74 replies to this topic

[alec613]

Kobe's defense has been terrible this season. Doubt he'll get another defensive-team award this year

[Real Deal]

When we blew DEN out, how many points did Kobe have?

Kobe's needed to play PG right now, NOT scorer. We need a FLOOR GENERAL, which is what Kobe needs to do until Nash gets back.

Don't turn into one of those guys.

When we won five championships, how many points did Kobe average in those five seasons?

Hate to say it, but Kobe can't play PG. Playing PG, and being a facilitator, are two different things...very different. Kobe, facilitating, is something we've seen for many seasons. Kobe playing the PG position results in turnovers galore, because he can't drive to the rim like he used to, it makes him easier to defend, and it restricts him from being the best scoring threat on the court.

Your arguments reek of circular logic. Kobe's got to play like MJ offensively but who's going to play like Pip? MWP has to do all of the dirty work but Kobe's a better defender according to the stats? Does that make sense?

Jordan was one of the greatest defensive players in the history of the game, better than Pippen. Did you not watch the Bulls? Pippen eventually took the assignments, again, because Jordan wasn't going to go out and drop 30, defend the best player, run the offense, grab 10 rebounds, and shoot six threes.

And where you see me ask for Coach Nick's statistical analysis? I asked for the VIDEO analysis...ie the EYE TEST. Only because I'm too lazy to make the vids myself.

So he's wrong, but his videos will prove you right? Oh well, I don't even get any of that.

Go ahead and put your video together. I'll go pull all of Darius Morris' steals this season (15 of them), put them into a video, and show just how incredible he is defending other players. Make sure you don't miss a single slip-up of Kobe's in your video, though, and don't add ANYTHING that hints that he's a good defender.

Go ahead, get in the last word. I don't care to discuss it anymore. You think this, I prove that...kind of gets repetitive.

Can't wait for D'Antoni to take your advice and run the living [expletive] out of our players once Nash returns, by the way. Kobe, Ron, and Jamison really look like they are ready for that...you can just tell.

[GCMD]

Don't turn into one of those guys.

When we won five championships, how many points did Kobe average in those five seasons?

Hate to say it, but Kobe can't play PG. Playing PG, and being a facilitator, are two different things...very different. Kobe, facilitating, is something we've seen for many seasons. Kobe playing the PG position results in turnovers galore, because he can't drive to the rim like he used to, it makes him easier to defend, and it restricts him from being the best scoring threat on the court.

And again, something we should agree on, you want to argue about. Semantics. Kobe's not a PG but he's the best facilitator we have. Thank you for "correcting" me.

Facilitating is not the same as dropping 35 though...and right now, we need the former, not the latter.

Jordan was one of the greatest defensive players in the history of the game, better than Pippen. Did you not watch the Bulls? Pippen eventually took the assignments, again, because Jordan wasn't going to go out and drop 30, defend the best player, run the offense, grab 10 rebounds, and shoot six threes.

Nor did he have to. Pip was an excellent scorer also. But they divided the work so Pip was the lock down defender and MJ was the scorer...until Nash gets back, Kobe has to find the balance...he has to give us defense and facilitating. We don't have the personnel to split the load. And you're comparing facilitating in the triangle to this offense? Night and Day.

This team is loaded offensively. Kobe does NOT have to score in bunches for us to win.

So he's wrong, but his videos will prove you right? Oh well, I don't even get any of that.

Your words, not mine. I asked for the video evidence. I did NOT mention his stats or statistical analysis. That was ALL you. You're not pulling me into that.

I mentioned the eye test and how I believe it is more valid than stats because it puts the numbers in context. I believe that trying to dissect the worth of one player in a defensive scheme based on numbers is almost impossible to do accurately, especially when you factor in your inherent bias.

Go ahead and put your video together. I'll go pull all of Darius Morris' steals this season (15 of them), put them into a video, and show just how incredible he is defending other players. Make sure you don't miss a single slip-up of Kobe's in your video, though, and don't add ANYTHING that hints that he's a good defender.

Never said Kobe's not a good defender when he WANTS to be. I said Kobe's not trying to play defense right now. He is not sticking to what the TEAM should be doing. He's playing selfish and not helping, rotating or staying on his man. I'm saying we can't win if he's not committed to doing his part on that end.

