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Pau Gasol

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#521 Majesty

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Posted November 14, 2012 - 10:31 PM

Another thing to add a lot of people were happy with yesterdays game because we kept the spurs "close"

Does anyone realise how poorly the Spurs shot? Manu is still injured and shot 1-8 and he missed some pretty easy shots. Parker had the flu. They shot 38%. I dont think that was entirely our defence. They missed some gimmicks and open shots. While we did miss some open shots, the people that missed them - Gasol, Mettta, Morris, meeks and Jamison have been terrible all year. I dont know I think I might just need another 10 games to analyse this team. Sample sizes are not big enough JUST yet.


Edit: funny point - Metta is shooting 6 3 pointers a game at 31% lol. Just LOL.


You're aware part of the reason why the Spurs shot so crap was our defense. I didn't see us saying "go ahead shoot that wide open shot" every time down.

The Spurs shot like crap because we forced them into tough shots nearly every time down. So we should get credit for that as well.


I don't think our defense is given enough credit.


Our players get no benefit of the doubt when they are fighting through injuries or situations if they get scored on or have a bad game. So why should we say "we only played good D cause their players were sick"

Come on now =P

Edited by Majesty, November 14, 2012 - 10:32 PM.

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#522 Lakers4Life

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Posted November 14, 2012 - 11:19 PM

Fair enough Majesty lol. I like to criticize my own team more than others NO EXCUSES! ha lol.

@Real Deal, Pau Gasol is a better defender than Amare purely because of his height, he will alter ALOT more shots than Amare and block more aswell. Not to mention Pau rebounds better than Amare. While Pau is not a great defender, his not a liability either. Amare on the other hand is a pure liability. He cant defend pick and rolls, he cant defend the interior at ALL. His 6 foot 9.

You also bring up points about Nash and Amare having chemistry. Ill nullify that because Kobe and Gasol have even better chemistry. They have been at least on the same team since 2008 and they still click with each other not to mention Kobes bromance with Gasol lol. Gasol we at least know SOMEWHAT fits on this team because he doenst mind deferring. What about Amare? Does he want to be a 3rd or even 4th option? Should be paying someone 23 million in 2014, with the amount of injuries his had, he already looks slower, his coming of a knee injury AGAIN this year. Why take the risk for a "lateral move" if not a "backward move"...

Edit: Also another point is that Gasol is about 100x better passer than Amare. At least Pau can oop it to Howard. On the other hand Amare is a blackhole once he gets that ball, his most likely not giving it up to Howard. Theres a reason why Amare had 1.1 assists last year.

Nah I stand by my opinion Gasol for Amare, definitely a no. Amare is not the answer for this team

Edited by Lakers4Life, November 14, 2012 - 11:21 PM.

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#523 Real Deal

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Posted November 14, 2012 - 11:37 PM

Kobe and Gasol haven't had any chemistry since 2010, when Gasol decided he was going to disappear as a scoring threat.

As far as blocks go, in 2011, Amare swatted 1.9 a game. Gasol hasn't reached that number since 2007. That should make up for Gasol's one extra rebound per game.

Yep, Gasol can pass. Too bad he's done as a facilitating PF. D'Antoni doesn't like to post up his forwards, and Nash, Kobe and Dwight will be facilitating more now. Gasol's best chance of being that kind of player was in the Princeton, but we were basically using the guy as a point-forward, also.

Amare can't defend P&R...that's true. Gasol is just as bad, and at least Amare can recover faster. Gasol was as bad as Bynum, recovering...Bynum because he's almost 300 pounds, Gasol has no excuse.

So...with the one extra rebound and better passing, I don't see how that makes it a definite no, in regards to adding a player that will run P&R with Nash, and look to score. Fourth option? That's not going to happen. Nash isn't going to do that to any all-star on this team.

If anything, we don't do it because of the money. Otherwise, it benefits us simply because Gasol doesn't fit anymore, and Amare is the better fit.

For the record, if this was the triangle offense, I wouldn't consider it.

#524 Lakers4Life

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 12:13 AM

Fair points. Yet I still disagree on a few points.

