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Dwight Howard Needs More Touches


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#1 Cowboys&LakersFan

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 06:52 PM

I'm not too upset over last night's loss to the Clippers because I understand they have a very good basketball team and we were obviously missing one of our best players in Steve Nash, but one thing that really had me beside myself was Dwight Howard's lack of touches in the lost post and shot attempts. Howard only attempted 7 shots. That can't happen. It was a similar issue in Orlando for Howard. Part of the reason he left besides the obvious lack of a championship caliber supporting cast and horrible front office management was because so many times Dwight was wide open under the basket or had good position in the low post and he didn't get the ball.

When you have a guy like Howard who is without question the best big guy in the league you gotta get him the ball. Dwight has a huge advantage every single night. Basketball is simple when you play to your strengths and one of our biggest if not our biggest strength is having someone like Dwight who can go off for 30 and 20 on a given night. We need to get Dwight the basketball more. No if, ands, or butts about it. You get him the ball and not only will he be scoring on most possessions, but he'll draw consistent double and triple teams which will lead to wide open shots for the perimeter players. The Lakers clearly have several issues that needs to be fixed, but one of them includes not getting their superstar and future franchise player in Dwight Howard the basketball enough.

Edited by Cowboys&LakersFan, November 03, 2012 - 06:54 PM.

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#2 thrilla86

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 06:59 PM

The refs took Howard out of the game.

#3 ツ  

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 07:05 PM

Yup, Howard was in foul trouble all night long. And when he was in comfortable position to post up, either Blake or Morris would [expletive] up that inside pass.

#4 Cowboys&LakersFan

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 07:05 PM

The refs took Howard out of the game.

He still played 30 minutes and should've gotten more than 7 shot attempts.
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Posted November 03, 2012 - 07:10 PM

The refs took Howard out of the game.

Every game so far to be honest. Way too many ticky tacks.

yo.


#6 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 08:23 PM

High P&R would be nice. Only wish we had the personnel to run it. A smart guard and a mobile big man would do wonders for us in generating easy offensive opportunities to get us going. Wish we had a pair of players like that.

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 08:24 PM

High P&R would be nice. Only wish we had the personnel to run it. A smart guard and a mobile big man would do wonders for us in generating easy offensive opportunities to get us going. Wish we had a pair of players like that.

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#8 Cowboys&LakersFan

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 09:14 PM

High P&R would be nice. Only wish we had the personnel to run it. A smart guard and a mobile big man would do wonders for us in generating easy offensive opportunities to get us going. Wish we had a pair of players like that.

I see what you did there. :laughing:
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#9 Majesty

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Posted November 03, 2012 - 11:26 PM

High P&R would be nice. Only wish we had the personnel to run it. A smart guard and a mobile big man would do wonders for us in generating easy offensive opportunities to get us going. Wish we had a pair of players like that.


It's not like Nash is refusing to run it or anything :censored:

They defended Jordan Hill differently and when they did Kobe seemed to run it with him but.. it wasn't as effective, it's obviously there, but it seems they don't want to rely on it too much but the thing is if they want to improve on the Princeton they need to run it more.

Like Mike Brown said, making cuts, passing the ball, movement etc which they aren't doing in long enough stretches in the games.


Even so, their lack of fluidity yet leads to the turnovers that haunt us, as well as the lack of effort on the defensive end. The young players we do have are rarley beating opposition up the court when they are half a step ahead of them (hello Ebanks) and Pau if he's gonna suck defensively needs to be effective offensively. It strikes me hilarious that if he scored his usual 17 points we probably beat the Clippers despite Dwight's foul trouble :censored:

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#10 bigfetz

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 12:07 AM

He was getting doubled and was in foul trouble. Not putting in meeks really hurt us.We needed 3 point shooters to space out the defense.

#11 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 01:29 AM

It's not like Nash is refusing to run it or anything :censored:

They defended Jordan Hill differently and when they did Kobe seemed to run it with him but.. it wasn't as effective, it's obviously there, but it seems they don't want to rely on it too much but the thing is if they want to improve on the Princeton they need to run it more.

