Pau hears it as "back up to the three point line and let them double Dwight" it's on Pau.

D'antoni could tell Pau all day to do it but he refuses to listen unless he's starting center.

This is why(especially after Gasol's comments about asking for a trade if Dwight is here and starting) next year are why he got benched.


He feels like playing to Dwight or double post with Dwight is a "sacrifice" for him as he has said so.

And when Gasol has that kind of mentality about it, right or wrong, nothing D'antoni says is gonna make him start trying and when it comes down to it, eventually neither could Phil. And that is the problem.

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#94 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:16 PM

Maybe you're right Majesty, anyway... it doesn't matter. The team sans Pau is still getting knocked out in 5 games in the first round.

 

Successfully integrating Pau was our only hope to make any noise. It's also still early. This was one game with Pau out-of-shape playing only 20 minutes. If playoffs come around and nothing has changed then I'll concede. But putting Gasol back on the bench in street clothes isn't going to help us win a championship. That's what's so infuriating, instead of talking about ways we can become a better team by integrating Pau, all everyone does is [expletive].



#95 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:19 PM

It was salvaged with D'antoni, I mean people forget so quickly we just went on a 2 month run with the guy that got us into the playoffs. But its whatever.


1) Yes Pau could play better but even when in shape it was still a once every 7 games effort.

2) D'antoni HAS changed his offense which is why Nash no longer ball dominates. And D'antoni has tried to run specific plays for Pau and Dwight in the post.

But when D'antoni says "double post" and Pau hears it as "back up to the three point line and let them double Dwight" it's on Pau.

D'antoni could tell Pau all day to do it but he refuses to listen unless he's starting center.

This is why(especially after Gasol's comments about asking for a trade if Dwight is here and starting) next year are why he got benched.


He feels like playing to Dwight or double post with Dwight is a "sacrifice" for him as he has said so.

And when Gasol has that kind of mentality about it, right or wrong, nothing D'antoni says is gonna make him start trying and when it comes down to it, eventually neither could Phil. And that is the problem.

 

We're beating a dead horse... but barely scraping into the 8th playoff spot isn't "salvaging" the season. This is Los Angeles. MDA has been an unmitigated disaster. With Phil here 5 games in it might have been contenders under the right circumstances. We'll never know.



#96 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:25 PM

Momentum.

 

Until that 18-7 run, neither John Wall nor Ariza had burned us too badly. I think Ariza only had 6 or 8 points at that point, not sure if Wall was even in double digits by then. However, once streaky players like them get going, it's not easy to stop them. John Wall is limited offensively unless he's making his mid-range jumpers. Once the Nash/Gasol P&R coverage fell apart, Wall started making a few more jumpers, got into rhythm, and burned us the rest of the game. He knew at that point that Nash had no chance of guarding him one-on-one, so the Wizards kept running the same high P&R play dragging out the 4 man this time (either MWP/Jamison) and keeping Howard down low. Wall either drove and finished, kicked the ball out (where they would swing it to the open man), or found the roll man. The roll man would then either finish themselves or pass off to Dwight's man if Dwight came out to give help coverage.

 

Once the Wizards got going, they fed off Wall and Ariza the rest of the game and we couldn't handle their surge at the end. What should have been an easy victory midway through the 3rd turned into a horrible loss due to that 5 minute stretch where we gave the game away.

 

We fell apart due to a combination of Gasol's ineffectiveness on both ends of the floor during that stretch as well as D'Antoni's horrible rotations. It's nothing new though, both Gasol and D'Antoni have been hurting this team all year long. Without Kobe Bryant saving us earlier this month, we'd probably still be below .500.

 

Even so, if we can't beat a Wizards team when John Wall and Trevor Ariza get hot, we're doomed - and not because of Pau. We should be able to come back from being down 2 no matter how hot anyone gets.

 

Look at Miami - you think there going to lose in the 4th quarter because Wall and Ariza get hot? Bottom line is we're just not that good. Fools gold. Unless we play perfectly with the right system/strategy we can't compete at the highest level.

 

It just pisses me off how everyone makes excuses and blames Pau when the truth was we lost to the Wizards with Pau on the bench.



#97 Majesty

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:26 PM

Maybe you're right Majesty, anyway... it doesn't matter. The team sans Pau is still getting knocked out in 5 games in the first round.

Successfully integrating Pau was our only hope to make any noise. It's also still early. This was one game with Pau out-of-shape playing only 20 minutes. If playoffs come around and nothing has changed then I'll concede. But putting Gasol back on the bench in street clothes isn't going to help us win a championship. That's what's so infuriating, instead of talking about ways we can become a better team by integrating Pau, all everyone does is [expletive].



Let me put this in simpler terms.

Due to Gasol's mentality and ego about everything.

The ONLY way he'll be successfully integrated into the starting lineup is if he's starting over Dwight. And that is NOT going to happen. Putting Gasol anywhere else means you aren't gonna get full effort out of him.

And my point about Phil is that even with him as the coach, Gasol would still be a problem in the exact same ways he is now. It wouldn't have changed his mentality that playing to Dwight is a "sacrifice" on his part and that he doesn't want to be here oif Dwight is starting next year.

That doesn't change with Phil here. It also doesn't fix Gasol;ks inability defensively which was exploited to full in the Dallas series years ago when we were swept.


Gasol would have always been a liability no matter who was coaching. That's my point on that.

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:29 PM

Successfully integrating Pau was our only hope to make any noise. It's also still early.  That's what's so infuriating, instead of talking about ways we can become a better team by integrating Pau, all everyone does is [expletive].

There's only so much you can try to do to integrate Pau, but at the end of the day, he has to integrate himself and all season long for the most part, he seemingly hasn't been willing to do so. You can make all the excuses for him you want, but at the end of the day, he's had countless opportunities to do so and simply hasn't. There seems to be a serious lack of passion & fire in him. Either he doesn't realize how much he can be the difference of either holding this team back or taking them potentially to the next level, or he simply cannot do it anymore and has lost most of the confidence in himself.


yo.


#99 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:31 PM

I don't know if that true Majesty. You say with Pau it's ego and its mental. Phil's the zen master. He might have been able to bring the most out of Pau.

 

Also, with the triangle and Phil's methodical approach, A lot of Nash and Gasol's defensive liabilities would have been masked instead of exponentiated.



#100 Cato

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Posted March 23, 2013 - 01:33 PM

There's only so much you can try to do to integrate Pau, but at the end of the day, he has to integrate himself and all season long for the most part, he seemingly hasn't been willing to do so. You can make all the excuses for him you want, but at the end of the day, he's had countless opportunities to do so and simply hasn't. There seems to be a serious lack of passion & fire in him. Either he doesn't realize how much he can be the difference of either holding this team back or taking them potentially to the next level, or he simply cannot do it anymore and has lost most of the confidence in himself.

 

Ya I don't disagree. Whether it's MDA or Pau figuring things out by himself, the point remains, if Pau isn't effective we're going to be bounced in the first round.






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