When he wants to, he plays as well as anyone in the league defensively. I could say the same for 75% of the NBA. Most players have the raw tools to be great defenders...but if they don't put in the effort on a consistent basis, how can you claim they are playing good defensively? Or that they ARE good defenders? Being a good defender means getting stops. It means doing what it takes individually and collectively to ensure the team does not give a good shot in a possession. Kobe's not doing that right now.

Go ahead, get in the last word. I don't care to discuss it anymore. You think this, I prove that...kind of gets repetitive.

I'm not petty. I don't care about the last word nor do I care if you think you have "proven" something to me. I have presented as much "proof" as you have. If you don't want to discuss it, that's your prerogative. Just know that condescending statements are the root of most of the problems other less civil posters have with "vets" like us. I admit I sometimes do the same. Doesn't make it right or cute.

Can't wait for D'Antoni to take your advice and run the living [expletive] out of our players once Nash returns, by the way. Kobe, Ron, and Jamison really look like they are ready for that...you can just tell.

That's not my advice. Amazing how much of your post comes from imaginary conversations you think we've had...or statements you seem to think I've made. That's a little disturbing.

[Majesty]

Kobe's defense has been terrible this season. Doubt he'll get another defensive-team award this year

Edited by Majesty, December 06, 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[GCMD]

He'll get a 2nd team defensive honor based on reputation alone. Everyone knows that. He won't earn it though.

[Real Deal]

Kobe actually played the PG position a few times this year already, so when you specifically say that, I'm going to assume you mean it. Facilitating, and playing PG, aren't the same. LeBron will confirm that, and so will Tracy McGrady, if Kobe's career (since 1999) can't separate the two. My apologies for being too specific..that's me.

That's not my advice. Amazing how much of your post comes from imaginary conversations you think we've had...or statements you seem to think I've made. That's a little disturbing.

So you didn't say we should run Nash's offense?

-------

Let me get this straight: right now, Kobe Bryant is...

1) deciding to not play defense (despite the numbers showing he is + us being a good defensive team)
2) not passing the ball enough
3) not helping, rotating, OR staying on his man

Basically, he's one of the biggest reasons why we are 9-10 this season? And that's an assumption, of course...not exactly putting words into your mouth, but it sure does register as such.

When he wants to, he plays as well as anyone in the league defensively. I could say the same for 75% of the NBA.

So there are roughly 315 players in the NBA that have the potential to win a DPOY award? Please list them, and don't include Bargnani and Calderon.

You may not like the rebuttals, but I'm seriously wondering why you say some of this stuff...and then, turn around and expect everyone to believe that you, ignoring all statistics you can possibly dig up, are the guy that can watch 82 games and tell us exactly how good any player is WHILE arguing against those same statistics. That's like me walking up to my mother, who knows nothing about the NBA, and telling her that Ron Artest is shooting great this season. She asks, "What makes you say that?" I tell her, "Because that's what I see."

Unfortunately, your eyes are not a View-Master that we can purchase at the dollar store.

So, yeah...I see that we need work. What confirms that? We are 9-10, we turn the ball over far too much, and we don't have a legitimate third option, nor do we have Steve Nash running the offense we are being forced to play in. We stand top ten in both offense and defense, but should be better than that when looking at the individual numbers our four or five best players can potentially put up. Stats + eyes.

It's using this "eye test" + a statistical analysis that makes for a solid debate, not just shaking your head and telling me what you see. You'll sometimes see analysts on TV slam home certain stats (saying Kobe is shooting 43% and that he is done, but not considering his knee injury), but they are still making the attempt to do both, at the very least.

[GCMD]

I'm going to put everything I did NOT say in bold...

Kobe actually played the PG position a few times this year already, so when you specifically say that, I'm going to assume you mean it. Facilitating, and playing PG, aren't the same. LeBron will confirm that, and so will Tracy McGrady, if Kobe's career (since 1999) can't separate the two. My apologies for being too specific..that's me.

Playing PG and facilitating? Not the same. In the Triangle, he was a facilitator. That's what he's good at. Actual PG? He doesn't have the speed or athleticism anymore to take his man 1-on-1 off the dribble like he once could so that's not advisable. Can he do it in spots? Yes.

