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Are The Knicks For Real?


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#1 Cowboys&LakersFan

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 10:49 AM

The New York Knicks are undefeated at 6-0, the only undefeated team in the league. Two big wins against Miami and San Antonio and they play Memphis tonight. Are they a legit contender in your mind? Personally I have to see how they play once Amare gets back before I say they're a legit contender, but they're certainly playing very good basketball.
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#2 Real Deal

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:00 AM

As long as they are playing Carmelo at the four, they are contenders.

I'll let that soak in, when everyone starts talking about Amare.

#3 bigvee

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:06 AM

As long as they are playing Carmelo at the four, they are contenders.

I'll let that soak in, when everyone starts talking about Amare.

Care to explain? I don't see how they'll win in the playoffs with Carmelo guarding opposing teams 4 (unless we're talking about the Heat), and having bigger guys guarding Melo, making it harder for him to score in the post.

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#4 NYCLakerfan

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:20 AM

As long as they are playing Carmelo at the four, they are contenders.

I'll let that soak in, when everyone starts talking about Amare.


I usually agree with you basketball opinions but I don't think melo can hold up playing the 4 all year, in the past 2 games he's look a little sluggish I think having to guard guys bigger than him even though he's capable takes a toll on his energy. I can't see him playing his best if he has to play the 4 exclusively all year. He even said himself he'd rather play the 3 than 4 I think thats why.

I think when Amare comes back he should start but play the majority of his minutes with the bench. I think he should start so Melo doesn't have to start out at the 4 but move to it later in games, they have to get some chemistry together because in the 4th quarter their gonne be on the court together so they need to establish that chemistry early, and I think Amare would play a lot better being the number 1 option playing most of his minutes with the bench plus it would make their bench stronger having a go to guy in Amare.

But I think the Knicks are contenders I mean in the East the only team I can see being better is Miami, but they do have questions the Amare/Melo chemistry, Amare's defense, Amare's health, the age of some of their players, scoring in the paint(that won't prob be a problem when Amare comes back tho) and overall rebounding.

Edited by NYCLakerfan, November 16, 2012 - 11:24 AM.


#5 Real Deal

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:25 AM

Care to explain? I don't see how they'll win in the playoffs with Carmelo guarding opposing teams 4 (unless we're talking about the Heat), and having bigger guys guarding Melo, making it harder for him to score in the post.

Well...

Heat - LeBron
Celtics - Bass
Hawks - Smith
Bulls - Boozer
Indiana - West
Nets - Humphries
Sixers - Young

There isn't much to worry about there. Melo is 6-8 and 230. Hump is 6-9 and 235. Boozer probably has the biggest advantage there, at 6-9 and 265...but he's a jumpshooter. Same with West. LeBron defends all of those guys easily.

Melo has an easier time defending the physical players. The quicker they get, the tougher the defense for him. He's no Durant...he actually has meat on his bones, strong base, and can hold his own.

#6 NYCLakerfan

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:34 AM

Well...

Heat - LeBron
Celtics - Bass
Hawks - Smith
Bulls - Boozer
Indiana - West
Nets - Humphries
Sixers - Young

There isn't much to worry about there. Melo is 6-8 and 230. Hump is 6-9 and 235. Boozer probably has the biggest advantage there, at 6-9 and 265...but he's a jumpshooter. Same with West. LeBron defends all of those guys easily.

Melo has an easier time defending the physical players. The quicker they get, the tougher the defense for him. He's no Durant...he actually has meat on his bones, strong base, and can hold his own.


I think Melo can do it but I don't think he can do it and continue to play his best all year on the both ends, I know he's mad strong but he's not Lebron who has the endurance to do that plus doesn't Shane Battier guard 4's for most of Heat games.

I think Melo should play a lot at 4 because he is so effective there but I think in the long run if he plays exclusively at the 4 it's gonna wear on him.

#7 Real Deal

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:35 AM

I usually agree with you basketball opinions but I don't think melo can hold up playing the 4 all year, in the past 2 games he's look a little sluggish I think having to guard guys bigger than him even though he's capable takes a toll on his energy. I can't see him playing his best if he has to play the 4 exclusively all year. He even said himself he'd rather play the 3 than 4 I think thats why.