You bring up Amares 2011 stats where he averaged 1.9 blocks to me those numbers are irrelevant in the present. In 2012 he got 1 block a game. Much like his 2010 1 block a game. So in other words in 2011 he overachieved and played out of his mind (which he did). Not to mention that since then Amare has been MORE injury prone and now 2 years older in a body that is already as it is broken down. No matter which way you put it, even if he averages 20-10 this year his still a major risk because of injury and those darn knees. Much like why I wanted Bynum out so badly for Howard was because I KNEW last year Bynum overachieved so damn much and it was a miracle he lasted (Lakers sold High and got Dwight Howard).

My real problem with Amare is, its still a lateral move. Ill play with it a bit here for the sake of argument lets say I agree with you and we get Amare, yes he might be a slightly better fit. But you just shook up a team in the midst of a championship chase. All for a marginal if not lateral move? Is his fit offensively so much better for his liability on defence. Not to mention Amare is going to be out for a full another month. How will he look this year? How long till his at full strength? Can this team afford another massive QUESTION mark. Why are the New York Knicks playing BETTER right now without Amare?

At the end of the day your comparing Amare from 2012 against Pau Gasol from the 2013 season. You have yet to see Amare from 2013 because his yet to play a game because of his injuries, there is no way you can justify that move, because at the end of the day you cannot justify your assumptions of what kind of player his going to be. TO me knee injuries are by far the worst for an NBA player. Right now 2012 Pau Gasol is about 5x better than 2013 Pau Gasol. But we know that. We dont know anything of Amare 2013.

So in conclusion are you willing to make a move that has so many question marks, that will undoubtedly make you pay more in 2014, and at most a slightly "better fit" on the offensive end? Im not sure if I would be willing to take that risk. The way I look at it is if your going to trade Pau. You improve by a lot. Just like Dwight for Bynum. It was a no brainer BETTER move. Why should I risk this season based on IFs (Amare playing like 2011, Amare gelling with the team, Amare being a better fit, Amare suddenly not being injury prone).

So yes definitely a no go zone for me.



Ill add a counter trade to it that I might agree to. You say here is Kyle Korver/or Morrow + Josh Smith for Pau Gasol and lets say Ebanks or whatever. Ill say yes for these reasons
1) We get younger, stabilising our future a little bit
2) We address a much needed 3 point shooter on the team
3) Josh Smith is a much better defender and athletic PF thus allowing us become faster on offence and allow our interior defence and rotating defence to move alot faster.

The downsides to it is:
1) We lost chemistry and team will need to adjust and gel again
2) We hinder our 2014/2015 cap situation as Josh Smiths contract expires this year
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#525 Real Deal

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 12:50 AM

You bring up Amares 2011 stats where he averaged 1.9 blocks to me those numbers are irrelevant in the present. In 2012 he got 1 block a game. Much like his 2010 1 block a game. So in other words in 2011 he overachieved and played out of his mind (which he did). Not to mention that since then Amare has been MORE injury prone and now 2 years older in a body that is already as it is broken down. No matter which way you put it, even if he averages 20-10 this year his still a major risk because of injury and those darn knees. Much like why I wanted Bynum out so badly for Howard was because I KNEW last year Bynum overachieved so damn much and it was a miracle he lasted (Lakers sold High and got Dwight Howard).

Honestly, there are a lot of factors when it comes to getting blocks. I don't really consider a player a good defender, even if he does get blocks...so when I see Gasol get one, or Amare, it doesn't mean all that much to me. But, for to explain these factors a bit more...last year, Tyson Chandler was the defensive anchor down low, so Amare wasn't going to get enough contests at the rim. The year before, Chandler was in Dallas, and Amare was playing center for most of that year (when Mozgov was pulled after 14 starts). You wouldn't think one extra block a game is significant, but Ibaka was getting a half a block more than Amare (on average) that year.

My real problem with Amare is, its still a lateral move. Ill play with it a bit here for the sake of argument lets say I agree with you and we get Amare, yes he might be a slightly better fit. But you just shook up a team in the midst of a championship chase. All for a marginal if not lateral move? Is his fit offensively so much better for his liability on defence. Not to mention Amare is going to be out for a full another month. How will he look this year? How long till his at full strength? Can this team afford another massive QUESTION mark.