What I want to see is him setting the table for his teammates more. Get his team into a rhythm offensively which is what makes this offense hum. "The ball finds energy". That's not going to happen when Kobe's not passing the ball. Most of Kobe's scoring is coming from ISO's...also anti-MDA.

So you didn't say we should run Nash's offense?

-------

With Nash? Yes. MDA and Nash has also said that it will be faster but it won't be a full out sprint. That's also what I said. There will be plenty of times they can push the tempo and they should take advantage of it instead of walking the ball up the court just to control pace. That's not the same thing you said earlier.

Let me get this straight: right now, Kobe Bryant is...

1) deciding to not play defense (despite the numbers showing he is + us being a good defensive team)
2) not passing the ball enough
3) not helping, rotating, OR staying on his man

Yes
Yes
Yes. I said all of those things and taken in context, I stand behind every one of those statements. "Taken in context" is the most important part. The focus has to be on the team. Kobe has had a tendency to forget that. That is not good for the team or this offense.

Basically, he's one of the biggest reasons why we are 9-10 this season? And that's an assumption, of course...not exactly putting words into your mouth, but it sure does register as such.

I said no such thing. I have not blamed anyone for the downfall of the team. There are too many variables to point the finger at anyone player. In fact, I'm one of the people preaching patience.

Did I call Kobe out? Yes. Is he the only problem? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

So there are roughly 315 players in the NBA that have the potential to win a DPOY award? Please list them, and don't include Bargnani and Calderon.

LOL...you're hilarious! DPOY? No. That's WAY out of context. You're playing yourself now.

I said they could be good defenders. Play as well as anyone else. That's a LONG stretch from being a good defender to being the BEST defender in the league.

Stop reaching for arguments. You're too smart for that. You're better than that.

You may not like the rebuttals, but I'm seriously wondering why you say some of this stuff...and then, turn around and expect everyone to believe that you, ignoring all statistics you can possibly dig up, are the guy that can watch 82 games and tell us exactly how good any player is WHILE arguing against those same statistics. That's like me walking up to my mother, who knows nothing about the NBA, and telling her that Ron Artest is shooting great this season. She asks, "What makes you say that?" I tell her, "Because that's what I see."

Unfortunately, your eyes are not a View-Master that we can purchase at the dollar store.

I don't care about rebuttals. Nothing you say in jest or in debate will change how I feel about you. This is all in fun as fellow fans.

I never said stats have no use. I said stats can be manipulated based on the bias of the observer. I believe that stats can show TRENDS, not absolutes. You can tell what is LIKELY to work, not what works every time. Conversely, you can't tell how a player will or won't defend a given team based on a mix of small samples from different types of teams, against different types of offenses, against backups, against an injured player, against a new coach, against a player playing in a back-to-back game...there are too many variables to quantify one player's defense.

That's why stats (in this argument) are often misleading and useless. The EYE-TEST is often the determining factor for DPOY, not stats, though stats help determine the top players. If that weren't true, there would be no reason to VOTE for most NBA awards!!!! Why not just handed it out to the statistical leader like the scoring Champion?

Exactly.

So, yeah...I see that we need work. What confirms that? We are 9-10, we turn the ball over far too much, and we don't have a legitimate third option, nor do we have Steve Nash running the offense we are being forced to play in. We stand top ten in both offense and defense, but should be better than that when looking at the individual numbers our four or five best players can potentially put up. Stats + eyes.

It's using this "eye test" + a statistical analysis that makes for a solid debate, not just shaking your head and telling me what you see. You'll sometimes see analysts on TV slam home certain stats (saying Kobe is shooting 43% and that he is done, but not considering his knee injury), but they are still making the attempt to do both, at the very least.

I agree wholeheartedly. What I'm saying to you is the stats don't make sense. What you see is not what's happening on the court.

Dwight is a 3 time DPOY. He KNOWS defense. If Kobe were playing well defensively, you think they would be arguing?

And if you think Dwight JUST got fed up with Kobe, you're wrong. Dwight's not the type to jump down someone's throat over 1 missed assignment. Dwight has noticed this long enough to know that enough is enough.