Of course he's slowing down...he's taking 19.7 shots a night (third highest of his career), and 4.8 threes per game (highest), and 37.7 MPG (third highest). He's also pulling down over eight rebounds a night (career high) because he's on the glass more, being closer to the rim.

LeBron would rather play the three, also, but the Heat are most dangerous when small. LeBron crashes the boards easier, he's a dangerous post player who had the highest post FG% in the league (even including centers), and he drew defenders in to create openings for his teammates.

If Carmelo is playing the three, their 42% 3PT% (2nd in the NBA) falls back down to where it was last season (34%, 21st in the NBA), because defenders are pulled back out to line the perimeter, and Melo has to make a cross-court pass to an open shooter, instead of one 15 feet away. Spacing is the biggest difference, not Melo's production...and that's why the Knicks beat the Spurs last night, despite Melo's nine points.

At some point, Carmelo needs to realize that he has to do more than just score the ball. Him at the three, trying to be the Carmelo from Denver, is why the Knicks were so easy to defend last season, and why that team did so well when they put the ball in a PG's hands (Lin, and now Felton) while Carmelo played off the ball and did things a bit differently.

#8 Real Deal

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:43 AM

Well, basically...it's either Melo leaks back to the three, and the perimeter play, to sacrifice their three-point shooting...or he stays at the four. It's the three-point shooting, and not having Amare as a defensive liability out there, that has turned the Knicks into the best team in the league, though...because right now, they are ranked 1st in offense (17th last year) and 2nd defensively, up from 5th (and that's because of Chandler and Shumpert).

That's not saying Amare is bad for the Knicks, or for any team...but for the current make-up, he doesn't fit...doesn't matter how Melo plays, either. That duo will never work because Amare is basically a taller version of Anthony on offense, in regards to not creating for anyone and wanting to attack once the ball is in their hands. At least the Knicks can work off of Melo as a threat at the four, because it collapses the defense, just like the Thunder had to deal with when LeBron was posting up, and guys like Battier and Miller were raining threes.

If they want to ruin that, just so Carmelo can ISO more on the perimeter, that will be the death of the Knicks.

#9 NYCLakerfan

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:46 AM

Of course he's slowing down...he's taking 19.7 shots a night (third highest of his career), and 4.8 threes per game (highest), and 37.7 MPG (third highest). He's also pulling down over eight rebounds a night (career high) because he's on the glass more, being closer to the rim.

LeBron would rather play the three, also, but the Heat are most dangerous when small. LeBron crashes the boards easier, he's a dangerous post player who had the highest post FG% in the league (even including centers), and he drew defenders in to create openings for his teammates.

If Carmelo is playing the three, their 42% 3PT% (2nd in the NBA) falls back down to where it was last season (34%, 21st in the NBA), because defenders are pulled back out to line the perimeter, and Melo has to make a cross-court pass to an open shooter, instead of one 15 feet away. Spacing is the biggest difference, not Melo's production...and that's why the Knicks beat the Spurs last night, despite Melo's nine points.

At some point, Carmelo needs to realize that he has to do more than just score the ball. Him at the three, trying to be the Carmelo from Denver, is why the Knicks were so easy to defend last season, and why that team did so well when they put the ball in a PG's hands (Lin, and now Felton) while Carmelo played off the ball and did things a bit differently.


I don't think Melo being at 3 is gonna cause the Knicks to revert back to the same squad as last year, their not playing better solely on the fact he's at the 4 they have a better more experienced team this year. Their 3 point shooting and things like that prob will drop off but I don't think it's going to be that dramatic as to go from 2nd to 21st thats too dramatic. And even with him taking more shots having to guard guys bigger than you and just as strong sometimes stronger trying to muscle them around in the paint then come back and be expected to be the best or 2nd best scorer in the game is gonna be tough if he has to do it all year.

Play Melo at the 4 a lot but not exclusively thats all I'm saying, kinda like Miami they play Lebron at the 4 a lot but not exclusively.

#10 Cj2008nw

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:47 AM

As long as they are playing Carmelo at the four, they are contenders.

I'll let that soak in, when everyone starts talking about Amare.


