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#1 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 01:40 AM

Lakers were actually down just five points midway through the 4th, after being down nearly 20...but then the Thunder just started to focus solely on Bryant, and the rest of the team collapsed.

Dwight didn't get one shot in the second half. That's ridiculous. He was 1-7 going into the half.

Nash was also 1-7 at halftime, but came out in the third on a mission, disappeared completely in the fourth (one shot).

Check this out: game was unofficially over at the four-minute mark, when Ibaka hit a corner three (and I threw the remote). From the start of the fourth, to that point...

Artest 3PT shot: missed (11:07)
Meeks 3PT shot: missed (10:43)
Artest 3PT shot: made (9:23)
Blake jumper: missed (8:40)
Bryant 3PT shot: missed (8:07)
Artest jumper: made (7:52)
Bryant layup: made (7:17)
Artest 3PT shot: made (6:44)
Nash 3PT shot: made (6:14)
Artest 3PT shot: missed (5:17)
Bryant jumper: missed (4:43)
Nash 3PT shot: missed (4:05)
Artest layup: missed (3:52)

Eight threes in eight minutes. Artest took six of our 13 shot attempts. Kobe and Nash took a combined five, Howard zero.

There's nothing wrong with this offense? Just because we score points and are probably still in the top 10 in ORtg doesn't mean we aren't having problems on that end of the court.

Ron Artest is NOT a legitimate second scoring option on this team. He takes more shots per game than Nash and Dwight, and nearly as many as Gasol when he was healthy (behind by 0.2 shots per game).

How much more crystal-clear does it have to get that this coach of ours is an idiot? D'Antoni wanted to bring in Raja Bell? Of course he did! There's another five or six threes jacked up every night.

We cannot defend, and that won't change because we don't have a defensive-minded coach, a horrible defender in Nash, an incredibly-bad bench in regards to total and individual defense, and Ron Artest is declining in that area as well. So, the one thing we SHOULD be able to do, that SHOULD come natural to us...scoring the ball...needs attention.

Without Kobe facilitating, we have nothing but a PG, beyond what he was during his MVP seasons, trying to hit shooters in the chest with passes. We have Marcin Gortat down low, a collection of guys who think it's okay to fire airball threes and cause fast breaks, and Kobe turning into Shannon Brown each time Nash has the ball. It's the same Phoenix Suns team that Nash led to a fishing pond back in April 2012.

So hard to watch these guys fall to the top eight teams in the West...does it really matter who we play, at this point? If Howard isn't going to P&R with Nash, if Nash is going to feed shooters all game long, if Artest is going to try and facilitate off the dribble OR play video game basketball until his shot is blocked, and if Kobe is going to be the only one on the floor that wants to contribute EVERY SINGLE QUARTER of the game...we are no better than your typical lottery team.



#2 bfc1125roy

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 01:43 AM

Lakers were actually down just five points midway through the 4th, after being down nearly 20...but then the Thunder just started to focus solely on Bryant, and the rest of the team collapsed.

Dwight didn't get one shot in the second half. That's ridiculous. He was 1-7 going into the half.

Nash was also 1-7 at halftime, but came out in the third on a mission, disappeared completely in the fourth (one shot).

Check this out: game was unofficially over at the four-minute mark, when Ibaka hit a corner three (and I threw the remote). From the start of the fourth, to that point...

Artest 3PT shot: missed (11:07)
Meeks 3PT shot: missed (10:43)
Artest 3PT shot: made (9:23)
Blake jumper: missed (8:40)
Bryant 3PT shot: missed (8:07)
Artest jumper: made (7:52)
Bryant layup: made (7:17)
Artest 3PT shot: made (6:44)
Nash 3PT shot: made (6:14)
Artest 3PT shot: missed (5:17)
Bryant jumper: missed (4:43)
Nash 3PT shot: missed (4:05)
Artest layup: missed (3:52)

Eight threes in eight minutes. Artest took six of our 13 shot attempts. Kobe and Nash took a combined five, Howard zero.

