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Magic Says MJ Greatest Ever


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#21 LALakersFan4Life

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Posted February 12, 2013 - 07:02 PM

Who's the Greatest Laker Magic? Not you!

Magic IS the greatest Laker of all time. Kobe is getting there if he gets his 6th.

#22 Windu

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Posted February 12, 2013 - 08:54 PM

Magic IS the greatest Laker of all time. Kobe is getting there if he gets his 6th.


<_<

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#23 ツ  

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Posted February 12, 2013 - 09:24 PM

wow i never knew.

#24 last stand 2.0

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Posted February 12, 2013 - 09:40 PM

Magic IS the greatest Laker of all time. Kobe is getting there if he gets his 6th.


don't agree with that. Magic IMO isn't a transferable player in any generation. not to mention a lot of Magic had to do with his surrounding players. easy to be the best PG when you have the best players to pass it to. including the greatest center of all time.

Magic is great but i believe he gets overrated. Michael on the other hand would be great no matter what era he plays
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#25 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 12, 2013 - 09:47 PM

Magic IS the greatest Laker of all time. Kobe is getting there if he gets his 6th.


Not much chance of that in the near future, it would appear.

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#26 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 12, 2013 - 09:48 PM

don't agree with that. Magic IMO isn't a transferable player in any generation. not to mention a lot of Magic had to do with his surrounding players. easy to be the best PG when you have the best players to pass it to. including the greatest center of all time.

Magic is great but i believe he gets overrated. Michael on the other hand would be great no matter what era he plays


And Kobe succeeded in running off one of the greatest centers of all time, so he can live with the fact that he could have played for even more rings than he has if he could just checked his ego.

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#27 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 12:44 AM

Magic IS the greatest Laker of all time. Kobe is getting there if he gets his 6th.


Kobe has been the greatest Laker ever since he won his 5th in 2010. All Magic had on him was that 5th ring, that's it. Kobe was already the superior all-around player, he has just as much hardware post-2010, and he has a more impressive overall body of work.

#28 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 12:50 AM

And Kobe succeeded in running off one of the greatest centers of all time, so he can live with the fact that he could have played for even more rings than he has if he could just checked his ego.


You're a fool if you think Kobe is solely to blame for that. So it was on Kobe to sacrifice everything for a guy who would come into training camp overweight and was content to just ride through the season? Did we not see how that turned out in '03?

Let's just ignore the fact that Shaq played out of shape his last two years in LA and refused to defer more to Kobe who was making a case for himself as the best player in the league. Oh, but then he gets in shape AND completely defers in Miami to Dwyane Wade. With no problems, just a happy camper. It was obviously all Kobe, definitely not Shaq. It's not like Shaq wore out his welcome in Miami a few seasons later.

Oh wait.

#29 ColStac

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 01:34 AM

Kobe has been the greatest Laker ever since he won his 5th in 2010. All Magic had on him was that 5th ring, that's it. Kobe was already the superior all-around player, he has just as much hardware post-2010, and he has a more impressive overall body of work.


I couldn't agree more with your post. I find that most people adamantly title Magic as the greatest Laker of all time because of the sentimental value attached to him and the showtime Lakers. If you grew up as a child watching him there is a certain awe factor that lives within you and it's hard to imagine anyone eclipsing your childhood hero. It's magnified if Magic and the Lakers developed your first real basketball experience during your formative years.

In a similar vein, I don't deny that MJ is the greatest of all time. I believe that he is. I do however believe that, like Magic's place in Laker lore, he has been mythologized and iconicized to such a point that many people fall prey to revisionist history. In their minds MJ was near perfect. Just about flawless. A player that would utterly destroy any player that has ever touched a basketball past, present and future. That if he played anyone in a one on one 10 times, he'd win all ten games in a landslide. I just don't believe that to be the case. He might get the better of them sure, but there are some players that have played that would give him a hand full. And there are some, dare I say it, that would get a few games on him.

If people would evaluate these players objectively and remove the rabid fan, and childhood hero glasses then I believe they would see that Kobe, has in fact, surpassed Magic as the greatest Laker when one takes into account his total skill set and body of work. And that MJ, being the greatest ever, was in fact very human, had flaws in his game, did miss shots in the clutch and had some bad shooting nights just like anyone else.

That said, I will always maintain that Bryant in his prime was a more lethal and versatile scorer than MJ. I've never seen a player with an offensive arsenal as deeply arrayed as Kobe's.

Edited by ColStac, February 13, 2013 - 02:02 AM.