The Knicks are a better team when Melo is at the 4

#11 Cj2008nw

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:48 AM

I'm not putting Knicks as a contender till post All-Star break it's too early to say if they are contenders I think the Hornets one year where 14-0 at one point and still were an 8th seed when playoffs came around

#12 NYCLakerfan

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 11:50 AM

Well, basically...it's either Melo leaks back to the three, and the perimeter play, to sacrifice their three-point shooting...or he stays at the four. It's the three-point shooting, and not having Amare as a defensive liability out there, that has turned the Knicks into the best team in the league, though...because right now, they are ranked 1st in offense (17th last year) and 2nd defensively, up from 5th (and that's because of Chandler and Shumpert).

That's not saying Amare is bad for the Knicks, or for any team...but for the current make-up, he doesn't fit...doesn't matter how Melo plays, either. That duo will never work because Amare is basically a taller version of Anthony on offense, in regards to not creating for anyone and wanting to attack once the ball is in their hands. At least the Knicks can work off of Melo as a threat at the four, because it collapses the defense, just like the Thunder had to deal with when LeBron was posting up, and guys like Battier and Miller were raining threes.

If they want to ruin that, just so Carmelo can ISO more on the perimeter, that will be the death of the Knicks.


But the fact of the matter is they have Amare and unless they can trade him which I can't see because of his huge uninsured contract, health issues, and sub par year last season I doubt anybody is gonna willing to take that on. So since they have Amare him and Melo are going to have to find away in close games in the 4th we know their both gonna be out there they need to try to make it work and like I said I think you start them at their respective positions and as the game goes on you slide Melo to the 4 and Amare with the bench playing either the 4 or 5. And thats most likely what Mike Woodson is going to do based on what he says on the matter

#13 bigvee

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 12:44 PM

Well...

Heat - LeBron
Celtics - Bass
Hawks - Smith
Bulls - Boozer
Indiana - West
Nets - Humphries
Sixers - Young

There isn't much to worry about there. Melo is 6-8 and 230. Hump is 6-9 and 235. Boozer probably has the biggest advantage there, at 6-9 and 265...but he's a jumpshooter. Same with West. LeBron defends all of those guys easily.

Melo has an easier time defending the physical players. The quicker they get, the tougher the defense for him. He's no Durant...he actually has meat on his bones, strong base, and can hold his own.

Personally I think Carmelo scored so easily because most small forwards couldn't guard his strength in the post. Putting bigger guys on him would only make it harder for him to score.

LeBron and Josh Smith can give him problems backing down, forcing him to take more outside shots. I know he can hit them, but he's most effective in the post. Boozer and Taj Gibson would force him to try to pass them on a iso dribble drive. It could work, but he'd be worn out trying to guard those guys on the other side.

I don't completely disagree with you, I think it can work under various scenarios, I just don't think he'll continue to be as effective in the playoffs with a larger defender on him.

#14 Klewfish

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 01:57 PM

Gotta agree with RD here, the Knicks played their best basketball of the season last year with Amare out and Carmelo at the 4, and are off to a great start this year under the same circumstances. The Knicks reloaded, JR Smith is playing out of his mind, but just the chemistry of the team and the way they can run their offense has a lot to do with Carmelo playing the 4. I think when Amare comes back it's going to get messed up again and they will struggle to incorporate him into the team. He's obviously not a bad player, just not a good fit for this team. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but I doubt it.
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#15 Real Deal

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 02:35 PM

Personally I think Carmelo scored so easily because most small forwards couldn't guard his strength in the post. Putting bigger guys on him would only make it harder for him to score.

You bring up Boozer (well, I did...but I'm going to touch on your post a bit)...

Chicago would want to go small against the Knicks. They would stick Deng on Melo, and suddenly, that leaves no room for Gibson or Boozer...which is another reason why the Knicks are undefeated right now.

I mean, LeBron and Josh Smith are going to defend Melo no matter what. So will Durant. The Thunder were forced into playing small against the Heat for the same reason...Durant played the four sometimes. Collison was at the five. When it was Perkins and Collison, the Heat murdered OKC, because half of the time, Perkins found himself on Shane Battier...who stood outside and dropped bombs.