There's nothing wrong with this offense? Just because we score points and are probably still in the top 10 in ORtg doesn't mean we aren't having problems on that end of the court.

Ron Artest is NOT a legitimate second scoring option on this team. He takes more shots per game than Nash and Dwight, and nearly as many as Gasol when he was healthy (behind by 0.2 shots per game).

How much more crystal-clear does it have to get that this coach of ours is an idiot? D'Antoni wanted to bring in Raja Bell? Of course he did! There's another five or six threes jacked up every night.

We cannot defend, and that won't change because we don't have a defensive-minded coach, a horrible defender in Nash, an incredibly-bad bench in regards to total and individual defense, and Ron Artest is declining in that area as well. So, the one thing we SHOULD be able to do, that SHOULD come natural to us...scoring the ball...needs attention.

Without Kobe facilitating, we have nothing but a PG, beyond what he was during his MVP seasons, trying to hit shooters in the chest with passes. We have Marcin Gortat down low, a collection of guys who think it's okay to fire airball threes and cause fast breaks, and Kobe turning into Shannon Brown each time Nash has the ball. It's the same Phoenix Suns team that Nash led to a fishing pond back in April 2012.

So hard to watch these guys fall to the top eight teams in the West...does it really matter who we play, at this point? If Howard isn't going to P&R with Nash, if Nash is going to feed shooters all game long, if Artest is going to try and facilitate off the dribble OR play video game basketball until his shot is blocked, and if Kobe is going to be the only one on the floor that wants to contribute EVERY SINGLE QUARTER of the game...we are no better than your typical lottery team.

 

Well said. I saw pretty much exactly what you said on display tonight. The lack of effort on the team is a problem, but it peeves me that people can't see just how badly Mike D'Antoni is coaching this team. Yeah we're old, but so were the 2011 Mavs. The Lakers just need an offense and defense that plays to their strengths, not a bunch of scrubs jacking up 3's leading to fast breaks that then really exposes the slowness and age of the team. 

 

In fact I'm actually interested in seeing how Artests FGA/min correlate to the Lakers wins. Maybe if I can gather that data quickly I'll take a look. I hate seeing him take stupid shots, when he [expletive]ed up that fast break in the fourth quarter I was about ready to rip my hair out. 


Edited by bfc1125roy, March 06, 2013 - 01:46 AM.


#3 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 01:56 AM

In fact I'm actually interested in seeing how Artests FGA/min correlate to the Lakers wins. Maybe if I can gather that data quickly I'll take a look. I hate seeing him take stupid shots, when he [expletive]ed up that fast break in the fourth quarter I was about ready to rip my hair out. 

Probably won't find much, because Kobe usually goes into hero mode if he shoots too much AND when he's not shooting enough (basically forces him into it), so it's probably a similar number of W/L.



#4 Chad

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:00 AM

Don't break your remote control on this team. I hope Artest/WorldDumbshots is gone after this year, too bad we can amnesty our coach too.


Edited by Chad, March 06, 2013 - 02:02 AM.

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#5 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:00 AM

Yeah, not much of a difference:

 

When he takes 10 or less shots: 12-13 record

When he takes 11 or more shots: 17-17 record

 

The point stands, though, because we're having to rely on Bryant FAR too much, Howard isn't getting his touches (which means he's not getting the other team in foul trouble, not freeing up shooters), and Nash has no idea if he's a PG or a two-guard.



#6 BasketballIQ

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:13 AM

Kobe is some of the problem...it's not even D'Anton's offense.

 

Some of the LONG three pointers, with no ball movement, very little dribbling,the definition iof a bail-the-defense out type of shot.

 

I don't think D'Antoni wants ONLY three pointers, but when no one attempts to go inside( especially against Ibaka) then you have to place blame on the primary ball-handlers which falls on Kobe and Nash.

 

 

First half was very balanced FGAs, and overall good offensive production, same in the second half but we didn't try to involve Dwight, we kept shooting jumpers and we played no defense.