And frankly, that's all I need to say. Dwight's Eye-Test trumps everything you have said or will say.
So most of your statements or basis for debate are inventions of your own imagination. We could spend the next 12 years doing this dance but it won't change anything.

[Real Deal]

Playing PG and facilitating? Not the same. In the Triangle, he was a facilitator. That's what he's good at. Actual PG? He doesn't have the speed or athleticism anymore to take his man 1-on-1 off the dribble like he once could so that's not advisable. Can he do it in spots? Yes.

What I want to see is him setting the table for his teammates more. Get his team into a rhythm offensively which is what makes this offense hum. "The ball finds energy". That's not going to happen when Kobe's not passing the ball. Most of Kobe's scoring is coming from ISO's...also anti-MDA.

That first paragraph...you said PG. You corrected yourself, but yeah, you said it. That's the only reason why I replied. Of course it's not the same thing...I said that twice.

Second paragraph...so you expect Kobe to change something he has done since 1999? Nope. Dwight Howard isn't going to average 30, and our bench has yet to prove they can step up and be a bench, even when Kobe did defer. We blew out Denver...big deal. Wasn't that the same game our bench gave us 50-60 points? Tell me how many times a bench does that in the NBA, for any team.

With Nash? Yes. MDA and Nash has also said that it will be faster but it won't be a full out sprint. That's also what I said. There will be plenty of times they can push the tempo and they should take advantage of it instead of walking the ball up the court just to control pace. That's not the same thing you said earlier.

I stated this, and I will copy/paste it.

Can't wait for D'Antoni to take your advice and run the living [expletive] out of our players once Nash returns, by the way. Kobe, Ron, and Jamison really look like they are ready for that...you can just tell.

So...with Nash? Yes, faster. Did you ever say we should run Nash's Phoenix offense? I believe you did, because I quoted you a few times in topics. I'm not going to bother looking unless you truly want me to. I distinctly remember you telling me that this team would be better off running with Nash, and I told you there was absolutely no way that could happen with Kobe, Artest, Gasol, and Jamison on this squad. Yes or no?

Yes
Yes
Yes. I said all of those things and taken in context, I stand behind every one of those statements. "Taken in context" is the most important part. The focus has to be on the team. Kobe has had a tendency to forget that. That is not good for the team or this offense.

I'm sorry, but if you think all of that, you MIGHT AS WELL (not that you did) say that he's the biggest reason for our struggles. He's supposedly selfish, he doesn't play defense, and he's lazy...and there's no reason to call him out and say he's at least one of, if not the, biggest reasons for the 9-10 record? Please.

LOL...you're hilarious! DPOY? No. That's WAY out of context. You're playing yourself now.

I said they could be good defenders. Play as well as anyone else. That's a LONG stretch from being a good defender to being the BEST defender in the league.

Stop reaching for arguments. You're too smart for that. You're better than that.

You're forcing me to quote you again now? Here...

When he wants to, he plays as well as anyone in the league defensively. I could say the same for 75% of the NBA.

That includes the best defender in the NBA, whoever that may be to you. Does it not? Will there be a DPOY this year, or no?

So, 75% of the players in the NBA can be as good, defensively, as LeBron James, Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Arron Afflalo? Anyone in the league? DPOY?

Otherwise, you had no reason to even say that.

And no, 75% of the league can't play defense the way Dwight, Kobe, or Ron plays it.

The EYE-TEST is often the determining factor for DPOY, not stats, though stats help determine the top players. If that weren't true, there would be no reason to VOTE for most NBA awards!!!! Why not just handed it out to the statistical leader like the scoring Champion?

If the eye test is the way to determine the DPOY, it must be the way to determine the All-Defensive teams.

Just to let you know, statistics are used heavily when determining the DPOY, the All-Defensive teams, the All-NBA, and even the MVP. There was an article written from ESPN or Yahoo (don't remember which, may have been from Woj) that stated the Chandler/LeBron debate for DPOY last year came down to advanced defensive numbers. Chandler held a high-percentage position to 46.5% FG and a low PER, while LeBron held his position to 46.4% FG and a low PER. Allowed RPG, allowed iFG%, turnovers created, points allowed, etc...were all compared to league averages at their positions. and those stats were available for those that voted.

