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Star Wars: Episode VII


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#61 fido

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 03:54 PM

Special effects, wooden acting and bad directing don't illustrate anything.

I've talked to a ton of fans. Most Star Wars fans have trouble admitting that the prequels were far below par. Most just say they like them when in actuality they don't. I'm 42 man, been around the block a couple hundred more times than you on this subject. I've fortunately or unfortunately been a geek about this junk way too long to not have talked to a gazillion Star Wars fans. Saw the originals in the theatre, waited in all the midnight lines up until Episode II and have gabbed about this opus way more than I care to admit.

The prequels weren't good.

In its essence prequels are a bad idea, unless its in book form. Cinematically and kind of in general story-wise they don't work.

What you get involved in in a good movie is character. People may not think that, but you do. The characters are what drives the story and movie forward, not the effects. When a movie relies on effects to do its storytelling and ignores the nuances of character and story within, the movie, book or tv show fails - every time.

When you know the ultimate fate of every character all the intrigue, all the jeopardy they can get into is pointless. They can go crazy with CG stuff all they want but in the end you know what happens. That is an inherent problem in making prequels and why it so rarely works.

Pile onto that awful directing, making actors act against a green screen studio instead of in actual environments or hand built sets and you have a recipe for failure.

#62 TKainZero

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 03:55 PM

damm you eric cartman!

#63 TKainZero

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 03:58 PM

I've talked to a ton of fans. Most Star Wars fans have trouble admitting that the prequels were far below par.



The new ones sucked...
this is universially accepted... episode III was the only half decent one...

The new ones are like the Godfather III....

#64 fido

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 03:59 PM

Yep, my feelings too.

Though Episode II was still just incredibly stone-faced and sterile, its the only one that came somewhat close to being a decent film.

#65 last stand 2.0

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 04:26 PM

I thought episode 3 was the only passable one. Episode 1 was an one big shaking a rattler in the face of the audience

Episode 2 was a b-level action film, and that's being nice

Episode 3 felt the most like a star wars movie to me, it finally gave the prequels reason to exist IMO and Hayden wasn't a disgrace to acting like he was in the previous movie

Edited by last stand 2.0, January 29, 2013 - 04:26 PM.

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#66 fido

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 04:29 PM

Again, agreed.

Alright, well I didn't want to derail this thread in to a prequel vs. originals debate. Everyon'es got their likes and dislikes, opinions are never gonna change either way,

Back to Episode VII stuff!

#67 Busty Bluth

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 07:29 PM

I thought Ewan McGregor was great in the pre.

I'm glad JJ is the guy now. Lucas drug his ass too long on the series.

I hope they shoot the next 3 back to back. They won't, but it'd be nice.


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#68 Windu

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 07:43 PM

Special effects, wooden acting and bad directing don't illustrate anything.

I've talked to a ton of fans. Most Star Wars fans have trouble admitting that the prequels were far below par. Most just say they like them when in actuality they don't. I'm 42 man, been around the block a couple hundred more times than you on this subject. I've fortunately or unfortunately been a geek about this junk way too long to not have talked to a gazillion Star Wars fans. Saw the originals in the theatre, waited in all the midnight lines up until Episode II and have gabbed about this opus way more than I care to admit.

The prequels weren't good.

In its essence prequels are a bad idea, unless its in book form. Cinematically and kind of in general story-wise they don't work.

What you get involved in in a good movie is character. People may not think that, but you do. The characters are what drives the story and movie forward, not the effects. When a movie relies on effects to do its storytelling and ignores the nuances of character and story within, the movie, book or tv show fails - every time.

When you know the ultimate fate of every character all the intrigue, all the jeopardy they can get into is pointless. They can go crazy with CG stuff all they want but in the end you know what happens. That is an inherent problem in making prequels and why it so rarely works.

Pile onto that awful directing, making actors act against a green screen studio instead of in actual environments or hand built sets and you have a recipe for failure.


