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Kobe is great, but history shows the coach may be the biggest leader.


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#1 lakerfandude

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:02 PM

I'm gonna keep my comment short. Kobe is one of if not the greatest players to ever play the game, but in my opinion he is not a great leader compared to leaders of the past, or present for that matter. Of course every great player needs a great coach, and Phil is the perfect example. Who knows, maybe Jordan would have never won a ring without Phil, and Magic Johnson may have never won one without Pat Riley, but they're style of play makes me think otherwise.

I think they would have, no proof, but it's my humble opinion. I don't see Kobe winning another championship and leading the Lakers to a title without Phil. I hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see it. Maybe the true leader to all those other championships was the coach and the greatest of all players would have never been able to win without a great coach.

My question to you guys is, will Kobe win another championship with a lesser coach? Is he capable of being that leader that can do what many others haven't? Does Kobe need a coach like Phil to get a ring? Did Magic Johnson, did Jordan?

Edited by lakerfandude, December 09, 2012 - 11:24 PM.


#2 Lemon

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:09 PM

Jordan, pat Riley, Kobe. Pick you're bad cop.

Got it? Now

Magic, Scottie, fisher. Pick your good cop.

The responsibility of leadership isn't carried on only one person

#3 lakerfan0307

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:17 PM

I'm sure Kobe does a lot to help lead this team on and off the court. However, if the people on this team want to win as bad as Kobe does, they would have it in them. They shouldn't have to be reminded to play hard.

But on a somewhat off-topic rant, I can't stand the people saying that when Kobe scores 30+ this season the Lakers are 1-9 or whatever the record is. Without Kobe many of these games wouldn't even be close.

#4 lakerfandude

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:17 PM

Jordan, pat Riley, Kobe. Pick you're bad cop.

Got it? Now

Magic, Scottie, fisher. Pick your good cop.

The responsibility of leadership isn't carried on only one person


Sorry, but there is usually just one true leader on the court, but is he more of a leader than the coach? Is Kobe such a leader on the court that he can win a title as that leader with a coach by the name of say, Mike D'Antoni? He's never won without Phil, so it is a legit and honest question.

Edited by lakerfandude, December 09, 2012 - 11:20 PM.


#5 Lemon

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:32 PM

I disagree. You can say the same thing about Kobe not winning without Fisher. A championship is a puzzle. You have to find people to fill roles. Pj was great at maximizing players, but so is Steve Nash. it's about solving the puzzle with what you have, and that responsibility doesn't solely rest with Kobe.

#6 Calisupra2nr

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:35 PM

Kobe is not the same leader that MJ or Magic were. Nor is he as good of teammate. That is why people rarely like to put him in top 5. He has all the talent and maybe even more than any other player, but he has had a rough road to being a good leader and teammate. Even now, after all the work he has put in, there are still things I see Kobe do and not do that remind me of why a Fisher or Phil were so important to him.

#7 lakerfandude

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:37 PM

I disagree. You can say the same thing about Kobe not winning without Fisher. A championship is a puzzle. You have to find people to fill roles. Pj was great at maximizing players, but so is Steve Nash. it's about solving the puzzle with what you have, and that responsibility doesn't solely rest with Kobe.


True, but you made my point sorta, Nash has never won a championship with his coaches. Would he have won one with a coach like Phil? I'd have to say probably.

#8 Lakers4Life

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Posted December 09, 2012 - 11:44 PM

I think Nash can play the "good" cop leadership role.
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#9 Lemon

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 12:12 AM

True, but you made my point sorta, Nash has never won a championship with his coaches. Would he have won one with a coach like Phil? I'd have to say probably.


To continue on the analogy on the puzzle, MDA and Nash have proven to be able to get great season records but haven't been able to complete the puzzle on time. Kobe and Howard can change that.

a great coach is important to a championship but a good set of players can compensate for a mediocre coach. Miami and spo is a good example. Larry brown and Detroit is another example.

Edited by Hit up the Post, December 10, 2012 - 12:16 AM.


#10 lakerfandude

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 12:25 AM

To continue on the analogy on the puzzle, MDA and Nash have proven to be able to get great season records but haven't been able to complete the puzzle on time. Kobe and Howard can change that.

a great coach is important to a championship but a good set of players can compensate for a mediocre coach. Miami and spo is a good example. Larry brown and Detroit is another example.