Dwight is a 3 time DPOY. He KNOWS defense. If Kobe were playing well defensively, you think they would be arguing?

Yep. Kobe and Shaq both were incredible offensive players. Why did they argue?

And if you think Dwight JUST got fed up with Kobe, you're wrong. Dwight's not the type to jump down someone's throat over 1 missed assignment. Dwight has noticed this long enough to know that enough is enough.

LOL, of course he's not. Kobe just sucks at defense, and has for 19 games, right?

I wonder what's taking all of these voters so long to finally realize that Kobe isn't worthy of being mentioned on an all-defensive team?!?!

By the way...it's funny you bring that up, because Garnett busted Rondo's ass for allowing a wide-open layup before his suspension, even talked to him all the way to the bench. Garnett supposedly knows defense. No place for him to trash Rondo, who also knows defense.

You're making something out of nothing.

And frankly, that's all I need to say. Dwight's Eye-Test trumps everything you have said or will say.
So most of your statements or basis for debate are inventions of your own imagination. We could spend the next 12 years doing this dance but it won't change anything.

In other words, one incident where Dwight is frustrated, and has something to say to Kobe during an important play, means far too much to you.

Let me ask you something: why hasn't Dwight Howard done this with Pau Gasol? Why not Darius Morris? Why did he refuse to yell at very many of his Magic players, who were (for the most part) incredibly bad defenders? Explain.

[GCMD]

Real...

You really think anything you just posted made your argument any stronger?

Kobe playing PG? No.
Playing PHO offense? No.
75% of the NBA having the TOOLS to be DPOY? No.
Eye-Test being the only determinant of major NBA Awards? No.
Kobe and Shaq arguing as justification for Kobe/Dwight arguing? No
KG Rondo argument supposed to mean there's nothing to Dwight/Kobe argument? No


Dwight DID do that with Pau and other players on this team. Pau specifically. That was QUITE EVIDENT. He even mentioned it in an interview.

You've worn me down. I don't really care about winning this argument because it's not based on the truth. It's what you believe.

I'll say this and leave interpretation up to whomever reads it:

Kobe's not above the rest of the team. When he does something wrong, it's refreshing to see someone dig in his behind. Kobe has played lazy and BAD defense lately which hurts the team. Kobe has played selfish basketball at times when it would be better if he helped the team get into a good rhythm and trust the offense.

Dwight's blowup was good for them. I think Kobe needed it and the team will play better because of it. I think Kobe will learn that Dwight is the future and he will know what it feels like to have the team choose youth over age (Kobe over Shaq).

Kobe can be a great defender when he wants to...lately, he hasn't attempted to.


Everything I've said is clear. You like it? Cool. You don't? That's cool too.

[Real Deal]

Haha, I wasn't trying to make my initial argument any stronger with that last post...I was simply elaborating on everything you were replying to me about. What the...

Okay, whatever, lol.

[last stand 2.0]

Am I the only one who likes this. Love to hear Dwight getting at Kobe. Shows he has some balls.

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

Am I the only one who likes this. Love to hear Dwight getting at Kobe. Shows he has some balls.

No, I love it too. Kind of reminds me of Derek Fisher. Back when we won championships Fish wasn't afraid to stand up to Kobe. That's the kind of leadership you need in the locker room if you wanna be successful. Howard is gonna be out future franchise player so it's important that he is a quality leader too and from the looks of it he is.

Edited by Cowboys&LakersFan, December 06, 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Majesty]

The 4 teams in the NBA that rank in the top 10 offensively and defensively

Team OffRtg Rank DefRtg Rank NetRtg Rank
Oklahoma City 110.9 1 99.5 9 +11.5 1
L.A. Clippers 106.5 4 99.2 7 +7.2 3
San Antonio 105.2 6 98.6 5 +6.6 6
L.A. Lakers 105.5 5 99.3 8 +6.1 7

But of course it has EVERYTHING to do with Dwight Howard eventhough he doesn't defend our perimeter when that is Kobe and Ron's job but Kobe is just a lazy defender and Artest is carrying him correct?

Edited by Majesty, December 06, 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Majesty]

And I'm sorry but I'm gonna throw this out there too

The Lakers have been better defensively with Bryant on the floor (allowing 97.8 points per 100 possessions) than with Howard on the floor (99.5)

Game. Set. Match. Done.