Like Mike Brown said, making cuts, passing the ball, movement etc which they aren't doing in long enough stretches in the games.

Nash is refusing to run it, cool. It's like a broken record at this point having read that in probably a dozen different posts. What has it done for us? We're sitting at 0-3 against teams we could have dismantled with ease. Awesome, it totally didn't backfire. :rolleyes:

So instead of exploiting the terrible defensive frontlines of the three teams we've played so far, all easily winnable games, we should veer completely away from the one play that would have broken the game wide open just to practice the new offense. We couldn't possibly build up a cushion and then look to practice running the offense, we had to do it right from the outset. Even if it meant falling behind by double digits early on and playing our injured shooting guard for 43 minutes in the last game in a desperate attempt to steal a win. That was the master plan courtesy of Mike Brown. We had Eddy Curry as the last line of defense for Dallas, a rookie center in Meyers Leonard for Portland, and DeAndre Jordan who is worthless defensively unless he's providing weakside help. Don't use our superstar center to punish the inferior frontlines, just run the offense instead. Genius.

When exactly is the point where we start looking for easier scoring opportunities? When Kobe is run into ground like last year? When the offense isn't doing its job for whatever reason, you go for something simpler that will work. I can tell you why Hill/Bryant P&R isn't as effective; Jordan Hill is not Dwight Howard. Running P&R with Jordan Hill is not the same thing as running it with Dwight Howard, the best finishing big man off P&R in the entire league.

We've had Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard on the floor at the same time for long stretches but we haven't seen a single high P&R play between the two since the preseason match against Sacramento. We certainly don't have any need for easy points on the offensive end. Playing through to the end of shot clocks, relying upon Kobe Bryant isolation, and giving the opposition easier transitional opportunities is so much better.

#12 Majesty

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 04:35 AM

Nash is refusing to run it, cool. It's like a broken record at this point having read that in probably a dozen different posts. What has it done for us? We're sitting at 0-3 against teams we could have dismantled with ease. Awesome, it totally didn't backfire. :rolleyes:

So instead of exploiting the terrible defensive frontlines of the three teams we've played so far, all easily winnable games, we should veer completely away from the one play that would have broken the game wide open just to practice the new offense. We couldn't possibly build up a cushion and then look to practice running the offense, we had to do it right from the outset. Even if it meant falling behind by double digits early on and playing our injured shooting guard for 43 minutes in the last game in a desperate attempt to steal a win. That was the master plan courtesy of Mike Brown. We had Eddy Curry as the last line of defense for Dallas, a rookie center in Meyers Leonard for Portland, and DeAndre Jordan who is worthless defensively unless he's providing weakside help. Don't use our superstar center to punish the inferior frontlines, just run the offense instead. Genius.

When exactly is the point where we start looking for easier scoring opportunities? When Kobe is run into ground like last year? When the offense isn't doing its job for whatever reason, you go for something simpler that will work. I can tell you why Hill/Bryant P&R isn't as effective; Jordan Hill is not Dwight Howard. Running P&R with Jordan Hill is not the same thing as running it with Dwight Howard, the best finishing big man off P&R in the entire league.

We've had Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard on the floor at the same time for long stretches but we haven't seen a single high P&R play between the two since the preseason match against Sacramento. We certainly don't have any need for easy points on the offensive end. Playing through to the end of shot clocks, relying upon Kobe Bryant isolation, and giving the opposition easier transitional opportunities is so much better.


You ever think that the rest of the team ALSO buys into the philosophy of wanting to get the system down instead of running PnR all day and night? Ever think the opinion of Nash is also the opinion of his teammates? That the team as a whole wants to get the system down before transitioning into just running PnR?

I think Kobe put it best on his facebook towards those like you, recently that question it :) GCMD already made great points against you in another thread that was basically my opinion so I won't rehash it here, you can respond to him there.