I can't say we are in the midst of a championship chase. We don't have an offense yet, and our chemistry sucks. We are winning, or staying in, games...solely based on our one-on-one play.

The gap between Amare and Gasol's offense...is much larger than the gap between their defense (and I think they are the same, defensively, but even if they weren't...it's close).

Why are the New York Knicks playing BETTER right now without Amare?

Why are they playing better without Jeremy Lin?

The Miami Heat were 14-3 without Dwyane Wade last year.

Carmelo is at his very best at the four. He becomes far more efficient, has the ball in the post, and doesn't have to share the wealth with Amare, who is also best at the four. You can't take two players like that, in that particular offense, and expect them to play with similar interests. That's not saying they are both the same player, but Amare had no way of feeding off of Melo (because Melo never passes the ball), and likewise, Melo couldn't feed off of Amare because Amare looks to score just as much.

Here, Amare would be stuck in the P&R, or he would be getting easy baskets because of Kobe and Dwight. We wouldn't dump the ball down low to him, like the Knicks were doing.

At the end of the day your comparing Amare from 2012 against Pau Gasol from the 2013 season. You have yet to see Amare from 2013 because his yet to play a game because of his injuries, there is no way you can justify that move, because at the end of the day you cannot justify your assumptions of what kind of player his going to be. TO me knee injuries are by far the worst for an NBA player. Right now 2012 Pau Gasol is about 5x better than 2013 Pau Gasol. But we know that. We dont know anything of Amare 2013.

Well, we didn't know anything about 2013 Dwight Howard, either...especially the Howard that missed most of April, had offseason back surgery as a 265-pound center, and coming here for Andrew Bynum...who just came off of an all-star season.

Even funnier, remember...there was talk that Howard wouldn't be ready until mid-December, and at one point, we figured we wouldn't have him for the Christmas game, and it would be until January. Premature talk, but it was still out there, being reported by credible media sources.

So in conclusion are you willing to make a move that has so many question marks, that will undoubtedly make you pay more in 2014, and at most a slightly "better fit" on the offensive end? Im not sure if I would be willing to take that risk. The way I look at it is if your going to trade Pau. You improve by a lot. Just like Dwight for Bynum. It was a no brainer BETTER move. Why should I risk this season based on IFs (Amare playing like 2011, Amare gelling with the team, Amare being a better fit, Amare suddenly not being injury prone).

If we trade Pau, we aren't going to improve by a lot, unless the Hawks deal Josh Smith. There isn't much more out there. He's a $19 million player that is going to be 33 years old at the end of this season, and with extremely-harsh tax penalties coming up next year, I'm pretty sure most teams are going to cringe at having to pay $1.50 or $3.75 for every dollar of that $19 million ($4.75 if you're a repeater, which is asinine). Some teams will be looking at Gasol as a $48 million player, max of around $71 million for non-repeaters. Hard to deal that contract, even if it's an expiring.


The downsides to it is:
1) We lost chemistry and team will need to adjust and gel again
2) We hinder our 2014/2015 cap situation as Josh Smiths contract expires this year

Again, we have no chemistry, and inserting Josh Smith (replacing a soon-to-be bad fit in Gasol) will only help, no matter what.

As far as our cap space goes in 2014...if Kobe doesn't retire, we won't have much to work with anyway, with Dwight, Kobe and Nash on the roster (all three, no other players, could equal up to $45-50 million, and that's if Kobe takes a paycut of almost 50% of his salary).

#526 iDreamShake

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 01:12 AM

god id take Amare and Jr in a heartbeat. give em meeks. i dont know if theyd do it tho.. i know for a fact theyd be a better team with Gasol over Amare,by far i think,,,,,,so maybe theyd throw in JR for us,,,,mitch wouldnt do the deal without him,,,,,if he wanted to deal with NY. and also,imo, shump is overrated,,,not close to proven yet

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#527 JSaber20

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 01:19 AM

People are complaining for our lack of good shooters and a stretch 4, but they're clamoring to trade Gasol for J Smoove.
Okay.