The game changes, the players turnover, but the Mamba remains a constant!

#30 LakeShow805

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 11:05 AM

And Kobe succeeded in running off one of the greatest centers of all time, so he can live with the fact that he could have played for even more rings than he has if he could just checked his ego.

If Shaq understood Kobe's greatness then they could of. Shaq couldn't handle the fact Kobe was becoming the man.

#31 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 01:55 PM

You're a fool if you think Kobe is solely to blame for that. So it was on Kobe to sacrifice everything for a guy who would come into training camp overweight and was content to just ride through the season? Did we not see how that turned out in '03?

Let's just ignore the fact that Shaq played out of shape his last two years in LA and refused to defer more to Kobe who was making a case for himself as the best player in the league. Oh, but then he gets in shape AND completely defers in Miami to Dwyane Wade. With no problems, just a happy camper. It was obviously all Kobe, definitely not Shaq. It's not like Shaq wore out his welcome in Miami a few seasons later.

Oh wait.


I'll revise your assertion to mean that "I am a fool if I believe that Kobe was at least equally to blame for that". Then guilty as charged, from your perspective. Kobe would have more hardware today but for his ego. Shaq would likely have more hardware today but for his ego.

BTW, is calling someone a "fool" enough to hand out a self-warning?

Edited by LakerGeezer, February 13, 2013 - 01:57 PM.

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#32 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 01:58 PM

If Shaq understood Kobe's greatness then they could of. Shaq couldn't handle the fact Kobe was becoming the man.


Ah, Kobe's greatness. I keep forgetting that this is the KobeForum not the LakerNation board.

Edited by LakerGeezer, February 13, 2013 - 01:59 PM.

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#33 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 02:10 PM

I'll revise your assertion to mean that "I am a fool if I believe that Kobe was at least equally to blame for that". Then guilty as charged, from your perspective. Kobe would have more hardware today but for his ego. Shaq would likely have more hardware today but for his ego.

BTW, is calling someone a "fool" enough to hand out a self-warning?


Are we in elementary school? You're going to need thicker skin than that if you're going to post on a message board.

#34 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 02:16 PM

^Oh, ouch that hurt. Sorry I challenged your position on Kobe's greatness, but you tried to put words in my mouth and then reacted like a petulant child when I called you on it. I never said Kobe was solely to blame ... but cant you at least acknowledge that he had some role in it ... or was it soley Shaq's fault?????

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#35 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 02:38 PM

^Oh, ouch that hurt. Sorry I challenged your position on Kobe's greatness, but you tried to put words in my mouth and then reacted like a petulant child when I called you on it. I never said Kobe was solely to blame ... but cant you at least acknowledge that he had some role in it ... or was it soley Shaq's fault?????


What words did I put into your mouth? You were basically putting all the blame on Kobe right here:

And Kobe succeeded in running off one of the greatest centers of all time, so he can live with the fact that he could have played for even more rings than he has if he could just checked his ego.


How else is anyone supposed to interpret that? You're basically saying that Kobe is to blame for "running" Shaq out of town, he should regret it, and that that duo fell apart simply because of Kobe's ego. No mention of Shaq's role at all.

And this is just a strange post overall because it has nothing to do with anything else in this thread, not even the post you replied to.

I never said Kobe was without blame, they both had huge egos. That was obvious to everyone. But if you're trying to make that point, at least post something that actually conveys that message.

#36 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 02:46 PM

^Um, "he succeeded in running him off" was not intended to suggest that Shaq was entirely blameless, I guess you can read it that way and I could have been clearer to avoid it being read that way. And you could not made an assumption and have avoided words like "solely" when the poster did not use them. Does that work for you?

We can agree on something it appears ... they certainly both had and have huge egos. Its a shame that they BOTH could not have been mature enough to see that they had alot to lose by letting their spat cause a break up. Shaq needed to accept that fact that Kobe was going to be the "man", and Kobe needed to accept the fact that Shaq was still an important part of his path to a championship.

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#37 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 03:03 PM

Yes, I completely agree. Egos couldn't be held in check and it led to the most dominant one-two punch in the history of basketball being broken up.

Personally though, I place more of the blame upon Shaq. He was 31, starting to enter the final half of his career, and he just wouldn't defer to a younger player who was clearly on the up and up. Young Kobe was definitely hot-headed and egotistic, but we can't forget that he was still in his early 20s. It was to be expected. Shaq should have been more mature (in my opinion), but then again that was never his strong suit.