[fozi]

Enjoyed the discussion ! really did.

Actually Kobe played bad since Pacers. We know what Kobe is capable of doing, but i cant stand watching him play by himself.


You have to integrate others, you may carry the team for what 5 7 10 games. But you cant do that by yourself all the way to the playoffs when we need a healthy Bryant but instead he gets burned out.

Kobe hasn't blocked a shot yet. From what i have seen, he is not trying enough on defense. Yeah you're 34, i don't ask for too much, but i can see him doing better in a balanced way on both ends(65% O , 35% D ? i don't mind at all ) by using him correctly in addition to Nash's return, but what frustrates me, again , and i have said it million of times here in the forum, YOU CANT BE A CHAMPION CALIBER WHEN YOU DEPEND ON A 38 OLD GUY.


What caught to me is, on offense Both Kobe and Dwight take turns ! their game isn't flowing together, hopefully not yet.


Looking forward to seeing more of those discussions.

[Cj2008nw]

Real Deal's argument tactics.... "try to put words in your mouth or twist the meaning your trying to convey and post meaningless stats"
and then everybody eats it up


Kobe's on ball defense has not been as good of late and he hasn't been closing out on shooters....

He lets his man blow by him because he believes Dwight will destroy anything that comes to the paint but in turn he doesn't rotate to Dwight's man which is why they got into an argument last game.. smh

but all your stats will show us that though

Edited by Cj2008nw, December 07, 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Majesty]

Real Deal's argument tactics.... "try to put words in your mouth or twist the meaning your trying to convey and post meaningless stats"
and then everybody eats it up


Kobe's on ball defense has not been as good of late and he hasn't been closing out on shooters....

He lets his man blow by him because he believes Dwight will destroy anything that comes to the paint but in turn he doesn't rotate to Dwight's man which is why they got into an argument last game.. smh

but all your stats will show us that though

ahem

The Lakers have been better defensively with Bryant on the floor (allowing 97.8 points per 100 possessions) than with Howard on the floor (99.5)

now stop being mad because you can't beat RD in a debate. And Dwight has nothing to do with guarding the perimeter. Just stop.

[Cj2008nw]

ahem

[/size]

now stop being mad because you can't beat RD in a debate. And Dwight has nothing to do with guarding the perimeter. Just stop.

so you post a stat? when I just explained what pretty much happens in the game... and it seems like you are riding RD now LOL and I don't think he beats anybody in a argument he post stats and tries to imply things that you never said

[Majesty]

so you post a stat? when I just explained what pretty much happens in the game... and it seems like you are riding RD now LOL and I don't think he beats anybody in a argument he post stats and tries to imply things that you never said

Yeah I post a stat because it's factual evidence over the course of every game that outweighs the one or two times per game you say he 'gets lost' and that it's only because Dwight is on the court.

While I just showed you a stat that shows that Kobe is still as dominant defensively when Dwight is on the bench pretty much killing your argument and the above's.

You just get mad every time a stat proves you wrong yet you're the first person to reach for stats when you want to try to prove you're right.

The act is getting tired.

The whole "the only way you win debates is by posting facts that back up your argument." is like saying "You only won the fight because you punched me hard in the face."

Edited by Majesty, December 07, 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Cj2008nw]

Yeah I post a stat because it's factual evidence over the course of every game that outweighs the one or two times per game you say he 'gets lost' and that it's only because Dwight is on the court.

While I just showed you a stat that shows that Kobe is still as dominant defensively when Dwight is on the bench pretty much killing your argument and the above's.

You just get mad every time a stat proves you wrong yet you're the first person to reach for stats when you want to try to prove you're right.

The act is getting tired.

The whole "the only way you win debates is by posting facts that back up your argument." is like saying "You only won the fight because you punched me hard in the face."

I don't believe in stats when I actually SEE something on the court.
and the stats I usually post are just box score stats I don't think I have posted any advanced statistics or anything like that

you can't crunch numbers in basketball like you can in baseball... it doesn't take in account for mental lapses or blown coverages...

Edited by Cj2008nw, December 07, 2012 - 12:43 PM.