102 replies to this topic

[BasketballIQ]

So can we sign him to a one year, incentive laden deal?

Why would he sign that, have you ever seen that done to a MAX-Player in his prime?

 

 

Dude, get off your DH hate...leading the league in boards and climbing, defense has been the best on this team ALL season BY FAR, and getting better. And he is the second-leading scorer on this team...

 

 

Calm down and get off his back, its an illogical argument.

[last stand 2.0]

Shutup. He just finally showed up. Is that too much to ask?

how has this baby managed to not get banned. i thought we had minimum age requirement?

[last stand 2.0]

Never said he sucks.  I guess when you cant win the debate, you must resort to hyperbole.

 

the debate has to actually begin to win or lose. when you actually present an argument that is worth debating and isn't pointless and quite frankly ridiculous then the debate can begin. until then your argument deserves what it gets, hyperbole, jokes, and sometimes nothing at all

[last stand 2.0]

   Here's the thing, though.  If you know you have a coach that won't use Howard ( and his limited skills ) on offense, should you pay him $117M?

 

   Would you, in fact, win more games if you could swap him for, say, Nikola Vucevic ( I realize this isn't a workable straight trade, I'm speaking hypothetically ).  With Vucevic, you'd get 4 ppg less, 1 rpg less, and 1.5 bpg less... but you'd save about $21M/year in salary ( pre-tax ).  Plus, Vucevic is 22, and getting better, while Howard has added remarkably little to his game in 9 years -- a game which is not likely to age well at all.

 

   Could you replace 4 ppg, 1 rpg, and 1.5 bpg for $21M or less?  Obviously, you could.  Could the Lakers' roster benefit from $21M spent outside the center position? Again, yeah.

 

   These are the questions that matter.  Vucevic is just one example.

 

   I, for one, will be shocked if Howard is playing like a $23M player after he turns 30.  Locking yourself into long-term deals with older players of limited effectiveness is how you kill your team.

 

i would pay to see Real Deals face when he reads posts like this. yes vucevic's production in orlando where there isn't even really a 3rd scoring option let alone a 1st and gets single covered or ignored is on the same level as dwight who was a 1st option on a NBA finals team, 3 defensive player of the year awards and is still outproducing every center in basketball despite the fact that he wasn't supposed to be in a game until january

 

and if you think dwight hasn't improved his game in 9 years you clearly didn't watch dwight for his 9 year career

[last stand 2.0]

Stop the logic backed by facts! 

 

except is was so illogical that it was hilarious. 

[LakerGeezer]

Why would he sign that, have you ever seen that done to a MAX-Player in his prime?

 

 

Dude, get off your DH hate...leading the league in boards and climbing, defense has been the best on this team ALL season BY FAR, and getting better. And he is the second-leading scorer on this team...

 

 

Calm down and get off his back, its an illogical argument.

Of course we wont sign that deal, THAT IS THE POINT.  He will "only" take a 117m max deal from the Lakers.  Are you ready to bet the franchise for the next few year?  I'm not.  If you happen to find that illogical, I am just fine with it.  The guy is a shadow of the player he was a few years ago, and that player had a limited offensive game combined with a huge defensive presence.

 

In your world, anyone who refuses to assume that Dwight will be that player again must be 1. an idiot,  and/or 2. banned from this forum.

 

Make your best argument backed by facts (not just hope/ fantasy) and respect others' views. 

[flota]

Why should we pay D12 23 millions a year? Not even LeBron earns that Sign the guy but not overpay him

[Chad]

"The Lakers for the season have allowed 101.9 points per 100 possessions with Howard on the floor and 107.6 when he sits, per NBA.com. The first number would rank 12th overall; the second one would rank 28th. The Lakers also give up many more shots in the restricted area when Howard sits, and opponents have made a higher percentage of those shots."

[David Hillman]

i would pay to see Real Deals face when he reads posts like this. yes vucevic's production in orlando where there isn't even really a 3rd scoring option let alone a 1st and gets single covered or ignored is on the same level as dwight who was a 1st option on a NBA finals team, 3 defensive player of the year awards and is still outproducing every center in basketball despite the fact that he wasn't supposed to be in a game until january

 

and if you think dwight hasn't improved his game in 9 years you clearly didn't watch dwight for his 9 year career

 

   Yes, Dwight has a far more impressive resume than someone like Vucevic.  That is obviously beyond question.  However, at $23M, Howard will cost approximately 11 times as much, pre-tax.  I am not convinced that Howard is eleven times the player that someone like Vucevic is ( who by the way, went 20/20 on the Heat this evening ).  I am even less convinced that, over the next five years, the gap between those two particular players will not shrink.  To be fair, at some point, Vucevic or a similar young player would be due a raise following their rookie deal.

 

   I did not say that Howard has not improved at all.  I said he has added remarkably little to his game.  Statistically, he is almost exactly the same now, as he was in his second year... except his FT% declines almost every year.  He still has no range to speak of, and nothing that you would call a go-to move.  He's still a liability late in close games due to his free-throw shooting.  He's pretty damn raw for a guy looking to sign his last big contract.

[last stand 2.0]

Yes, Dwight has a far more impressive resume than someone like Vucevic. That is obviously beyond question. However, at $23M, Howard will cost approximately 11 times as much, pre-tax. I am not convinced that Howard is eleven times the player that someone like Vucevic is ( who by the way, went 20/20 on the Heat this evening ). I am even less convinced that, over the next five years, the gap between those two particular players will not shrink. To be fair, at some point, Vucevic or a similar young player would be due a raise following their rookie deal.