Anyway, Kobe's quote


"You have to know 400 notes that you can play, then pick the right four." - Miles Davis.

The process takes work and dedication, no matter the profession.
Mamba out


It seems to me like this team wants to get the system down rather than rely on Pick and Roll to net them early wins and would rather win with whatever this system is and getting it down.

Because in the long haul, if we went to a pick and Roll Mindset then by the time we wanted to run anything else our timing would be off, like it is right now. If they start winning games on pick and roll because they are struggling with the system then they're never going to learn that system and will overly rely on the pick and roll and then when comes time for the playoffs and the game slows down and they won't be able to run pick and roll much they are screwed. Ask Nash. Because it's happened to him every year, and he doesn't want to relive that. Which is probably another reason he's intent on himself and the team getting the system down to a tee first before running pick and roll(which they all are familiar with)

Even Phil Jackson has coached this way, but I am sure you're aware of it. Phil was always fine with losing early in the season while players got acclimated with a new system and worked on the mistakes they were making.

if we were running the same kind of "crappy" offense last year that Kobe had to hoise up 41% of his shots over then he wouldn't be shooting 67% right now thus far. What you're not taking into account is Kobe's movement off the ball, he and Pau(whom both come from the triangle) adjust to the offense very well because it's almost second nature.

Nash is handcuffing himself to learn it as best he can, and Howard is getting back to 100% and MWP is trying to find his place in it.


Struggling and "the shot clock going down" is part of it. When you're running a set like the Princeton(which they've run more sets of than you give them credit) need you and them to be moving, when someone stands still or offsets where it's supposed to go, the entire play breaks down and it goes to Kobe.

They've also been running the 4 out 1 in offense as well to effect which Mike Brown said they would(which they ran last year) but that also goes by unnoticed. They've also ran some triangle and Princeton sets as well.


They actually have run the Princeton a lot more often or tried to initiate it more often than you suggest, but again GCMD broke it down better than I can, so again, check his reply to you instead. . But a team that's trying to get chemistry down I'm not shocked at all by the shot clock going down when sets break.


Fact of the matter is, if they rely on Pick and Roll solely to win them games while they struggle with the Princeton then it will become a safety net and they'll spend even less time trying to learn the Princeton and they'll roll with it for the season and then in the playoffs when they're forced to run something else they will be screwed. Again.. ask Nash.

They're willing to struggle early till they can win with their system and when they get their system down seamlessly THEN they will run pick and roll which they have a greater knowledge about.

Your idea of "it's so simple! They could just run PnR to win them games now!"

Yeah but their execution of the Princeton would still be mediocre and they'd win a lot during the season but in the playoffs they'd struggle.

Sometimes it's not worth choosing a band-aid to get us through early games, once we start winning with our system currently we'll delve into other things. These mistakes also give us more sets to run with.

The Bright side is our 4 out 1 in offense is looking a LOT better than it did last year and when we do execute a Princeton set to effect it gets us an easy basket. It comes down to the player sometimes "seeing" a play that another player doesn't see. AS Kobe said, it's also about that each of them can see a different play they want to make and they try to initiate it but they don't have each other's tendencies down enough to the point where the guy receiving the pass knows what's coming. That's the base of some of our turnovers. And again it comes with time and chemistry.


This may be a broken record, but at the end of the day it's going to take time and patience. We aren't gonna run pick and roll JUST to get us some wins. They are thinking long term not short. That may frustrate you cause you say "ITS THERE ITS THERE ITS THERE" all day long. They know that, but they also know if they just rely on that, they'll slack on the Princeton and that will only hinder them in the future. So that's all there is to it.

And our problems are more so on the defensive end and allowing 2nd chance opportunities than anywhere else currently. Offensive fluidity be darned we'd still win these games if we prevented all the 2nd chance shots.

Edited by Majesty, November 04, 2012 - 04:40 AM.

