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Kobe, Dwight argue over defensive breakdowns


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#21 GCMD

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 09:47 PM

Dwight's right...
Kobe's wrong...


Period.

#22 Majesty

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 10:12 PM

Doesn't change the fact that he has been lazy on defense.

Houston and Magic game, he literally stopped playing defense at the end of the game.


Apparently he's not lazy on defense enough. Because he's statistically one of the best defenders in the league this year. So if he's lazy on defense it's not as terrible as you wish it was to make your point.

Well sorry to disappoint you but he's one of the top defenders in the league this year.

Actually his defensive statistics this year are better than Lebron(who is always in DPOY discussions)'s has been at their HIGHEST so yeah... perhaps you should rethink what you're saying.

Kobe's defensive numbers this year are one of the best in the league. So yeah... sorry he's not as lazy as you think. Sorry to disappoint you.

Doesn't mean I don't want him to work on some of his lapses. But I'm not about to act like he hasn't been a good defender this year and not top in the league, because he has been. Trying to act any different would be dumb.


Yea the last few years he's been kinda lagging,lazy(despite stats) and i know that Kobe can still play great defense when HE WANTS TOO, I saw some of it in the olympics.It's good that they can talk to each about problems like this in-game but you just have to make sure it's constructive criticism and not finger pointing after awhile


Stopped there.

Edited by Majesty, December 05, 2012 - 10:16 PM.

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#23 LakeShow805

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 10:19 PM

Apparently he's not lazy on defense enough. Because he's statistically one of the best defenders in the league this year. So if he's lazy on defense it's not as terrible as you wish it was to make your point.

Well sorry to disappoint you but he's one of the top defenders in the league this year.

Actually his defensive statistics this year are better than Lebron(who is always in DPOY discussions)'s has been at their HIGHEST so yeah... perhaps you should rethink what you're saying.

Kobe's defensive numbers this year are one of the best in the league. So yeah... sorry he's not as lazy as you think. Sorry to disappoint you.

Doesn't mean I don't want him to work on some of his lapses. But I'm not about to act like he hasn't been a good defender this year and not top in the league, because he has been. Trying to act any different would be dumb.

Watch the ending of the last two games again. Kobe's defense is non-existent.

However, I do believe he will start putting more effort back into the defensive end again once Nash gets backs because he will no longer have to facilitate as much.

#24 DanishLakerFan

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 10:20 PM

Apparently he's not lazy on defense enough. Because he's statistically one of the best defenders in the league this year. So if he's lazy on defense it's not as terrible as you wish it was to make your point.

Well sorry to disappoint you but he's one of the top defenders in the league this year.

Actually his defensive statistics this year are better than Lebron(who is always in DPOY discussions)'s has been at their HIGHEST so yeah... perhaps you should rethink what you're saying.

Kobe's defensive numbers this year are one of the best in the league. So yeah... sorry he's not as lazy as you think. Sorry to disappoint you.

Defensive stats are extremely hard to quantify. I'm guessing you're using 82games.com, which is a decent site, but looking at only at opponent production and you'll find that Mike Dunleavy, Monta Ellis and David West are amont the Elite defenders, which they certainly are not.
Kobe have been lazy on the defensive end lately even if his defensive stats say differently.

#25 androsays

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 10:25 PM

Stop pointing to his defensive stats. A huge part of that is because of Dwight Howard's presence.

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#26 Red September

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 10:54 PM

I think this is a great for both players and the team. Howard isnt steppin down to kobe.. vice versa.

They're both aruguin over defense. love it. keep em coming

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#27 Real Deal

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 10:57 PM

Just an FYI, David West is playing good defense this season. Numbers don't tell all, of course, because he does have to switch off his man quite a bit (and finds his guy scoring on a smaller Hill or Stephenson), but Vogel has that entire Pacers team playing very good defense. They are second in the NBA (defensively) for a reason.