 

 

Is this a championship offense, of course not...is this ALL on x's and o's...of course not



#7 DanishLakerFan

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:16 AM

Always nice with a small rant - especially from RD.

 

I agree on most, but i think we still have a chance to make a push if we stick to a few principles:

 

Do not allow Metta to dribble to ball at all. He is half-decent from 3 if his feet is set. Off the dribble he is a disaster.

Run the Pick-and-roll with Nash and Howard. This should be our bread and butter.

Kobe should ease off the 3s and focus on post-ups as well as his off-the-ball game.

Forget the offensive boards and get home on defense - unless we have good position.

Clog the paint and let other teams beat us on contested jumpers. No layups.

 

I would have liked to see them make a move at the trade deadline as well. Another perimeter defender or a 3pt specialist would have been nice.



#8 bfc1125roy

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:21 AM

Yeah, not much of a difference:

 

When he takes 10 or less shots: 12-13 record

When he takes 11 or more shots: 17-17 record

 

The point stands, though, because we're having to rely on Bryant FAR too much, Howard isn't getting his touches (which means he's not getting the other team in foul trouble, not freeing up shooters), and Nash has no idea if he's a PG or a two-guard.

 

Good point actually, I didn't consider the other side of the issue.

 

But either way, it's [expletive]ing ridiculous that D'Antoni is using Artest like Shawn Marion and letting him be shot happy. Steve Nash needs to be the player we saw in the 3rd quarter and be the shooter that stretches the floor instead of Ron.

 

And regarding Howard, I've seen the team try to get him into post ups a few times actually. But the piss poor spacing results in turnovers. The few times it didn't, though, OKC had to foul him each time, and as a result Perk picked up 1 or 2 quick ones, along with Ibaka and Collison. 



#9 Majesty

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:24 AM

What were the offensive stats of our wins?

Not that im disagreeing but id like to see some of the offensive breakdowns during our win streak rather than the one significant loss.

There's. A certain formula that takes place when this team wins and when it loses, and some shots fall where they may.

If Metta shoots as much as Kobe the team loses naturally, however he hasn't been that way for the last 5 games and had shot an average of around 4 threes a game and was shooting 48 percent from the field and Nash and Howard have been pick and rolling(as well as Blake and Howard) and finding better shots as well.

Im not gonna pick apart the methods in one loss and say its been that way for the last 2 weeks, because it hasn't.

Its just another one of those cause and effect scenarios.

Such as when Kobe has to shoot so and so times the team struggles and he shoots so and so times because no one else is hitting their shots or moving off ball etc, it's a cause and effect scenario that won't win games.

But it's not winning games not because Kobe is shooting so much(in that scenario) but why he's shooting so much(people not moving).

But if that only happens one game out of 5(and we won 4 of them), and in the other 4 games the ball moved well, others played in a controlled pace and people moved off ball then I'm not gonna say the one loss that Kobe had to go ballistic in an attempt to win is "how" we're running things, because if we ran it that way all 5 games we wouldn't have won 4.

So that's where I disagree. But I agree when you say "if metta has to shoot this many times, and kobe has to do this and do that.". You're right, it's a losing formula. But at the same time during our win streak it's not a formula I saw too often and only occurs when the ball isn't moving, people aren't hitting, no energy is happening etc.

So im not going to act like today and the mistakes down the stretch is indictive of the majority of our playstyle lately because it hasn't been. If it had been we wouldn't have won our games.

Its a cause and effect when guys aren't playing well. It breaks down into a style you mention, but its not the primary go to.

So im not going to act like metta's role hasn't been diminished(Clark is now the 3 and the ball seems in his hands to stretch more while Metta attacks inside. But TODAY Clark had about 7 turnovers in the first half, that's a factor too), or that Nash hasn't been good off ball lately, or that Nash/Blake and Howard haven't been playing the pick and roll well lately. Because they have. Just because it didn't happen in one loss doesn't mean it isn't going to happen a majority of the time. So that's where i disagree with you.

If we go another 4 games back to playing the way that has got us our wins as of late i chalk it up as exactly what it was.

