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Kobe needs to stop playing selfish basketball


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#61 Lords of the Rings

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 07:13 PM

What we need and what we are getting are different things. You don't make up for missing the best play maker on the team by taking on other teams by yourself. If Kobe couldn't facilitate, this wouldn't be a problem. He can...and he should.

Is that the reason we lose these games? There isn't one reason and it's not any one person's fault.


Greatness should be measured by ability to find a way to win. All I'm seeing is a person doing what he wants and and expecting everyone else to do the rest. Simmons may have been right...Kobe approaches the game and his teammate like they are there to serve him. That's not good.

This all coming from someone who has defended Kobe for most of his career, even through the rape charges. Having this much talent and not winning is inexcusable...great players find a way to win.




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#62 Disaster in Paradise

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 07:36 PM

Oh dont worry. Im pretty sure they dont want yours too.


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#63 soldier4death

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 09:00 PM

Kobe selfish? Is this thread "bumped" from 1998?

Kobe will always play that way, if no one else is contributing.

#64 DanishLakerFan

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 09:22 PM

Everyone have seen these stats saying when Kobe scores 30, the team is 1-10.
IMO these stats doesn't really tell the story right.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Does Kobe's scoring/shooting hurt the success of the team OR is the team playing so bad that Kobe tries to bail them out?

IMO it is unfair to blame Kobe for the Lakers' struggles so far. He may have been shooting a bit much, when he was close to cracking the 30k mark, but other than that he have been very effective. The Lakers' struggles lies on the defensive end.

#65 Real Deal

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 10:18 PM

Kobe's FG% is higher in losses than it is when we win. Fact.

In nine of those 11 games he scored 30+ points, Kobe has played 38+ minutes. More minutes, more shots.

Kobe's lowest minutes of the season, in nine games, we are 7-2...because they are usually wins, and most of the time, against average-to-bad teams (DET, SAC, HOU, NOH, DAL, DEN). In those games, he has shot under 18 attempts in all but one.

They do this every year with him, even when we win championships. The fact is, in four of his five championships, Kobe had more FGA/G than anyone else on his team, even Shaq, and STILL lead the team in APG, like he's doing now.

Just people desperately looking for answers without actually paying attention to the team out there on the court.

#66 Paris

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 10:23 PM

speaks to his greatness real deal, off topic, who IS your fav player ever. you say both kobe and mj. for me its kobe, then mj.


#67 lakerfandude

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 11:04 PM

This thread is about 6 to 10 years too late. He has been this way from day one. Yes Kobe shoots too much and he always has. Imagine if he had the mentality of a Magic Johnson or even now, a LeBron James, since he played in the NBA. He could of had at least 8 championships by now. His ego is by far the worst in the NBA, yet his talents are by far one of, if not the best to ever play the game.. He is his own worst enemy and he doesn't even know it. What a shame.

Edited by lakerfandude, December 12, 2012 - 11:06 PM.


#68 LakeShow805

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Posted December 12, 2012 - 11:55 PM

This thread is about 6 to 10 years too late. He has been this way from day one. Yes Kobe shoots too much and he always has. Imagine if he had the mentality of a Magic Johnson or even now, a LeBron James, since he played in the NBA. He could of had at least 8 championships by now. His ego is by far the worst in the NBA, yet his talents are by far one of, if not the best to ever play the game.. He is his own worst enemy and he doesn't even know it. What a shame.


lol Kobe is greater than both those players so his mentality has nothing to do with it. If Shaq wasn't such a baby and stayed in shape...then kobe could probably have 8

Mj has the same mentality. Its called a killer mentality and it gets the job down.

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#69 lakersince75

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 04:30 AM

lol Kobe is greater than both those players so his mentality has nothing to do with it. If Shaq wasn't such a baby and stayed in shape...then kobe could probably have 8

Mj has the same mentality. Its called a killer mentality and it gets the job down.