Meanwhile, in Milwaukee, Monta Ellis is actually a decent defender...not great, though. His opponents are shooting around 50% on him, despite the low PER.

Mike Dunleavy shouldn't be in the conversation. He's not a starter. If you're coming off the bench, it's likely you're defending other bad offensive players, so there's no point in analyzing their play.

------------

In regards to having Dwight behind him...well, Kobe's defensive numbers last season were actually similar to his this year...and some of the best of his career (46.4% FG and 11.8 PER). That's without Dwight Howard.

So, sure...Dwight does help defensive numbers, but he doesn't defend the perimeter, and the Lakers are defending the perimeter (three point shooting) as the 6th best team doing so in the NBA, thanks to Kobe and Artest.

If Howard helps anyone's numbers THAT much, it would be Morris and Gasol. Point guards are attacking us, and Howard is always coming over to help at the rim against them...and he'll sometimes leave his man to help Gasol.

I mean...yeah, we will remember the time Danny Green slipped through with a screen, shook Kobe off long enough to hit the game-winning shot on us a few games ago, but you aren't going to remember how many times a team has had to reset their offense and settle for a low-percentage shot because of Bryant's high IQ back on defense.

If Dwight was 100%, and if Kobe hadn't played the defense he did last year (similar numbers), you guys would have a point...but it's not like that, so there needs to be a better argument if you're going to go toe-to-toe with those kind of defensive numbers from a player who is widely known, by knowledgeable basketball coaches and GM's (not just message board members), as one of the best perimeter defenders in the last couple of decades.

#28 DanishLakerFan

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Posted December 05, 2012 - 11:35 PM

I'm seriously not saying that those guys weren't capable of playing defense. I was trying to point out that people should be a bit carefull when using defensive stats from a site like 82games because these stats doesnt tell the whole story. These 3 guys (West, Ellis, Dunleavy) are in my opinion examples of players who have inflated defensive stats.

Kobe IS a good defender, but he still misses assignments and gamble a bit too much, which he shouldn't. And IMO he isn't excused just because of his history as a defender or his stats on 82games.

#29 bigfetz

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 12:30 AM

Kobe overall plays pretty good D but he does tend to have times where he sleeps on D and they get a few 3's on us. Happen a few times in the past few games. Still rather have him as a defender then most players in the league.

#30 fido

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 10:23 AM

I like arguing it shows communication.

It's when a team is dead quiet or tight lipped about stuff when you have to worry.

#31 West Coast

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 10:35 AM

Kobe said it himself earlier in the season that Dwight needed to be more of an [expletive] on the court.

I'm glad that someone has the balls to step up and call out Kobe. It's something this team hasn't had in awhile

#32 GCMD

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 10:54 AM

I'm sorry but I don't know how anyone as smart as some posters on this site are can argue that Kobe's been a good defender this year. Kobe's defense has STUNK it up to high heaven.

Kobe isn't just playing bad 1-on-1 defense, he's allowing SHOOTERS to run thru screens while he gets caught watching the ball. When his teammates rotate over to try to help, Kobe stands and watches as the pass is swung and ANOTHER player gets a wide open shot.


I called out Pau for playing like crap defensively because it was TRUE.
I'm doing the same with Kobe.

Truth is truth. I don't care if he's your favorite player or the reason you're a Laker fan. The dude is playing selfish and lazy defensively.


This is the ONLY reason Derek Fisher was so valuable to this team. He had NO PROBLEM putting Kobe in his place. Without him, Kobe's become a tyrant and a despot. He NEEDS to be taken down a notch and held accountable.

The team will only play as well defensively as it's weakest link...and right now, that's Kobe. Kobe COULD be the best perimeter defender on the team...IF he tried...and right now, he's not ATTEMPTING to try.

#33 GCMD

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 10:59 AM

Where is that Coach Nick guy when you need him? I wish he made a video about Kobe's defense...that would shut this thing down real proper like...