I'm never going to forgive him for refusing to adapt to Kobe in LA then bending over backwards to accommodate Wade in Miami the following season. It wasn't that he couldn't adapt, it was that he simply refused to do so because it was Kobe. That was just unforgivable, about as close as you can get to flipping off this entire fanbase.

#38 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 03:25 PM

In a similar vein, I don't deny that MJ is the greatest of all time. I believe that he is. I do however believe that, like Magic's place in Laker lore, he has been mythologized and iconicized to such a point that many people fall prey to revisionist history. In their minds MJ was near perfect. Just about flawless. A player that would utterly destroy any player that has ever touched a basketball past, present and future. That if he played anyone in a one on one 10 times, he'd win all ten games in a landslide. I just don't believe that to be the case. He might get the better of them sure, but there are some players that have played that would give him a hand full. And there are some, dare I say it, that would get a few games on him.

If people would evaluate these players objectively and remove the rabid fan, and childhood hero glasses then I believe they would see that Kobe, has in fact, surpassed Magic as the greatest Laker when one takes into account his total skill set and body of work. And that MJ, being the greatest ever, was in fact very human, had flaws in his game, did miss shots in the clutch and had some bad shooting nights just like anyone else.

That said, I will always maintain that Bryant in his prime was a more lethal and versatile scorer than MJ. I've never seen a player with an offensive arsenal as deeply arrayed as Kobe's.


Absolutely. I wish more people would look at the game more objectively to get a clear understanding in these sorts of discussions. Michael Jordan wasn't a perfect player, but over the whole of his career, he was the most complete player the NBA had ever seen. Athleticism, skill, scoring ability, defensive ability, leadership, and showing up in the clutch. He did it all.

Going 6 for 6 in the Finals and being the leader for 2 separate three-peats is what has cemented him as the greatest to ever play, and I don't think anyone will come close to matching that kind of success. 6 championships in 8 years (probably would have had 8, I don't think Hakeem's Rockets could have contained them). You can't argue against a player's talent and skill if he's been successful enough to back it up. That was the argument against Michael until he began winning in the 90s. Winning changes everything.

It's more or less the same thing with LeBron James nowadays who is clearly the best player in the league right now, but there are still some people (especially in this fanbase) who will never acknowledge that fact. He's proven his dominance, brought his team a championship, and he's playing on a level that's almost ridiculous to even think about. Just pure, effortless dominance on the floor. It's a damn shame, because they're missing out watching a guy who is one of most gifted players to ever play in the NBA.

And finally yes, I agree that Kobe in his ultimate prime is the better offensive player. MJ was never the shooter that Kobe was. People forget just how deadly Kobe was as a shooter before he had that string of nasty injuries to his shooting hand. He was capable of dropping 30-40 on any given night off jumpers alone. MJ could not do that. Kobe is the most gifted offensive player in NBA history as far as I'm concerned. There was nothing he could not do on the offensive end. No player was as offensively dominant as mid-00s Kobe. However, the gap between Kobe offensively with MJ isn't as large as it is defensively where MJ clearly outclasses him. That's what ultimately puts Mike on top for me as an individual player. I'd go as far as saying that they are 1-2 among the most complete players in league history.

#39 Cowboys&LakersFan

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 04:08 PM

Jordan is probably the best ever, but Kobe and Kareem aren't far behind him.
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#40 LakerGeezer

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Posted February 13, 2013 - 05:12 PM

Yes, I completely agree. Egos couldn't be held in check and it led to the most dominant one-two punch in the history of basketball being broken up.

Personally though, I place more of the blame upon Shaq. He was 31, starting to enter the final half of his career, and he just wouldn't defer to a younger player who was clearly on the up and up. Young Kobe was definitely hot-headed and egotistic, but we can't forget that he was still in his early 20s. It was to be expected. Shaq should have been more mature (in my opinion), but then again that was never his strong suit.

I'm never going to forgive him for refusing to adapt to Kobe in LA then bending over backwards to accommodate Wade in Miami the following season. It wasn't that he couldn't adapt, it was that he simply refused to do so because it was Kobe. That was just unforgivable, about as close as you can get to flipping off this entire fanbase.


I think the model Kobe and Shaq should have followed was Magic and Kareem. Aging star with up and coming star, Magic deferred to Kareem until Kareem chose to hand over the baton (at least thats what it looked like publicly). Of course, Jerry West was there behind the scenes to coax both of them to do the right thing. Shaq's ego wouldnt allow him to let go and Kobe's ego wouldnt allow him to let the old guy do it in his timeframe.

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