4893 replies to this topic

[Goku]

Gasol for Bargnani and Calderon, not worth it.

[TheOriginalCZM]

Legion Sports @MySportsLegion

-Raptors offer to the Lakers included point guard Jose Calderon, Andrea Bargnani and Linas Kleiza.

I had to type it out cause i'm at work but you can check their tweet on their page. Quoted 1 min ago.

[JGuez]

Have you guys seen Bargnani play? If Pau has been pissing you off with his play you will absolutely HATE this guy.

I like Calderon. He's expensive but his contract also expires this season.

[Lakerace24]

This is a trade I would really consider from the Raptors..
http://espn.go.com/n...tradeId=cwd9vcg

[Michaelyumm]

I'am so bipolar about Gasol lol! one day I wanna keep him cause of what he's done for this franchise, next day I want him out!

[West Coast]

Read that these were the proposals:

Raptors offered Bargnani, Calderon, and Kleiza

Wolves offer included Derrick Williams and Pekovic + another player.

[Michaelyumm]

Read that these were the proposals:

Raptors offered Bargnani, Calderon, and Kleiza

Wolves offer included Derrick Williams and Pekovic + another player.

Where would Pek fit in here? If Jordan Hill who's a great bench player can barley get playing time under Mike D, where would Pek be? Just asking to see your thoughts.

Pek is a good post up player and can rebound too. I would love him here but Mike D won't use him.

[Lakerace24]

Read that these were the proposals:

Raptors offered Bargnani, Calderon, and Kleiza

Wolves offer included Derrick Williams and Pekovic + another player.

See, now if we could somehow find a 3rd team that NEEDS a Center, Pekovic could be pretty valuable in helping us to acquire a good SF. Williams is a nice player to stash and develop, but Pekovic could get us a player that can contribute NOW.

[West Coast]

Where would Pek fit in here? If Jordan Hill who's a great bench player can barley get playing time under Mike D, where would Pek be? Just asking to see your thoughts.

Pek is a good post up player and can rebound too. I would love him here but Mike D won't use him.

He wouldn't. It's not a good trade for the Lakers at all.

[Goku]

We won't entertain any of those ideas. They do no good for us. If we are trading Pau we should either get a 3 point shooting big or a dynamic wing. Sadly for Pau's current value our options are limited. If only we could get Deng somehow

[West Coast]

Three team deal is what I see happening.

Williams + Pekovic can bring back something decent. Actually wouldn't be a bad get for Atlanta IMO.

But we'll see, we are still a few weeks away from anything happening

[Goku]

I'm thinking say we got Josh Smith *somehow* , would it be better to play Antawn and him together in starting lineup and Ron off the bench?

[Japago]

The Lakers are going to regret waiting to try to deal Pau.

Pau will continue to struggle and the Lakers will continue to lose even when Nash gets back. Nash won't solve the Lakers' biggest problems.

[Real Deal]

Let's say the Raptors were willing to throw in Ed Davis as well, who would pull the trigger on that deal?

I would trade Gasol for Ed Davis, straight up, if the CBA allowed it.

1) Davis doesn't make enough money (only around $2 million), so we'd have to take more players.

2) Toronto would be ignorant to trade Davis. He should be starting for them right now, but Colangelo believes in Bargnani...for some reason (or, he thinks he's far too valuable in a trade, and he doesn't want to bench him to ruin that).

[GCMD]

Just going to put this out on the table and walk away:

Defensively...

Nash >>> Calderon
Gasol >>>>> Bargnani.

Think about that for a minute.

I could say the same about MANY player around the league when comparing them to Kobe Bryant with Kobe playing the worst defense of his career right now...and what would you say?

"Look at the stats"

But if I compared the stats for Pau and Barg, the stats wouldn't say that. When I do the eye test for both, they come out the same defensively especially with Pau playing like a sloth on both ends.

So what is the standard? Are we going to go with supports our arguments because it's what we believe? Are we sticking with stats? Or is the eye-test the real deal?


I respect your opinion but it seems to lean on whatever supports it at the time while condemning the same thing you leaned on for previous justifications. Makes it very hard to know where you really stand.

As for myself, I hate stats. I think stats are the ultimate "snapshot" evidence that relies on multiple instances in any context to be lumped together as if they are equal. Only large data sets can be reliable at ID'ing TRENDS, not stating absolutes.

I have watched some of TOR's games from last year and this year (since this season started) and I can tell you unequivocally that Bargnani's defense is NOT as bad as people claim it is. He's not an anchor and he's not a sieve. He's got the body and athleticism to be a good post and man defender (good lateral speed and good bulk) but he's never been tasked to be a defensive stopper. He's NOT worse than DIRK Nowitski and that's no lie...you seem to overstate how bad he is because that's the reputation you believe in.

Calderon? Same deal. He's not a good defender but he's no worse than Nash and there is NOTHING in the eye test that supports that. He'd be our 2nd best PG, good 3pt shooter and another player who makes good decisions on the break. Quite frankly, we need that and Kobe needs to be relieved of his ballhandling duties, like NOW.

Add in the FACT that Calderon is an expiring contract with EVERYTHING to play for and Bargnani makes ONE HALF (1/2) of what Pau makes and you really think getting a 27y/o stretch 4 who is younger and healthier for a 32 y/o with bad knees is a BAD trade?

Sometimes bias gets in the way of common sense.

[TheOriginalCZM]

haven't seen Ed Davis play, but judging by his PER rating.........O_O !

Edit: Nvm i do remember him now... from UNC...but i last saw him play at the college level..but not from NBA standards.