Im not going to watch 4 wins and us play a certain way and during a loss get away from that and assume that all the progress or roles ive seen in the other games suddenly evaporated. It didn't.

So i agree with all your problems with this loss. But these problems haven't existed in our wins, and we've been winning more than losing so unless we go on another deep losing streak I don't expect to see it too often much anymore.

I only expect it when we're playing without a rhythm and as a cause and effect of everything else. Just as I expect Kobe to have to go into ballistic mode when the same things happen. But if all that only happens once every 5 games and we continuously go 4-1 during those stretches, ill take it.

Edited by Majesty, March 06, 2013 - 02:28 AM.

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#10 dukecityspecialist

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:45 AM

ive been saying to myself over the past few games,were starting to look more and more like an offense that dantoni likes to run instead of nash playing off the ball and kb facilitating,ive noticed weve been trying to run n gun with some of these younger teams  which is just pain stuipd,this team keeps going back and forth within each game trying to find their identity and its is absolutely frustrating to say the least,yeah kobe is having a hot streak with scoring  but how many [expletive]ing times must we rely on him to bail us out during crunch time? why n the [expletive] is nash back in phx pg mode and why n the [expletive] do we use dwight so minimal?????? this coach is a [expletive]in idiot,his system doesnt work ,he doesnt preach defense,damn im pissed,we barely beat [expletive]ty teams but get run out the buikding with good teams,



#11 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 02:46 AM

The statistical analysis of our wins since the all-star break...is that Kobe has been required to do FAR too much, and Howard is almost as effective as Andrew Bogut on the offensive end because of the lack of spacing.

 

It does no good going back to pick stats, because of various reasons:

 

1) We simply can't beat good teams in the West.

2) Our offense is inconsistent, so even if we play good for 36 minutes, we slump for 12 minutes and blow leads.

3) We go far too many minutes playing incredibly bad defense, no matter how good OR bad our offense is.

 

 

If Metta shoots as much as Kobe the team loses naturally, however he hasn't been that way for the last 5 games and had shot an average of around 4 threes a game and was shooting 48 percent from the field and Nash and Howard have been pick and rolling(as well as Blake and Howard) and finding better shots as well.

Doesn't matter.  That's like the stat about Kobe hitting 30+ points, and us losing (or him taking X amount of shots and us losing, whatever it was).  It didn't mean anything, at all.  You acknowledge this in your post.

 

I don't care about our win against the Minnesota Timberwolves.  Sure, those wins count because they get us into the playoffs, but we can't evaluate our team based on what we do against poor, dysfunctional teams that rely on JJ Barea and Luke Ridnour to keep up with us.

 

The map should read that we need to construct a team around two players: Kobe and Dwight.  We aren't.  We are looking at Nash facilitating his offense, and Kobe ISO.  Won't work...and I've said this, and will continue saying it, until I'm red in the face.  No part of Nash's offense will work FOR Kobe Bryant.  None of it will work FOR Gasol.  Most of it won't work for Howard (aside from P&R, which has NOT been utilized as much as you say, because Howard can barely get to the rim).

 

At one point, we were ranked 11th on the defensive end...with a losing record, maybe 5-6 games from .500 (don't remember, but I do remember bringing it up to a friend).  We've been ranked in the top half of the league on the offensive end for most of the year...and almost always because we score our points quicker than a lot of other teams.  That statistical analysis, over the course of this season, would do no good...because quite frankly, we shouldn't be under .500.

 

But we ARE under .500, and it's because we cannot stay consistent.  We have no plan.  We have no map.  This team has two primary scoring options and a facilitate-first PG who can shoot better than most others in the league...and with that, we had a PF who could hit 16-foot jumpers and pass very well.  Didn't matter.

 

A head coach is paid to come in and figure out how to run a basketball team...both on offense and defense (if he needs assistants for one or the other, that's on him).  

 

Can anyone tell me what offense we run?

 

Can anyone else tell me our defensive strategy?