Greater than Magic???? UUUUUuuuuuh Wow. Greater than a guy with a Kabillion Triple Doubles and 9 final appearances. Not too sure about that one. The only thing that stopped him from having more rings was injuries to other players and not keeping his shaboinkin in his pants

#70 Windu

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 09:02 AM

People still think Magic is better than Kobe? lol

Pau Gasol is GONE


#71 LakeShow805

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 09:29 AM

Greater than Magic???? UUUUUuuuuuh Wow. Greater than a guy with a Kabillion Triple Doubles and 9 final appearances. Not too sure about that one. The only thing that stopped him from having more rings was injuries to other players and not keeping his shaboinkin in his pants

and?
Kobe beats him in almost every other career stat. Kobe was a complete player that plays great on both sides. Magic's D was weak.

9 final appearance means nothing....it only matters if you win.

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#72 Sung

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 09:30 AM

Before anything, thank you GCMD for your input. Greatly appreciated.

Let me add something more to this.

If we hired Phil Jackson, I would not have minded Kobe taking x number of shots, or posts up every play down. That is the "Triangle defense".

However, in Mike D'Antoni's system, you have to move the ball to create quick, open shots.

With Kobe holding the ball, it takes fastbreak out the window, it takes rhythm away from others,
It is the flow of the game I am talking about. Even the players in the postgame interviews imply that the ball gets stuck. So where?

The offensive system has to change.

For the record, knicks under Mike had a nice stint with Carmelo out with Lin dictating the tempo. Kobe cannot play like Melo in this offense.

When Nash comes back, I would love to see Kobe taking simple, open shots instead of faking the shot to draw the defenders and taking tougher, flashy shots.

FYI, I have been a fan of Kobe's ever since he got drafted by the Lakers to this very day. Don't get me wrong. I want him to win another championship ring for himself and for us as well.

#73 Sung

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 10:00 AM

Why is Kobe shooting at a higher %? Do any of you guys play basketball?

We never had a screen setter like Dwight in the recent years. We never had so many three point threads in the recent years.

Kobe is not getting double,triple teamed as he did in the past. And I know as a fact, Kobe can score on isolation any given day or night.

That is not the point here. I am not here to argue what percentage he shoots and how many shots he takes. I don't mind him taking 30+ shots if he takes those shots off passes. Taking 20+ shots created on your own takes other guys rhythm out the window.

Think about it. When you play basketball, you run up and down to court, and you don't shoot the ball for a while, it takes your shooting away. when you don't make shots, you become hesitant to take shots. When you don't shoot, you defer to someone who has been taking shots all game long. When you do that, you lose eagerness to play at both ends. And when you lose the game, you get blamed for not shooting well, and the other guy tried to bail the team out...

I love Kobe as much as any of you do. I've already got my 10 week old son his jersey.
I just want emphasize we are in a different offense system. I do understand Kobe is 2 guard not 1, but he has what it takes to play point 2 guard. His skill set is way too high to have only shooting in his arsenal.

Kobe is a better play than Magic Johnson; however, he could be way better if he can figure out this offensive system.

#74 GCMD

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 12:20 PM

People don't seem to want to understand anything about the Lakers new coach or offense.


For them, Kobe transcends the entire franchise. And YES, I'm calling some of you out. You're incapable of having a serious critical discussion about Kobe without becoming defensive and condescending...in short, you won't listen to anything anyone has to say.


Kobe needs to adjust his game to help this team. He needs to play with the same energy and intensity on the defensive end that he demands from everyone else. That's where we need to start.

That's how we can begin to turn this season around, with or without Nash. The rest of the team can be maximized or cut to further help the team.

But no matter what, I don't know what I'm talking about.

#75 stillshining

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 01:38 PM

Kobe is fifth in the league in PER, is the league leader in points and still shoots better than everyone not named Durant, Lebron and Curry in the top 10. His efficiency all across the board is elite, shooting close to 40% from downtown (top 15 in makes), 44% from midrange (ridiculous for how many he takes) and shoots better at the free throw line, compared to the ten players that average the most per game, than every player not named Durant. He's top five in his position in scoring,assisting, rebounding and steals. He has also kept his man to 32% shooting and is 12'th (out of 155 players) in opponents points per play.

The start Kobe has gotten on this season is really unprecedented for a 34 year old, when you compare his stats to some of the great 34 year old seasons in NBA history you see he's right there at the top. Then you consider that there is no 34 year old that has logged as many minutes/seasons/games as this guy has and it really just takes it up a notch in terms of amazement.