Heck, how do you stat guys explain MWP switching off onto HARDEN? Or Klay Thompson? Or Delfino? Gallinari? Toney Douglas? Anyone that starts lighting the Lakers up when Kobe's guarding them, the Lakers put MWP on them and switch Kobe off to another less important scorer...

Explain that...

#34 True Lakers Fan

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 11:10 AM

If we would've lost that game. this argument would have been blown up by the media

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#35 Real Deal

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 11:20 AM

Where is that Coach Nick guy when you need him? I wish he made a video about Kobe's defense...that would shut this thing down real proper like...

Heck, how do you stat guys explain MWP switching off onto HARDEN? Or Klay Thompson? Or Delfino? Gallinari? Toney Douglas? Anyone that starts lighting the Lakers up when Kobe's guarding them, the Lakers put MWP on them and switch Kobe off to another less important scorer...

Explain that...

So Ron Artest is going to drop 35+ a night, while Kobe takes Ron's role to spot up and shoot threes all game long, and defend elites?

Tell me why Scottie Pippen took the assignments he did, even when Jordan was in his prime.

-----------

As far as us letting shooters rock us...well, you don't like stats unless they are definitive, so explain why we are doing pretty damn good holding teams to low percentage shooting, both from inside the arc to strictly three-point shooting (which we actually defend better).

If you want to ignore those percentages, also, then you might as well ignore all stats, and roll along assuming you know more than most all coaches that continuously (and sometimes unnecessarily) use screens to shake Kobe from his man...and then all GM's who vote Kobe in as an all-team defender every year.

By the way, I don't defend Kobe because he's my favorite player. I defend what I see, both in the game and statistically. Some people just like to argue because they can't find answers to their earlier predictions of this team actually being pretty damn good with the coach they hired and the system they are putting into play. Kobe has been horrible shooting the ball over the last two years, and if I was biased, I would never say that...I'm sure someone like you didn't want to ignore that statistic when things seemed to be in the air, and some didn't want to admit that our struggles were due to us trying to play through a center who had no business being a primary scoring option on a contending team (as I repeated hundreds of times).

I'm not surprised at any of this, though. And Coach Nick? Haha, okay...here ya go:

In our breakdown of why Mike Brown was fired, we made it clear that the offense was never the issue with this particular team. Even with Steve Nash sidelined for 80% of the games played this year, the offense was still ranked 12th overall. With Pau Gasol, Kobe Bryant, and Dwight Howard, there is an overwhelming amount of talent scoring the basketball. It was the defense that so clearly was a problem.

Ah, so Coach Nick uses Offensive Rating? LOL...I thought this was a bad thing? I thought our defensive rating meant nothing, because all it was...was stats?

Here's "Coach Nick" talking about the Lakers' Princeton offense, and why it wasn't the problem (something you would most certainly disagree with, correct?):

http://www.bballbrea...not-the-problem

Lots of stats there!

Fair to say you'll only agree with Coach Nick's statistical analysis when it's in your favor, or...?

Maybe it's me who should be questioning where YOU stand.

Coach Nick...lol, please.

#36 West Coast

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 11:48 AM

RT @johnschuhmann: Riffing off of @KevinDing, a Film Study look at why Dwight was mad at Kobe last night: http://t.co/knJU4Art



#37 haztronic

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 11:57 AM

ESPN NBA.com has a poll up on their website asking if the argument between the two was a "sign of competitiveness" or a "sign of dysfunction", and the whole of the US except for California thinks it shows a sign of dysfunction. Haha I kind of expected that, all the haters will do what it takes to put us down.
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#38 GCMD

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 12:05 PM

So Ron Artest is going to drop 35+ a night, while Kobe takes Ron's role to spot up and shoot threes all game long, and defend elites?

Tell me why Scottie Pippen took the assignments he did, even when Jordan was in his prime.

-----------

As far as us letting shooters rock us...well, you don't like stats unless they are definitive, so explain why we are doing pretty damn good holding teams to low percentage shooting, both from inside the arc to strictly three-point shooting (which we actually defend better).