#12 Majesty

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 03:01 AM

The offense you run is as you say, Kobe the main ball handler and finding people off the iso that they leave open(like Nash) or it's Nash pnring with Dwight or looking to create off the dribble,though Kobe iso and create for others is what's happened more often.

Now I will say one thing else, we do have a 7 footer that can hit 16 footers, actually with that guy we beat OKC.

There's a different kind of defense that OKC can play against us but its the few plays we "can" run effectively with Gasol and Howard on the court that actually do work against OKC, it's because of this that when we'd switch out Gasol and Howard and the one or two plays they'd have together, it screwed OKC's spacing and required them to play a different type of defense and eases the pressure in the high post, Kobe even mentioned this tonight.

Our defensive strategy or idea seems to be something like this.

"When we're in the halfcourt we defend fine. When we turnover the ball or rush our shots the other teams get out and run and thats where we pay the most."

So their strategy seems to be that when their defense is set they are hard to score against, and that when they try to rush their offense, put up bad shots or turn it over they have problems. So strategy is ;don't rush on offense, limit turnovers, be back on D when the shot goes up.


That's their defensive strategy. Now our defense HAS risen to 13th in the league(from 22nd) and 2 spots off when we were 11th. However tonight it wasn't as prevalent, it was prevalent in slowing them down in the second half and cutting it close(till Nash missed a wide open 3 and Ibaka hit one...grr!)
But it wasn't prevalent in forving turnovers.

Metta and Dwight have been the cause of other teams turnovers in the halfcourt with their active hands. Not happening tonight(the thunder only had 2 turnovers) but I wonder if that had to do with dwight hurting his arm again in the first quarter(and also why he couldn't hit a shot after)

Quite coincidentally... He hurt his shoulder, goes 1-7 from the field..but 4-8 from the free throw line.. Go figure.


But the other thing we are unsure about is with his screwed up shoulder bothering him(badly in his own words) if Dwight really would have scored more. Evidence has shown that when he hurts his arm he isnt as aggressive offensively even with his touches.

What I do know is that Metta did score 10 points in the 4th quarter and was one of the reasons it even got close, can we without a shadow of a doubt say if his shots went to Dwight instead that Dwight would have scored, and if not would we have even gotten close?

But meh i dont want to deal with those scehmatics, we could go back and forth all day on that lol like saying what if Nash hits the 3 and cuts it to 3 and OKC calls a timeout, does Ibaka get a corner 3 from it? Etc

Edited by Majesty, March 06, 2013 - 03:06 AM.

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#13 Anautikus

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 03:09 AM

A head coach is paid to come in and figure out how to run a basketball team...both on offense and defense (if he needs assistants for one or the other, that's on him).  

 

Can anyone tell me what offense we run?

 

Can anyone else tell me our defensive strategy?

 

Offense: Kobe System.

Defense: Kobe, no system.

Coaching: Kobe System.

When we win: Praise Kobe System.

When we lose: Blame Kobe, blame his system.

 

Mike D'Antoni, everyone!  :clap2:


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#KobeSystem


#14 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 03:14 AM

Now our defense HAS risen to 13th in the league(from 22nd) and 2 spots off when we were 11th.

Our defensive rating is 21st in the league, not 13th.

 

As I said earlier, ORTG and DRTG don't mean too much, so why not dive into it a bit?

 

We allow 45.6% FG (17th) and 35.9% 3PT (16th), at 101.4 PPG (24th).  We are 28th in oppTO, 14th in blocks, 20th in steals.  There is absolutely no way that translates into the 13th-best defense in the league.

 

Halfcourt defense?  Howard isn't getting to the rim in time to cover for Nash.  Kobe has to ball-watch and fails to cover ground out to the perimeter.  Ron cannot stay in front of anyone these days, and is late to the three.  P&R defense is bad.  Gasol doesn't even try to contest anything at the rim, and would rather stand with his hands up.  Jamison, Meeks, Blake, Nash, Gasol, Ebanks...give us absolutely NOTHING on the defensive end, both physically and strategically (ex. funneling).