Kobe is top five in turnovers, shoots the second most shots and has been under fire for his questionable rotations on defense but let's not forget that out of everyone in the team he has been the most consistent day in and day out and he's the only star from the big four that has kept his end of the bargain. We can blame him for his turnovers and his shady defense from time to time... or we can appreciate the fact that Kobe is playing better than anyone his age in nba history

#76 GCMD

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 01:42 PM

I'm probably going to get banned but I'm at the point where I don't really care. This conversation should not be had between intelligent fans because it's stupid and it makes no sense. I have not said one thing that was defamatory or inaccurate but because it's KOBE, we have to do this dance.

You know entirely too much about basketball to be so stubborn about something so obvious.

Jesus Christ.

You CANNOT take a primary scoring option, and turn him into a facilitating second option, when your second option (Dwight Howard) will continually get fouled and sent to the line + you don't have legitimate threats at the one, the three OR the four.


The rest of your post points to Kobe being a good scorer and the best facilitator for the championship years yet this post claims that's not possible because his 2nd option can't make free throws?

Ever heard of Shaq? Hack-A-Shaq?

No legitimate threats at 1, 3 or 4? Our first 3 Ch'ips with Phil had a GREAT supporting cast, right?

SMH

Give me one season this has ever happened to any superstar, in the history of the league...a primary scoring option, turned facilitator (basically point-forward) and becoming the second option (15 shots a game is laughable, sorry), and it works.


Scottie Pippen was the primary scorer for an entire season after being the primary FACILITATOR every previous season...THEN, he had to revert back to facilitator status when MJ returned...thanks.

My point is Kobe doesn't have to become the 2nd option...that's YOUR definition. I'm asking that Kobe, MAKING ~$30M/y, adjust his game and get his teammates involved, as required by the Mike D'Antoni offense.

But for you, that doesn't matter. Why not just let Kobe F-ing shoot every time? Why even have a COACH? Or an OFFENSE?


And he's CLEARLY not running it.
And by your own admission, Kobe CAN run it.
But also, according to you, he shouldn't HAVE to.

I'm only seeing KOBE benefit from that...not his teammates or his team.

Michael didn't even do that in Washington. Aside from his rookie season (won't count his injured sophomore year), Jordan didn't shoot under 22 shots a game, even at 34-35 years old and all the talent he had...and in Washington, he took 22 and 19 FGA/G in those two seasons. Why? You can't simply go and turn a primary scoring option into a second option facilitator. This is the NBA, not high school basketball.


Michael was 39...

Seriously? That's your argument?

And he had been retired for how long?


AND, you keep ignoring Pippen. If MJ HAD to pass the ball to win, maybe he WOULDN'T have won as much OR he would have adjusted his game. You can't keep comparing MJ and Kobe without admitting it's apples and oranges WITHOUT discussing PIPPEN.

A team with three all-stars (three franchise players...two superstars and an all-star, however you want to look at it) went 9-8 to start a season because Erik Spoelstra had this idea that LeBron James (their primary option) could come down the court, do what he wanted, and get everyone shots because he's the best playmaker on the team. Nope. They had to install an offense, and right now, we don't have one because our 50-year old PG has played just one full game in a Lakers jersey.


WE HAVE AN OFFENSE, BRANDON!!!

Spoelstra was in over his head until he took the reigns and gave everyone a role and a purpose...but even then, you ignore the fact that Lebron had WADE, who also averaged an above average APG, though not being a PG...sounds familiar?

"Pippen"?

You just INTENTIONALLY ignore this fact, right? No. I believe you just look at it from one POV because you don't want to believe that Kobe ISN'T doing "what's best for the team"...shocking and life-changing, right? I know!

Newsflash: Kobe has been the best facilitator in every single championship team he has been a part of, and almost every single team (championship or not) since 1999. Led all of the championships teams in assists, easily. FACT. What else did he do? He was shooting more shots than anyone else on four of those five championship teams, more than Shaq.


And who was the PG on those teams?

Exactly.

Saying Kobe was the best playmaker on a team where the PG was a glorified SG is NOT an accomplishment.

And if that's wrong, LIST Kobe's starting backcourt mate and their career APG...it's not like he had competition.