If you want to ignore those percentages, also, then you might as well ignore all stats, and roll along assuming you know more than most all coaches that continuously (and sometimes unnecessarily) use screens to shake Kobe from his man...and then all GM's who vote Kobe in as an all-team defender every year.

By the way, I don't defend Kobe because he's my favorite player. I defend what I see, both in the game and statistically. Some people just like to argue because they can't find answers to their earlier predictions of this team actually being pretty damn good with the coach they hired and the system they are putting into play. Kobe has been horrible shooting the ball over the last two years, and if I was biased, I would never say that...I'm sure someone like you didn't want to ignore that statistic when things seemed to be in the air, and some didn't want to admit that our struggles were due to us trying to play through a center who had no business being a primary scoring option on a contending team (as I repeated hundreds of times).

I'm not surprised at any of this, though. And Coach Nick? Haha, okay...here ya go:


Ah, so Coach Nick uses Offensive Rating? LOL...I thought this was a bad thing? I thought our defensive rating meant nothing, because all it was...was stats?

Here's "Coach Nick" talking about the Lakers' Princeton offense, and why it wasn't the problem (something you would most certainly disagree with, correct?):

http://www.bballbrea...not-the-problem

Lots of stats there!

Fair to say you'll only agree with Coach Nick's statistical analysis when it's in your favor, or...?

Maybe it's me who should be questioning where YOU stand.

Coach Nick...lol, please.


When we blew DEN out, how many points did Kobe have?

Kobe's needed to play PG right now, NOT scorer. We need a FLOOR GENERAL, which is what Kobe needs to do until Nash gets back.

When Kobe goes Kobe, the rest of the team suffers. Dwight doesn't get good touches, the rest of the team is out of sync and out of rhythm, the offense is abandoned.

MWP doesn't play lead guard like Pip did.
Kobe doesn't HAVE to score 35+ppg like MJ did.

Your arguments reek of circular logic. Kobe's got to play like MJ offensively but who's going to play like Pip? MWP has to do all of the dirty work but Kobe's a better defender according to the stats? Does that make sense?

Kobe NORMALLY RELISHES the challenge of guarding the other team's best player. It's normally KOBE getting switched on to players who are going off on us. He has the ABILITY to be a lockdown defender...he's just not trying. That's what I've said over and over.

And where you see me ask for Coach Nick's statistical analysis? I asked for the VIDEO analysis...ie the EYE TEST. Only because I'm too lazy to make the vids myself.

There is NO CONFUSION where I stand. If you stop trying to see something that's not there, you will read my post for what it really is and that's as close to objectivity as I can get right now. I love Kobe. He's my favorite player in the game right now because of his work ethic and attention to detail. He's type-A, a perfectionist. I like and respect that. But when he's playing like a scrub defensively, I'm going to call him a scrub defensively.

The stats are misleading and if I didn't hate putting together a bunch of clips and waiting on my computer to encode the video, I'd PROVE it to you.

Some stats are good...but there are good ONLY when taken in context and used as a reference point for TRENDS, not absolutes. There are too many variables in team sports to try to determine statistically a person's worth defensively using ONLY numbers.

Pau is one of the worst post defenders (of our 4/5 rotation) on our squad...the stats say otherwise. Not their fault. You can make the numbers say anything if you really want to. The eye test is raw. It can insert and remove extraneous variables instantly...something stats can't do.

#39 GCMD

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 12:10 PM


And those aren't even the best examples of Kobe "floating".

I know high school coaches who teach better fundamentals than that. That's not MDA's fault. Kobe, as a seasoned vet, knows better than that.

#40 LakeShow805

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Posted December 06, 2012 - 12:15 PM

I think Kobe had been playing pretty good defense in the beginning of the season. But the past 3 games, you can tell he is not really trying.
Look at the ending of the Magic and Houston game. He completely stopped playing defense




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