 

It's all fool's gold.  We are lucky to have Kobe Bryant playing so well, and playing 38 minutes a night...because if we had last year's Kobe, this team would be thinking about next season already.



#15 Majesty

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 03:21 AM

And if we had last year's Dwight we wouldn't be fighting for .500 ;)

However I do want to see Gasol back at his bench 5 but still playing 30 minutes a game role. Seemed like it was starting to work well before Howard went out, and then when Gasol went out before Howard got back.. Strange how that happened.

However as it stands right now we "should" be playoff bound by the time Gasol gets back.

We "have" been funneling to Dwight a lot better than earlier in the season. Still lots of room to improve, however we are beating the 4-8 teams in the west and the 3-8 teams in the east, least i feel we can at this point. At this point the way we are playing i don't think we're a lottery team, we're playing more like a middle of the pack team, somewhere between 5th to 7th seed.

And while it may be some fools gold in terms of us, its fort knox in terms of golden state and utah.

So we shall see where we wind up. That said I DO want to see improvement going into April and Gasol should be back by then.

Edited by Majesty, March 06, 2013 - 03:26 AM.

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#16 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 03:30 AM

And if we had last year's Dwight we wouldn't be fighting for .500 ;)

Of course we wouldn't have to, but then Mike Brown would likely be our head coach right now.

 

Dwight would still be much easier to defend here, though, because we can't spread the floor.  It's far too easy to front a player of his caliber when you have backside help just a couple of steps away.  Since the pass has to go over the head, it's far slower than a bullet through the teeth of the defense, and it allows others time to come over and quickly double Howard before he even knows where he's at.

 

Teams aren't as afraid of Dwight when he's not in his offense, and surrounded by shooters who rely on him...no matter his health.  So, it would still be up to the coach, and Nash, to figure out how to change that.

 

Nash would ultimately have to take on the same role I've stated over and over again, to be a threat from beyond the arc, playing off of Dwight in both P&R situations and in Howard post-ups.  Kobe carries the torch every other way, and we stop trying to run anything else involving D'Antoni and Nash's idea of an effective offense.



#17 5thDroog

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 04:21 AM

i'm actually more interested if Brown stayed for at least 20 more games before we let him go. Because our set defense is good, it's the turnovers that are killing us.



#18 Majesty

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 04:22 AM

The role you state for Nash seems to be the role he's settling into. He seems to be scoring more off the picks he gets and also is an off-ball threat from beyond the arc. I'm sure he's also close to your 17-5 prediction that he'd probably get to.

He isn't playing off dwight as much in the PnR but it has been more as of late MUCH more than the beginning of the seaso,m. But what's missing is Dwight finding Nash for open 3s, 9 times out of 10 its off a screen or from Kobe that Nash finds his threes.

So perhaps some more 4 out 1 in with Dwight to Nash is required.

And in terms of what we run currently not being enough Nash and you appear to be on the same page. As Nash put it 2 games ago after a blowout win.

Nash: "Our offense consists of either me pick and rolling or Kobe iso'ing and us getting open shots that way. But we aren't benefitting as much as we could be and should be from both of them. So we'll win games with it now, but it needs to get a lot better."

Interview is around here somewhere but Nash seems to share your sentiment on that aspect of things.

Though as I said, slowly but surely im seeing Dwight start to pick and roll nore with Nash as well as set off screens for Kobe and him getting easy looks at the basket because of it..or being a decoy for it(both of which Kobe used Shaq for)

But pretty much our offense is Nash playing off ball or off PnR wihth Dwight and Kobe doing everything else. But as Nash said, they aren't benefitting as much as they should and could yet so we'll have to see it improve, Nash seems to demand it while Kobe doesn't seem worried about it but Im sure he wouldn't disagree.

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores 


#19 Real Deal

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 04:45 AM

If Nash says the same things I do, I hope he realizes the Lakers have 21 games to go.



#20 dukecityspecialist

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 05:57 AM

11 assists the entire game? Wow






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