Seriously weak, Brandon. You wouldn't present this type of argument without thinking it thru in a normal discussion.


Now, why should he do that now? We didn't need a real FLOOR GENERAL for the TRIANGLE OFFENSE!!!

This is NOT the TRIANGLE OFFENSE. THIS offense REQUIRES a TRADITIONAL PLAYMAKER. Kobe's the best we have outside of NASH...

It's common sense.

Did we need Kobe to shoot 15 shots a night, and facilitate more as the best facilitator on those championship teams? Nope. We just needed an offense, and players who were willing to do work. Fact.


Comparing the Triangle to this offense and it's needs requirements?

SMH

Night and day. This offense REQUIRES playmaking and ball movement.


Some of you can dream all you want, but the truth is, we can win a game here or there when Kobe facilitates, but teams will plan for it just as they plan for Kobe's 30+ point games, and we'll end up losing again. Yeah, Kobe could come out Thursday and surprise the hell out of the Knicks by throwing 10 assists (not sure who will convert those, but whatever), do it once again in the next game, but five games into this new "strategy" we have, we'll have 2-3 more losses because these are NBA coaches and NBA defenders.


So why even play the games without Nash?

And if you KNOW what will happen, you must be ASSUMING Kobe will get shut down? Why would you do that? Kobe's one of the smartest basketball players in the league and you think he could not BOTH set his teammates up AND read the defense?

You can't keep listing his greatness at facilitating and claim he shouldn't do it.

Like we have a choice?!

That's not even considering the fact that a lot of our turnovers are coming off of Kobe and Dwight, because neither of them can play that role in this whack-ass offense we try to run for our shooters. So we want Kobe to do MORE as a facilitator?


And the other shoe finally drops. It's not Kobe as facilitator that's the problem. It's the OFFENSE itself that's the problem...

At this point, I'm tired of fighting this battle. All I'm going to say is it's not YOUR call. No one is really CONCERNED about YOUR opinion of the offense. It's not up for debate. It's here. It has to be run. If Kobe doesn't want to run it, being the default facilitator while Nash is out, that's about the same as mailing in the loss.

Facilitating is NOT an option.

And the turnovers are a fact of life until the ENTIRE TEAM gets comfortable running the offense. That can't happen without a lead guard facilitating...

Chicken or egg? No...D'Antoni's offense has only been successful with a legit playmaker...NYK played horrible when MELO did the same thing Kobe is doing...

If you want Kobe to facilitate, stick him in the triangle offense, not some uptempo POS that I stated we wouldn't be successful in from the start.

-------------------


Again, it is what it is. Your opinion of the offense is irrelevant. It works with a legit facilitator. But, wasn't Kobe excited about the offense? And MDA?

I'm tired of this. It makes no sense and you won't listen. You admit Kobe can facilitate but you won't concede that it's what's best for the team...

Funny part is, we're still a top ten offense...top six three-point shooting, top eight FG%...but we aren't successful in it because it is running our best players to DEATH, and a good chunk of our team is heavily-dependent on Kobe because of the style of play. No chance we get back in transition on a bad turnover. No chance we can defend late in games. No chance we have the legs and arms to hoist up high-percentage shots when they matter most. No chance anyone else on this team, including Dwight Howard, can do the scoring work that Kobe does, even collectively.


WRONG.

We aren't successful because we aren't playing as a team. This offense requires ball movement and playmaking. This offense is about equal opportunity and free flowing energy.

This team COULD play better with Kobe setting them up. This team COULD find more scoring when they ran the OFFENSE. This team HAS enough talent to be successful. This team HAS 7 players that COULD put at least 20ppg on any given night.

This offense is about sharing, not blame. This offense is about getting the best shot, not choosing who should and should NOT take those shots.

Kobe can't determine who can and can not do what it takes or step up on a given night.

I'm not sure if you know it or not, but KOBE IS NOT GOD.

Trust the offense.
Do what's best for the team.

If we are still losing after that, you make a change....but you HAVE TO GIVE THE OFFENSE A LEGIT CHANCE.

Kobe Ball does NOT do that.