With Miami, I may agree, but Larry Brown is a great coach not mediocre, so I disagree with you on that one..Brown took the Sixers to the finals also, and is considered one of the greatest coaches to coach the game. Bad example dude..

Edited by lakerfandude, December 10, 2012 - 12:26 AM.


#11 Cowboys&LakersFan

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 12:26 AM

Kobe is not a great leader? :laughing:
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#12 lakerfandude

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 12:41 AM

Kobe is not a great leader? :laughing:


I guess you didn't read the post, lol. But to your point, Kobe never lead a team to a title that Phil wasn't at the healm. If I'm wrong, let me know, lol...

#13 Japago

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 12:56 AM

It isn't about Kobe's leadership. Like you said, almost every great player has had help from good coaches to win championships. Del Harris/Kurt Rambis couldn't win with a team that later on 3-peated.

It's about the Lakers having older players that can't defend. Lebron/Jordan wouldn't be able to lead this team to a championship.

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#14 Lemon

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 01:29 AM

With Miami, I may agree, but Larry Brown is a great coach not mediocre, so I disagree with you on that one..Brown took the Sixers to the finals also, and is considered one of the greatest coaches to coach the game. Bad example dude..


Larry brown is a great defensive coach that lacked strength offensively. I always viewed his stint with detroit as something that saved his legacy. Otherwise it would've been lackluster in the professional league. Maybe this team can save MDAs legacy.

Browns sixer teams didn't have to go through the dominant western teams. Nashs suns did. They had to get past both the spurs and the lakers, but when they beat one they weren't able to best the other. it has been a different battlefield out here in the west. A finals trip from the East is different than making the finals in the west in the last decade

#15 Bracus

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 09:35 AM

I guess you didn't read the post, lol. But to your point, Kobe never lead a team to a title that Phil wasn't at the healm. If I'm wrong, let me know, lol...


Sure, cause Jordan would've won a title with Rudy T, Smush, Mike Brown, and Kwame lmao. Horrible analysis.
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#16 Real Deal

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 09:52 AM

Age and injuries (which are going hand-in-hand) are hurting us the most right now, along with turnovers. We can look to Kobe and say he's a bad leader because this team is losing, but why not look over at Jordan's two years with a mediocre Wizards team and do the same with Mike? They won 37 games each season MJ was there, even though Jordan was still averaging 20+ and had the ability to drop a 50-point game.

Also, not all leaders have the ability (or the opportunity) to win championships. Nash and D'Antoni, together, found their way to the WCF. Those teams were full of shooters, and Amare, though...and the players that did play defense (Marion and Bell) weren't enough to make up for the defensive liabilities they put out on the court.

If the Wizards aren't good enough to consider (Jordan + scrubs), take a look at the Spurs. It wasn't too long ago that they lost to Memphis in the first round, as a #1 seeded team. With practically the same team, the Spurs' last championship AND NBA Finals visit came in 2007...five seasons ago. Who was the leader for those four championships...Duncan or Popovich? Both are still there.

#17 Nego

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 10:22 AM

It depends coaches do make an impact unless you got a lot of talent and luck for example Miami last year their coach is not exactly a good one yet they won with talent and luck that most of the best guys in the East were injured they didn't even face the Bulls and by the way they were almost eliminated a couple times vs the Pacers and Celtics. So in the Lakers case we have talent enough to do good we just aren't and then our coach can't find a way to make us play better defense which is what is hurting us.

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#18 Paris

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 10:38 AM

this seems like a kobe bashing thread imo. you say you think kobe can't win w/o phil then go on to state a guys name(MJ) who didn't win w/o phil either. if i got it all wrong let me know. and you say, yeah even tho magic and jordan won their titles with great coaches im convinced they didn't need great coaches, but go on to state kobe won his titles with a great coach, but i don't think kobe can win w/o phil. how did you come to this conclusion?


#19 Lords of the Rings

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Posted December 10, 2012 - 09:01 PM

I guess you didn't read the post, lol. But to your point, Kobe never lead a team to a title that Phil wasn't at the healm. If I'm wrong, let me know, lol...


Neither did MJ
So Mj wasn't a good leader???

Edited by Lords of the Rings, December 10, 2012 - 09:02 PM.

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