Special effects illustrate the power of the Force and it was done far better than the amateurish looks of Episodes IV, V, and VI. The Force is much more "believable" in Episodes I, II, and II. What the original movies had going for them was that they were the first movies that introduced the Star Wars Universe, Harrison Ford (Han Solo), and the story.

You may be older but I've seen and read my share of star wars material. Sequels (in this case prequels) are almost never better than originals.

Pau Gasol is GONE


#69 Windu

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 07:46 PM

I thought Ewan McGregor was great in the pre.


Ian McDiarmid was solid as Palpatine too.

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#70 Busty Bluth

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 10:18 PM

Ian McDiarmid was solid as Palpatine too.

was it me or did his make up look hokey?

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#71 fido

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 11:08 PM

Makeup in Episode III was awful and that scene by the big window when Mace Windu gets killed, never heard an audience and myself laugh so hard at a non comedic part in a movie as we did during the "no, no" lines.

Ewan MacGregor was the only thing holding those films even halfway together.

The force isn't effects. The force is an unseen element in the universe that anyone can tap into should hey goose to do so. Overuse of Special effects donesn't do anything but take away any power it had. Plus the the whole
Midichlorian thing saying the force is nothing but a bacteria you're born with was one of the dumbest ideas in the whole universe. It destroyed everything the Force was originally supposed to be.

You saying episodes 4, 5 & 6 are amateurish is pretty insulting and kind of indignant towards the movies that laid the ground work and best described this whole universe in the first place. It kinda shows a lack of respect for a group of people who made genius out of nothing with no support from major studios and on a shoestring budget.

It was 1977 and it's what they had to work with. They did something that was never seen before and pushed movies forward far ahead of where they were. When we saw it then it blew everyone's mind, this was stuff not done before and it was wrapped around solid story, character, actual sets and top notch acting. Something the prequels had none of.

The furthest thing from amateur you could possibly get. It changed the world's view of what a moie could do and be. But somehow they are amateur? Wow.

So I guess King Kong was also "amateurish" as well.

That attitude just annoys me. You do the best with what you have. You have to admire a work for more than just the superficial look of something which is what most movies go for nowadays, including the prequels.

Wow, episodes 4, 5 & 6 amateurish. Damn dude and you call yourself a Star Wars fan? Painful.

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 11:10 PM

and that scene by the big window when Mace Widu gets killed, never heard an audience and myself laugh so hard at a non comedic part in a movie as we did during the "no, no" lines.

:laughing:

yo.


#73 fido

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Posted January 29, 2013 - 11:18 PM

And yeah again, stoked they went with JJ Abrams, just to get things back on track.

I know Disney said they want to release a Star Wars film every year a la the Harry Potter franchise.

This should be fun.

#74 Windu

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Posted January 30, 2013 - 07:07 AM

Honestly, I don't remember the last time I went into a movie focusing on makeup.

I could easily nitpick at some scenes from the "older" movies just like you're doing with Episode III.

You're twisting my words. I never said that the force "is about effects"; what I said was:

Special effects illustrate the power of the Force


And I said it was done better in the later movies. Why? You said so yourself:

It was 1977 and it's what they had to work with.


Obviously you're not aware...but the concept of midi-chlorians was a George Lucas idea:

It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells.


Midi-chlorians were first conceived by George Lucas as early as 1977. In this time the first Expanded Universe products were being created, including the ongoing Marvel Star Wars series and Alan Dean Foster's novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Lucas sat down with a member of his staff, Carol Titelman, to dictate a number of guidelines for these works, explaining various concepts of his universe. Among them were an explanation of midi-chlorians, which Force-sensitive beings were said to have more of in their cells. However, Lucas did not feel he had the time to introduce the concept of midi-chlorians. The idea would not appear in any Star Wars product for twenty-two years; Lucas chose 1999's Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace as the opportunity to first mention the midi-chlorians, explaining why some were sensitive to the Force while others were not, an issue that he had left unresolved since the original film Star Wars. Lucas incorporated the explanation of midi-chlorians into the film as part of Anakin Skywalker's journey towards understanding the Force. That Lucas had planned the midi-chlorians as far back as 1977 was hinted at on the DVD commentary of The Phantom Menace, but the details would not be fully revealed for another eight years, coming to light in the 2007 book The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film, the hardcover edition of which had, among its appendices, Lucas' notes for the Expanded Universe authors.