The fatigue we're experiencing from an offense that isn't suiting us, is burying us back on defense. We are shooting FAR too many threes, even if they are top six in the NBA in percentage, because our misses lead to long rebounds. We are NOT able to run P&R as well, which asks for Kobe to do even more work scoring the ball. The fact that Kobe and Howard have to provide help defense on almost every [expletive]ing play on the court is wearing our two best defensive players out, also.


Playmaking is easier than going 1-on-5. It also gets the team in a flow. It allows us to play MORE PLAYERS, giving our starters more rest. It does NOT depend on each player having the same skills. It can take a player's strengths and maximize them while hiding their deficiencies. This assumes the offense is ran correctly...and that starts with a player who can create shots for others while controlling the flow and tempo of the game.

This team needs to be greater than the sum of it's parts. That's what this offense is capable of doing. That's why it's supposed to be fun. That's why we SHOULD give it a chance. That's why Kobe needs to help us get thru this until Nash returns. Then, he can do whatever he wants.

But as the leader on this team, the franchise player, the $30Million Dollar Man, you can't seriously sit there and say its not only what he SHOULD do, it's his DUTY to his teammates, this team and this franchise, to do whatEVER it takes to win...

And this is what we need from him to give us that chance.

Great players find a way to win games.

Shuffle the blame to Kobe and Dwight for their turnovers, and Dwight for his missed FT's (although, using the past championship teams again, we did it with Shaq, who was "as good" as Dwight late in games because both were at the FT line, not in the paint) if those two are going to have dirt kicked into their eyes, but realize that they have teammates who simply aren't playing (Nash), incredibly bad defensive players who aren't legit second options (Jamison, Gasol), defensive players who have no idea how to play offense (Artest, Hill), and the rest are so irrelevant, they have no room in this discussion.


I'm not shuffling the blame to anyone. I'm telling you where we need to start to correct what's wrong with the offense and the team. Dwight's turnovers are a known entity...he's never been a guy who didn't get stripped or lose the ball. Kobe's a guy who has lots of experience running a team and an offense. He's our best playmaker and best 1-on-1 player. He is one of the only players on our team who can create a shot for himself and others. He's one of the smartest basketball players in the history of the NBA.

Yet, you continue to claim our team wouldn't be better served by him taking over primary playmaking duties?
You claim we could NOT rejuvenate some of the bench players with Kobe setting the table?
You claim our shooters wouldn't shoot better percentages with Kobe driving and kicking?
You claim the offense wouldn't create easier shots for Dwight with Kobe running the show?

I DON'T understand your "logic".

You can point to whatever you like, but if it's contradicting anything above, you're wrong.


I may be wrong...but you are incorrigible. You have no desire to listen when it comes to Kobe. Any criticism of him is wrong on it's face.

This discussion is over. You win. I don't care. I care more about the Lakers than Kobe. F(orget) Kobe if it means the Lakers are a better team.

Ban me if you must. It doesn't matter. I will stand by my statements.

#77 GCMD

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 01:59 PM

Kobe is fifth in the league in PER, is the league leader in points and still shoots better than everyone not named Durant, Lebron and Curry in the top 10. His efficiency all across the board is elite, shooting close to 40% from downtown (top 15 in makes), 44% from midrange (ridiculous for how many he takes) and shoots better at the free throw line, compared to the ten players that average the most per game, than every player not named Durant. He's top five in his position in scoring,assisting, rebounding and steals. He has also kept his man to 32% shooting and is 12'th (out of 155 players) in opponents points per play.

The start Kobe has gotten on this season is really unprecedented for a 34 year old, when you compare his stats to some of the great 34 year old seasons in NBA history you see he's right there at the top. Then you consider that there is no 34 year old that has logged as many minutes/seasons/games as this guy has and it really just takes it up a notch in terms of amazement.

Kobe is top five in turnovers, shoots the second most shots and has been under fire for his questionable rotations on defense but let's not forget that out of everyone in the team he has been the most consistent day in and day out and he's the only star from the big four that has kept his end of the bargain. We can blame him for his turnovers and his shady defense from time to time... or we can appreciate the fact that Kobe is playing better than anyone his age in nba history


And he's doing all of that while his team is LOSING...

What an accomplishment!

If that's all that matters, fine. Kobe's playing better and the Lakers playing worst...WINS are irrelevant.