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#13 Drazard

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 05:19 AM

LMAOO

how can you give him so many touch if he's in foul trouble

being foul trouble kills your momentum

If you know what I mean :whistle:

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#14 LakersGAFan

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 05:37 AM

Everyone has to realize that a single change isnt going to fix whats wrong with this team. They have serious function problems. I know the cop out is to point at what happened to Miami during their first 8-10 games. But I watched a few of those games, and they had more mechanical issues. Multiple breakdowns in their schemes. But there were times they looked brilliant. So even as they lost one could tell in time they would progress and fix the gaps, so to speak. But imo, the Lakers have bigger functional issues. And its gonna take a whole lot of coaching to make things click right.

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#15 LakeShow805

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 08:20 AM

You ever think that the rest of the team ALSO buys into the philosophy of wanting to get the system down instead of running PnR all day and night? Ever think the opinion of Nash is also the opinion of his teammates? That the team as a whole wants to get the system down before transitioning into just running PnR?

I think Kobe put it best on his facebook towards those like you, recently that question it :) GCMD already made great points against you in another thread that was basically my opinion so I won't rehash it here, you can respond to him there.

Anyway, Kobe's quote




It seems to me like this team wants to get the system down rather than rely on Pick and Roll to net them early wins and would rather win with whatever this system is and getting it down.

Because in the long haul, if we went to a pick and Roll Mindset then by the time we wanted to run anything else our timing would be off, like it is right now. If they start winning games on pick and roll because they are struggling with the system then they're never going to learn that system and will overly rely on the pick and roll and then when comes time for the playoffs and the game slows down and they won't be able to run pick and roll much they are screwed. Ask Nash. Because it's happened to him every year, and he doesn't want to relive that. Which is probably another reason he's intent on himself and the team getting the system down to a tee first before running pick and roll(which they all are familiar with)

Even Phil Jackson has coached this way, but I am sure you're aware of it. Phil was always fine with losing early in the season while players got acclimated with a new system and worked on the mistakes they were making.

if we were running the same kind of "crappy" offense last year that Kobe had to hoise up 41% of his shots over then he wouldn't be shooting 67% right now thus far. What you're not taking into account is Kobe's movement off the ball, he and Pau(whom both come from the triangle) adjust to the offense very well because it's almost second nature.

Nash is handcuffing himself to learn it as best he can, and Howard is getting back to 100% and MWP is trying to find his place in it.


Struggling and "the shot clock going down" is part of it. When you're running a set like the Princeton(which they've run more sets of than you give them credit) need you and them to be moving, when someone stands still or offsets where it's supposed to go, the entire play breaks down and it goes to Kobe.

They've also been running the 4 out 1 in offense as well to effect which Mike Brown said they would(which they ran last year) but that also goes by unnoticed. They've also ran some triangle and Princeton sets as well.


They actually have run the Princeton a lot more often or tried to initiate it more often than you suggest, but again GCMD broke it down better than I can, so again, check his reply to you instead. . But a team that's trying to get chemistry down I'm not shocked at all by the shot clock going down when sets break.


Fact of the matter is, if they rely on Pick and Roll solely to win them games while they struggle with the Princeton then it will become a safety net and they'll spend even less time trying to learn the Princeton and they'll roll with it for the season and then in the playoffs when they're forced to run something else they will be screwed. Again.. ask Nash.

They're willing to struggle early till they can win with their system and when they get their system down seamlessly THEN they will run pick and roll which they have a greater knowledge about.

Your idea of "it's so simple! They could just run PnR to win them games now!"

Yeah but their execution of the Princeton would still be mediocre and they'd win a lot during the season but in the playoffs they'd struggle.

Sometimes it's not worth choosing a band-aid to get us through early games, once we start winning with our system currently we'll delve into other things. These mistakes also give us more sets to run with.

The Bright side is our 4 out 1 in offense is looking a LOT better than it did last year and when we do execute a Princeton set to effect it gets us an easy basket. It comes down to the player sometimes "seeing" a play that another player doesn't see. AS Kobe said, it's also about that each of them can see a different play they want to make and they try to initiate it but they don't have each other's tendencies down enough to the point where the guy receiving the pass knows what's coming. That's the base of some of our turnovers. And again it comes with time and chemistry.