I did not say that Howard has not improved at all. I said he has added remarkably little to his game. Statistically, he is almost exactly the same now, as he was in his second year... except his FT% declines almost every year. He still has no range to speak of, and nothing that you would call a go-to move. He's still a liability late in close games due to his free-throw shooting. He's pretty damn raw for a guy looking to sign his last big contract.

He's statistically similar because he is off of major back surgery. Pre-injury he was not similar in any way. He was dropping 30 point games with ease in 2010. Let's not pretend he could do that early in his career

Right now he is weaker, less explosive and not in the same shape. His strength and conditioning are guarantees to return. Only his explosiveness is a question though it will improve, how much is the question

Vucevic is a solid player. That's it, and that's all he'll ever be. He's no better than a Marc gasol. He doesn't have Dwight's peak which should have begun now had it not been for his injury. Dwight Howard is a superstar. Superstars dont grow on trees. Especially big men.

[last stand 2.0]

Why should we pay D12 23 millions a year? Not even LeBron earns that Sign the guy but not overpay him

Lebron will be making that his next contract. He took a pay cut, however Lebron doesn't have an injury concern like Dwight so he could take that risk. But when Lebron opts out to sign a new deal it will be in that area. Guaranteed

[Michaelyumm]

I wonder how Clark and Duhon feel they're still his teammate lol!!

^ Like The Rock always said, "they must know their roles and shut their mouths".

[lakers1o1]

Unless you see things quoted by Dwight actually stated in an interview, you really shouldn't believe it.

 

I mean common... on a realistic note.  When has a single media outlet whether big or small... has quoted anything positive from Dwight this entire season?

 

Its all about publicity and getting readers/causing drama.

 

 

 

Plus... Dwight was correct.  The Magic were very fortunate to make it to the finals.  They had a handful of role players on that team and Dwight basically was the anchor on both offense and defense.  Not a single player on that team averaged  more than 6 assist a game and no one else averaged over 6 rebounds or 20 points aside from D12...

Edited by lakers1o1, March 06, 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[BasketballIQ]

You want to know why Kobe makes 30 million when 20 was max most guys were getting back then? Because he puts butts in seats, he is an ambassador to the NBA and Dwight has also been that type of player.

 

 

Dwight doesn't need to be the number one offensive option, because as a Laker, we aren't going to build another orlando... it won't be nelson, it will be Irving, or it won't be Turkoglu, it will be LeBron or Durant or whomever outgrows their small market. Dwight is the defensive Center who when in shape and fully healthy, with no labrum issues, even if the back is forever hindered his athletic ability( which he still possesses more than you seem to be giving him credit for), his 17/12 which is trending towards 17-14 is going to be excellent moving forward.

 

 

Stop worrying about then anyway, I mean after Magic we had Nick Van Exel as our franchise player, during Dr. Buss and Jerry West's tenure. So let's be a little realistic of what happens as you transition from a guy like Kobe and stop pretending like we could do something, we have little knowledge about .

[Majesty]

Yep and the only reason we couldn't transition as smoothly out of the Shaq Kobe era was because Shaq was unwilling to hand the reigns over graciously eventhough for the two post seasons(the second one for sure) it was obviously Kobe's team moving forward.

Had Shaq accepted this and gone out gracefully over the next 3 or so years the Lakers win 2 championships guaranteed.

The difference this time around is that Kobe seems absolutely willing to hand the reigns to Dwight and transition it into his team AFTER this year and teaching him everything he knows during it. I think Kobe is giving Dwight something he(Kobe) never got and by the time Kobe will be nearing the end of his basketball career we'll be bringing in Kyrie Irving in 2015 after already signing Carmelo or Love in 2014 so the transition won't be so brutal.

This is the difference with the Lakers and other organizations, no matter how many years down the road it is, the Lakers ALWAYS have a plan and it more often than not leads to "championship"

That is why if you are on the cusp of of being the Lakers franchise you take it.

[Cj2008nw]

I wonder how Clark and Duhon feel they're still his teammate lol!!

What have they done to make them somebodies?

[David Hillman]

What have they done to make them somebodies?

 

   Not much, but you still don't trash your teammates in public.

[BasketballIQ]

Yep and the only reason we couldn't transition as smoothly out of the Shaq Kobe era was because Shaq was unwilling to hand the reigns over graciously eventhough for the two post seasons(the second one for sure) it was obviously Kobe's team moving forward.

Had Shaq accepted this and gone out gracefully over the next 3 or so years the Lakers win 2 championships guaranteed.

The difference this time around is that Kobe seems absolutely willing to hand the reigns to Dwight and transition it into his team AFTER this year and teaching him everything he knows during it. I think Kobe is giving Dwight something he(Kobe) never got and by the time Kobe will be nearing the end of his basketball career we'll be bringing in Kyrie Irving in 2015 after already signing Carmelo or Love in 2014 so the transition won't be so brutal.

This is the difference with the Lakers and other organizations, no matter how many years down the road it is, the Lakers ALWAYS have a plan and it more often than not leads to "championship"

That is why if you are on the cusp of of being the Lakers franchise you take it.

I disagree, Shaq was in major decline , we would have had to replace Malone and Rick Fox, plus other guys like Horry had lost a step, Fisher would have still left.

 

Shaq was no longer as great as he was.... I think people FORGET that Shaq and Kobe played 7 years already and Shaq was 32+ when he left.

[Cj2008nw]

   Not much, but you still don't trash your teammates in public.

Than they should play better than what they have been...