It makes more sense that whatever's happening may NOT be what's best for the team. Kobe is NOT the team. If Kobe shot 20%, 9ppg and have the worst season of his career but the Lakers were undefeated, would you try to change the team to make sure Kobe's numbers looked better?


NO.


Wins are all that matter and great players FIND A WAY TO WIN...not lead the league in scoring...not shoot over 50%...not lead the league in efficiency rating.

That's easy on a bad team...T-Mac, AI, VC, Durant, Wade, et cetera...all have had "good seasons" while their team stunk it up. I'm amazed that our fans, LAKERS Fans, support this!

Oh how art the mighty fallen...

#78 Windu

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 02:26 PM

Excuse me, but aren't these players getting paid to do a job as well? Why must Kobe hold their hands? If Kobe has to make their shots, play defense for them, rebound for them, and etc...then they need to pay him for it.

Pau Gasol is GONE


#79 stillshining

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 02:46 PM

And he's doing all of that while his team is LOSING...

What an accomplishment!

If that's all that matters, fine. Kobe's playing better and the Lakers playing worst...WINS are irrelevant.


It makes more sense that whatever's happening may NOT be what's best for the team. Kobe is NOT the team. If Kobe shot 20%, 9ppg and have the worst season of his career but the Lakers were undefeated, would you try to change the team to make sure Kobe's numbers looked better?


NO.


Wins are all that matter and great players FIND A WAY TO WIN...not lead the league in scoring...not shoot over 50%...not lead the league in efficiency rating.

That's easy on a bad team...T-Mac, AI, VC, Durant, Wade, et cetera...all have had "good seasons" while their team stunk it up. I'm amazed that our fans, LAKERS Fans, support this!

Oh how art the mighty fallen...


So you're amazed that I support the best player on the Lakers having a historic season despite their record? OK. Anyways what Kobe is doing is not in fact easy seeing as no player in NBA history can say they did what Kobe's doing so far this season, comparing inefficient, one-sided players (except for Wade and now Durant) that were in the PRIME of their careers is just not the same. Wade has had plenty of success in terms of winning in his career and Durant looks like he's headed that way because they had/have a contending team around them. Every year guys want Kobe to be what he's not, he will not average more than five assists because it's not his job to. Asking Kobe to facilitate for his teammates and be the main scoring option makes Duhon absolutely useless and puts extra wear and tear on Kobe that's not necessary, he's already playing in a run and gun offense and is the main help defender after Howard. There is only so much responsibility a 17 year vet can take.

Plus the numbers tell you that the Lakers offense is not the problem right now: they're seventh in scoring, seventh in field goal percentage, 6th in three point shooting, somehow are fifth in offensive rebounding percentage even though they've been pretty efficient and are shooting the most free throws per game by far. Their only problems is that they don't make free throws (second worst in the league) and turn the ball over too much. For the Lakers to be this good offensively despite playing with a core that has barely played together before this year, have had three different coaches so far and a point guard rotation of Duhon and Morris speaks volumes to the Lakers best offensive player.

The problem with the Lakers is their defense and their chemistry, notice how their two biggest weaknesses have to do with areas that require repitition and chemistry (defensive rotations and turnovers)? I just can't imagine taking away the biggest scoring threat for the Lakers (by far now with how bad gasol is struggling and dwight is struggling with free throws) and making him the main facilitator(which would in turn make Duhon useless considering he's not a spot up shooter and defense is a struggle) would make this team any better offensively than they already are...

#80 gque24

gque24

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Posted December 13, 2012 - 02:59 PM

This thread is about 6 to 10 years too late. He has been this way from day one. Yes Kobe shoots too much and he always has. Imagine if he had the mentality of a Magic Johnson or even now, a LeBron James, since he played in the NBA. He could of had at least 8 championships by now. His ego is by far the worst in the NBA, yet his talents are by far one of, if not the best to ever play the game.. He is his own worst enemy and he doesn't even know it. What a shame.


thats funny cuz neither magic nor lBJ have 8! your type of fandom is what is wrong with laker fans. u dont know sheet about the game of basketball. stick to your usual same tired old cliche using Kobe as whipping boy. espn talking point = dumb.
Never Wrong Always Right Like Freeway Exits!!




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