You don't necessarily have to switch...but the Knicks are a very good offensive team, so suddenly, you don't have a choice. Can Boozer REALLY defend Carmelo Anthony? Melo doesn't necessarily have to post him up, as a PF...they can stick Chandler in the middle, and have Melo pull Boozer away from the rim, take him off the dribble, and it's an easy bucket or foul.

Today's game, athleticism and speed is more important than ever. Big men aren't. The two and three (SG and SF) may be the most important spots on the floor. Miami won their championship without a true center, and without an elite PG...and it's because they were able to play small ball. OKC got to the Finals without a center (Perkins is horrible now) and with a PG that is actually more of a two-guard.

The Knicks have been playing follow the leader...and it's working.

#16 Windu

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 02:45 PM

out-rebounded in every game?
Pau Gasol is TRASH

#17 bigvee

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 02:55 PM

You bring up Boozer (well, I did...but I'm going to touch on your post a bit)...

Chicago would want to go small against the Knicks. They would stick Deng on Melo, and suddenly, that leaves no room for Gibson or Boozer...which is another reason why the Knicks are undefeated right now.

I mean, LeBron and Josh Smith are going to defend Melo no matter what. So will Durant. The Thunder were forced into playing small against the Heat for the same reason...Durant played the four sometimes. Collison was at the five. When it was Perkins and Collison, the Heat murdered OKC, because half of the time, Perkins found himself on Shane Battier...who stood outside and dropped bombs.

You don't necessarily have to switch...but the Knicks are a very good offensive team, so suddenly, you don't have a choice. Can Boozer REALLY defend Carmelo Anthony? Melo doesn't necessarily have to post him up, as a PF...they can stick Chandler in the middle, and have Melo pull Boozer away from the rim, take him off the dribble, and it's an easy bucket or foul.

Today's game, athleticism and speed is more important than ever. Big men aren't. The two and three (SG and SF) may be the most important spots on the floor. Miami won their championship without a true center, and without an elite PG...and it's because they were able to play small ball. OKC got to the Finals without a center (Perkins is horrible now) and with a PG that is actually more of a two-guard.

The Knicks have been playing follow the leader...and it's working.

I guess I should have mentioned that I was arguing for the sake of Carmelo's effectiveness in the game, and not the effectiveness of a Knicks offense. However, I will continue to believe that come playoffs, Carmelo will have much more trouble guarding and posting up against the 4 than he did the 3.

Also, let's not forget that pretty much every offense will just run the PnR against these Knicks come playoffs to get Carmelo back onto a guarding the smaller guy, who could then take him off the dribble. I guess teams haven't been taking advantage of that in these 6 games. I didn't catch the Spurs game, but I'd like to see how many times Carmelo was caught guarding Duncan, and Tony Parker then took advantage of that PnR opportunity.

I think it's also safe to mention that Carmelo wouldn't be very effective going up against the power forwards of the West. Small ball worked for the Heat, in my oppinion, because they had the greatest matchup they could have had. I've said before, and I'll say it again; the Heat version of small ball should only continue to work until a team with a strong enough front court takes advantage. If the Lakers get the Heat in the finals, and we're looking at Battier/LeBron and Bosh guarding Dwight and Pau, Dwight should be able to get feeds from Nash all day and score with ease. I believe that if the Heat lose to a team like the Lakers, or any team with front court depth to take advantage of their style of play, we will see a move to bring a big man into Miami, and stop this small ball.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just don't think it'll pan out to work out in a playoff series.

LeBron James will NOT leave the Miami Heat.


#18 fido

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 05:31 PM

Early season fool's gold.

#19 Cj2008nw

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 07:01 PM

Early season fool's gold.

THIS

#20 Real Deal

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Posted November 16, 2012 - 07:04 PM

There's no doubt Melo won't be able to play the four against some teams, but for the most part, he'll get away with it because the lack of talent in NBA frontcourts (well, the lack of size + talent) is noticeable.

Would he be able to defend Pau Gasol? Probably not for an entire game. Blake Griffin? Nope. Tim Duncan? Nope. That's just the West for you, though...and if the Knicks get to the Finals (they won't), they will have one West team to go through, versus the three teams out East to get them there.




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