This may be a broken record, but at the end of the day it's going to take time and patience. We aren't gonna run pick and roll JUST to get us some wins. They are thinking long term not short. That may frustrate you cause you say "ITS THERE ITS THERE ITS THERE" all day long. They know that, but they also know if they just rely on that, they'll slack on the Princeton and that will only hinder them in the future. So that's all there is to it.

And our problems are more so on the defensive end and allowing 2nd chance opportunities than anywhere else currently. Offensive fluidity be darned we'd still win these games if we prevented all the 2nd chance shots.

We are one of the worst statistical teams in the nba. We have Kobe, Dwight, Gasol, and Nash. That shouldn't happen even if we are learning a new O. It seems the coaching staff does not know how to teach this offense efficiently. After a month with the smartest basketball players, you would understand it decently and not lose by 10 points each game. But hey can't expect much with a coach that plays Blake at the 2 and can't get set rotations.

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#16 GCMD

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 09:29 AM

Dwight also committed a lot of touch fouls due to his lack of stamina (amazing, never thought I'd say that about him) and him not being 100%.


The refs allowed Howard leeway also so it all averaged out in the end. Howard's motor does not rev as high as it normally would. That's the reason he's been in foul trouble.



And lets not pretend that he hasn't been foul prone in the past...even when healthy.

#17 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 12:02 PM

You ever think that the rest of the team ALSO buys into the philosophy of wanting to get the system down instead of running PnR all day and night? Ever think the opinion of Nash is also the opinion of his teammates? That the team as a whole wants to get the system down before transitioning into just running PnR?


There's nothing wrong with trying to get the system down. None at all. I never mentioned running P&R all the time, just that it should be an option when our offense clearly isn't working for stretches of a game. The problem arises when they continue to run a messy system with no results in the middle of games that actually count. We need every W we can get to lock down HCA once the postseason runs around. Every regular season is equal. You don't sacrifice easily winnable games just to practice running different sets and whatnot. That's what garbage time and the weekly practices are for.

It seems to me like this team wants to get the system down rather than rely on Pick and Roll to net them early wins and would rather win with whatever this system is and getting it down.

Because in the long haul, if we went to a pick and Roll Mindset then by the time we wanted to run anything else our timing would be off, like it is right now. If they start winning games on pick and roll because they are struggling with the system then they're never going to learn that system and will overly rely on the pick and roll and then when comes time for the playoffs and the game slows down and they won't be able to run pick and roll much they are screwed. Ask Nash. Because it's happened to him every year, and he doesn't want to relive that. Which is probably another reason he's intent on himself and the team getting the system down to a tee first before running pick and roll(which they all are familiar with)

Even Phil Jackson has coached this way, but I am sure you're aware of it. Phil was always fine with losing early in the season while players got acclimated with a new system and worked on the mistakes they were making.


But we don't have Phil Jackson right now. If we had Phil, I wouldn't be nearly as worried about this team a month or two down the road. He knew how to make the necessary adjustments to benefit whatever unit he was running on the floor.

if we were running the same kind of "crappy" offense last year that Kobe had to hoise up 41% of his shots over then he wouldn't be shooting 67% right now thus far. What you're not taking into account is Kobe's movement off the ball, he and Pau(whom both come from the triangle) adjust to the offense very well because it's almost second nature.


You'd assume that, but that's why you don't only look at a boxscore. You need to see what is happening in the actual games to understand how he's shooting so well. I rewatched every single made FGA by Kobe in the last two games and I can tell you with full confidence that the offense isn't the reason he's shooting at that high efficiency. Not even close. The offense wasn't even generating good looks for him aside from two or three cuts to the basket. The majority of his points came in isolation and pull-ups in transition.

Nash is handcuffing himself to learn it as best he can, and Howard is getting back to 100% and MWP is trying to find his place in it.