Edited by smoov123y, December 06, 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Real Deal]

I could say the same about MANY player around the league when comparing them to Kobe Bryant with Kobe playing the worst defense of his career right now...and what would you say?

"Look at the stats"

But if I compared the stats for Pau and Barg, the stats wouldn't say that. When I do the eye test for both, they come out the same defensively especially with Pau playing like a sloth on both ends.

So what is the standard? Are we going to go with supports our arguments because it's what we believe? Are we sticking with stats? Or is the eye-test the real deal?

I respect your opinion but it seems to lean on whatever supports it at the time while condemning the same thing you leaned on for previous justifications. Makes it very hard to know where you really stand.

I thought I made that clear in one of my other posts, but I guess not.

Using your "eye test" method...it's obvious that Dwight helps with Gasol's man, and our PG assignments that drive the lane. This is a fact. Kobe and Artest are the two best perimeter defenders on the team, so they are asked to fend for themselves. This is usually the case with all defensive anchors; in Detroit, Billups and Prince didn't need the help that Hamilton and an older Sheed did. When you went to look at Rip Hamilton's defensive numbers, they didn't seem so bad. Billups, however, was putting up good numbers most of his career, so it didn't matter.

Same with Ray Allen in Boston. He needed the defensive help from Garnett. Are you willing to say that Rondo's defensive numbers could be because of Garnett's presence, just because he's in the game and your "eye test" shows him there?

Being able to direct your assignment to one particular area of the court is not as easy as people think. It's extremely hard, especially when you're getting hit with screens constantly.

I've re-watched maybe six games of ours this season (all losses, I purposely do this). Go see how many times Kobe is hit with a screen.

In fact, specifically...the Orlando Magic game...go watch us blow that lead, or start at the last five minutes of the game. You'll see exactly why our defense has trouble every now and then. No communication.

Again, we are a top defensive team in the NBA. We just don't sustain it, and I pointed out why in yet another post.

I have watched some of TOR's games from last year and this year (since this season started) and I can tell you unequivocally that Bargnani's defense is NOT as bad as people claim it is. He's not an anchor and he's not a sieve. He's got the body and athleticism to be a good post and man defender (good lateral speed and good bulk) but he's never been tasked to be a defensive stopper. He's NOT worse than DIRK Nowitski and that's no lie...you seem to overstate how bad he is because that's the reputation you believe in.

Calderon? Same deal. He's not a good defender but he's no worse than Nash and there is NOTHING in the eye test that supports that. He'd be our 2nd best PG, good 3pt shooter and another player who makes good decisions on the break. Quite frankly, we need that and Kobe needs to be relieved of his ballhandling duties, like NOW.

Add in the FACT that Calderon is an expiring contract with EVERYTHING to play for and Bargnani makes ONE HALF (1/2) of what Pau makes and you really think getting a 27y/o stretch 4 who is younger and healthier for a 32 y/o with bad knees is a BAD trade?

Sometimes bias gets in the way of common sense.

You're arguing against Toronto Raptors fans, then...and I'm definitely not going to take your word for it, nor would I take mine if I were watching "some of Toronto's games" versus die-hard Raptors fans (and one of the most intelligent Raptors fans I know, posting on my site) saying that Bargnani and Calderon are matadors.

Not sure what else to tell you. Believe what you want.

[GCMD]

Bargnani makes half of what Pau makes...fits the offense 10x better than Pau.
Calderon fits the offense better than any PG on the team not named Nash...and is an ecpiring contract.

I'm not seeing the problem here.


And for everyone who doesn't know what to make of Barg's defense, see Dirk Nowitski. Same body type. Same flaws defensively. Dirk is a better overall player but Bargnani has the same strengths and weaknesses. Bargs is a better passer.

Outside of Ryan Anderson, we aren't going to find another PF who shoots 3's at a high percentage, is relatively young and makes 10M/year...

So those saying it's a bad trade, do better. Show me something that makes more sense and is close to being realistic.

[KobeBeef24]

Living in Toronto, I watch many Raptors game.
Fans here are quite fed up with Bargnani, Colangelo's obsession with him is quite simular to Bynum/Jim Buss.
Bargnani can shoot the ball but he is as soft as Pau, defence is slightly better when he wants to be good.
Calderon's offensive play is great, but he would constantly let his man drive past him 90% of the time.
Ed Davis has potential but can't shoot for his life, from the field or from the line.
Kleiza is a decent bench player, but a very streaky shooter.
If we trade with Toronto, we would be saving money no doubt though.

Edited by KobeBeef24, December 06, 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Real Deal]

Bargnani makes half of what Pau makes...fits the offense 10x better than Pau.
Calderon fits the offense better than any PG on the team not named Nash...and is an ecpiring contract.

I'm not seeing the problem here.


And for everyone who doesn't know what to make of Barg's defense, see Dirk Nowitski. Same body type. Same flaws defensively. Dirk is a better overall player but Bargnani has the same strengths and weaknesses. Bargs is a better passer.

Outside of Ryan Anderson, we aren't going to find another PF who shoots 3's at a high percentage, is relatively young and makes 10M/year...

So those saying it's a bad trade, do better. Show me something that makes more sense and is close to being realistic.

What Dirk (in his prime) couldn't do on the defensive end...was overshadowed (by far) by how incredible he was as an offensive player. Same with Steve Nash.

Don't compare Bargnani to Dirk, in any manner. He's more Gasol (today's Gasol)...and honestly, not even that. Bargnani doesn't pass as well as Pau, certainly doesn't rebound as well, and he has NEVER shot over 47% from the floor...and a career FG% of just 43.8% as a PF/C.

Cool...Calderon is better than our backups. Sounds fantastic. Not worth it.