Midi-chlorians in The Phantom Menace are part of a recurring theme throughout the movie, that of symbiotic relationships.[32] They were loosely based on mitochondria, organelles that provide energy for cells; like midi-chlorians, mitochondria are believed to have once been separate organisms that inhabited living cells and have since become part of them; even now, mitochondria act in some ways as independent lifeforms, with DNA all their own. Lucas established this relation with mitochondria, in particular the necessity of midi-chlorians for life to exist, as a metaphor for society; namely, he says all parts of society must get along in much the same way the midi-chlorians and their symbiont do. In 2006—as a tribute to this similarity—a newly discovered species of bacteria residing within mitochondria was named Midichloria mitochondrii after the midi-chlorians. Its discoverer, Nate Lo, wrote to Lucas requesting permission to use the name, and was granted it.


George Lucas considers the two aspects of the Force separately, treating the midi-chlorians as the practical, biological side, distinct from the spiritual and metaphysical side of the Force.


I also never said the originals are amateurish. What I DID say was:

the amateurish looks of Episodes IV, V, and VI.


Again...

It was 1977 and it's what they had to work with.


Edited by Windu, January 30, 2013 - 07:07 AM.

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#75 fido

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Posted January 30, 2013 - 07:59 AM

Still it's not amateurish looks man, it was 1977, that was the state of the art then. I wasn't twisting anyone's words. To cal it amateurish in any way is an insult. They were top of the line in 77.

For some reason a lot of today's movie goers judge effects or movies in general by today's capabilities. It's not only unfair, it's unreasonable. To render any judgment on a film because it was done before today's technology is just silly.

Like I said, then I guess King Kong has amateurish looks too?

And I'm fully aware of the midi chlorination junk, it was a terrible idea. I realize it may have been an idea he had way back when, but the key hereis back then he had the sense to let it go because it was an awful notion. I know it was Lucas who came up with it. It's an awful embarassment to the idea of the Force. There's no supporting it. It cheapened everything about the force, bad idea.

The bad makeup isn't nitpicking, it's not a tiny detail. It was 2002 - 2005 when this movie was being shot and during the shooin a well as in post the facilities were there to make not look like mover ident film makeup job. It looks awful. If anything is amateurish looking its that. With all the post capabilities they have nowadays there was no excuse for the terrible line delivery and silly look of that scene. The line delivery can easily be re-shot, that was bad acting backed by bad directing and it took entire theatres completely out of the movie.

One bad scene can do that, and the prequels had many groan worthy scenes that did.

You're missing my point about special effects. It wasn't solely special effects that illustrated he power of the force in the originals. That's what made it far more mystical and in line wih what the original intention of it was.

When it comes down to it, we are both fans and that's good enough for me. This is a debate that can go on in circles forever and neither of our opinions will ever change.

#76 Windu

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Posted January 30, 2013 - 01:52 PM

I just hate dissing one to build up the other. Both have flaws and one does certain things better than the other but I enjoy them all.

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#77 bigfetz

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Posted January 30, 2013 - 06:51 PM

I just hate dissing one to build up the other. Both have flaws and one does certain things better than the other but I enjoy them all.

Same. I liked them all. I saw the prequels from 7-13 years old. I liked them. I grew up with all 6 really so I see them as the same.

#78 fido

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Posted January 30, 2013 - 08:07 PM

I'm not putting one group downtown build up the other, but I totally get your point.

Fair enough Windu. Like is said we are both obviously ardent fans and that's all that matters.

So looking forward to episode 7. If you lived closer to so cal it would be a blast to go see it with ya.

#79 Windu

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Posted January 30, 2013 - 08:17 PM

Cali has earthquakes

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#80 fido

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Posted January 31, 2013 - 02:35 AM

HA! So few and far between.

I'll take earthquakes over tornadoes, hurricanes, snow or frigid weather any day,




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