Struggling and "the shot clock going down" is part of it. When you're running a set like the Princeton(which they've run more sets of than you give them credit) need you and them to be moving, when someone stands still or offsets where it's supposed to go, the entire play breaks down and it goes to Kobe.


I watched every single made FGA from the last two games yesterday and they're not running many successful sets at all. Most of the time we can't even get the ball into the hands of a person in scoring position until there are 8 or fewer seconds left on the shot clock. So when the offense is faltering, we default to Kobe Bryant isolation like last season? I'm not seeing how that benefits us at all. Doesn't make much sense to rely upon Kobe bailing us out when we have the best center in the entire league playing against a frontline with no legitimate defensive anchor. Might be a good idea to take advantage of that, generate some easy offense, build a cushion, and THEN start practicing the new system.

Having issues with an offense is one thing, no one expects us to look perfect this early. However, they shouldn't be struggling to get off a quality look every other possession. Not when we clearly have the more talented team on the floor against inferior competition and teams that aren't even good defensively. Neither Dallas, Portland or the Clippers can boast about their collective team defense. They are all horrible on that end of the floor, especially a Dallas team that had Eddy Curry as their last line of defense.

Fact of the matter is, if they rely on Pick and Roll solely to win them games while they struggle with the Princeton then it will become a safety net and they'll spend even less time trying to learn the Princeton and they'll roll with it for the season and then in the playoffs when they're forced to run something else they will be screwed. Again.. ask Nash.

They're willing to struggle early till they can win with their system and when they get their system down seamlessly THEN they will run pick and roll which they have a greater knowledge about.

Your idea of "it's so simple! They could just run PnR to win them games now!"

Yeah but their execution of the Princeton would still be mediocre and they'd win a lot during the season but in the playoffs they'd struggle.


I never said for them to rely solely upon P&R, not once. I said that we should run it from time to time to generate easy offensive opportunities when we string together multiple offensive possessions with no result. Asking Nash does us no good because he's going to fall in line with whatever the coaching staff tells him to do. He is a new player on a new team in a new city playing alongside more star power than he has ever had in his entire career. He will not question the coaching staff's decisions, he's never been one to do that in his entire career.

You don't need to run the system every single possession of the game when it isn't effective. That's the whole point. When it isn't working, you find something else to fall back upon. That's something every coach with half a brain has done in the history of the game. Running a system for multiple possessions with no success is usually the sign that it's time to try something different for a stretch. We can't afford to fall into 15 point holes early and then run Kobe for 40 minutes in desperate attempts to steal away victories. That's terrible coaching.

We ran the 4-out-1-in all of last season and our execution was still mediocre by the team the postseason came around. We also refused to take advantage of a quick PG who would have had a field against the Nuggets and Thunder (two terrible teams at PnR defense) had we run a handful of plays featuring a high PnR. But we didn't, because we preferred to live and die by our broken system. The Princeton is not broken, but the version we're running is definitely not functioning as it should.

You don't force a team to live and die by a system when there are more effective options at your disposal, not at the expense of games that actually count. That's what the preseason was for.

#18 last stand 2.0

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 09:56 PM

watched a dwight howard highlight video. boy does he have a ways to go until he's back.

not to mention in an interview after the game he said he's more likely not gonna be 100% until midseason. and he's averaging like 26ppg at like 70% :laughing:

this guys gonna go for 30ppg a night when he's 100%.
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#19 Jackson

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Posted November 04, 2012 - 09:58 PM

I agree with you Last Stand 2.0. Dwight Howard used to jam every thing he could. Not softly put layups into the basket.

#20 gque24

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Posted November 05, 2012 - 07:45 AM

Yes D12 needs more touches. We are running more iso's for Pau than D12 = this is a mistake. Pau doesnt force his way into good low dominant post position when he is in Iso's. So its better to let D12 have more cuz he can make a forceful move & get a better look. If Pau is gonna settle for jumpers its better they are wide open mid range shots off PnR than him shooting fadeaways over midgets pushing him out of the paint area.
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