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#528 JSaber20

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 01:21 AM

god id take Amare and Jr in a heartbeat. give em meeks. i dont know if theyd do it tho.. i know for a fact theyd be a better team with Gasol over Amare,by far i think,,,,,,so maybe theyd throw in JR for us,,,,mitch wouldnt do the deal without him,,,,,if he wanted to deal with NY. and also,imo, shump is overrated,,,not close to proven yet

JR has been balling all around, and a big reason they're winning, doubt they trade him.

New York would do Amare for Gasol in a heartbeat I bet though.

Edited by JSaber20, November 15, 2012 - 01:21 AM.

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#529 Majesty

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 01:25 AM

People are complaining for our lack of good shooters and a stretch 4, but they're clamoring to trade Gasol for J Smoove.
Okay.


They want JSmoove for more than just offense. Him and Gasol are gonna shoot about the same from mid range and Smith will shoot better from 3, and we won't be looking for 3s from him.

We have two stretch players on our bench in Meeks and Jamison and Blake depending.

So that's not an issue.

Gasol's lack of defense and effort are why people want Smith over Gasol at this point to be honest. because he's a better defender, he's more athletic and will give more of an effort every night than Gasol has shown.

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#530 Real Deal

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 01:25 AM

People are complaining for our lack of good shooters and a stretch 4, but they're clamoring to trade Gasol for J Smoove.
Okay.

Smith would come with Korver or Morrow, more than likely...but at some point, it doesn't matter because he's perfect for Nash running the break.

I mean, we need a PG that can shoot, but I wouldn't decline a Gasol/Rondo trade, if Boston was that ignorant.

Blake Griffin can't shoot, but would you trade Gasol for him?

#531 Cj2008nw

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 05:57 AM

Is there any way we can trade Gasol and Jamisonto the bucks for Doron Lamb, Epeh Udoh, and John Henson?

#532 gque24

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 06:20 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^WTF :stop:
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#533 Cj2008nw

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 06:52 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^WTF :stop:


Do you even know who these players are and what they can do for L.A.? Doron Lamb is a defensive SG who can shoot and finish at the rim and will run the floor great with Nash..... And John Henson is a Defensive big man who has a mid range jumper and can also finish at the rim.... Epeh Udon another defensive big man but not so much offense.... You give up a declining offensive player to improve your defense

#534 gque24

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 06:57 AM

I know who they are and I dont see them mixing well. You always come up with some weird players for trade suggestions. do you just like to pick the underdogs or do you relaly believe their gms would translate to helping LA to a TItle? Sometimes Im not sure if you are serious or not.
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#535 Cj2008nw

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 07:02 AM

I know who they are and I dont see them mixing well. You always come up with some weird players for trade suggestions. do you just like to pick the underdogs or do you relaly believe their gms would translate to helping LA to a TItle? Sometimes Im not sure if you are serious or not.


I look at it like this.... Most franchises are not going to give up their quality players or franchise players for Pau because he is on a decline (unless Mitch can rob another team for their players) I just don't see us receiving proven players for Gasol so why not take a risk on some young players... (By the way we need to start trying to get more youth) and develop them as we go.... All championship teams have a mixture of youth and veterans right now we need more youth

#536 gque24

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 07:08 AM

I agree we need youth, athleticism, 3 pt specialist, & combo players! But i just can see the people above nor Honeycutt coming in making a drmaatic impact that will get us a Title. We need players that are young but have a track record in the NBA of producing regularly.
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#537 Windu

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 07:13 AM

I don't really like Amare anymore

Pau Gasol is GONE


#538 Tensai

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 07:36 AM

Amar'e is even more washed up than Pau.

#539 gque24

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 07:46 AM

^^^^^^No way cant agree
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#540 Disturbed

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Posted November 15, 2012 - 07:53 AM

I am not an Amare fan or a Pau fan both players are soft, however Amare is a better pf than Gasol, can run the floor and would be a much better fit than Gasol in MD system. If that was the only deal for Gasol I would do it in a heartbeat...
It's just really hard being a proud Laker fan right now! Magic is right "love Dr. Buss I do not believe in Jim Buss"
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