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Sam Mitchell said it best


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#21 JSaber20

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Posted October 18, 2012 - 10:20 PM

Makes sense, in all his training camp interviews Nash has been stressing that time is the biggest issue and they need to make the most of whats left of camp to learn the offense.
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#22 Drazard

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Posted October 18, 2012 - 10:55 PM

Pricenton is a good offense where you don't need to overuse

The best player in the lakers history KOBE BRYANT ! :rock:

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#23 L.A.K.E.R

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Posted October 18, 2012 - 11:33 PM

Sam Mitchell? :laughing:

#24 DanishLakerFan

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Posted October 19, 2012 - 01:50 AM

Im not worried, but obviously there is a risk in overthinking a system. In this case i dont think it will be a problem.

I doubt that we will base our entire offense on the Princeton principles, but rather use certain elements of the Princeton offense and combine it with traditional pick and roll sets. If the Lakers can pull it off, it could be the most unstoppable offense in the recent years.

#25 Disturbed

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Posted October 19, 2012 - 06:52 AM

And honestly Rick Adelman would've been GOLD!!!!! as our head coach! He know's the princeton better than Eddie Jordan, Bickerstaff, and Brown all together



The difference between MB and RA is huge. The Lakers would not be learning a new offense if RA was the coach. The problem with MB, he has no SYSTEM. Now in MB 2nd season another new assistant offensive coach because MB has no clue how to coach offense, HE HAS NO SYSTEM that he believes in, that he can teach.
I wonder if JIM BUSS asked MB what system he uses, what can he do as an offensive coach. As we know now MB defense was no better than PJ's defense, so what did JIM BUSS see in MB to make him believe he was the best coach available ?
With PJ and RA you have coaches that know from day one what they are going to do, their assistant coaches assist in teaching what the head coach wants, with MB it's the other way around! We now have "A" players and a "B" coach. You gain respect as a coach when players know you have your act together, MB did not have his act/system together last season and now in Mb second season he does not have his act/system together again, in fact he has whole new system and a diffenent assistant to teach it. RA and PJ give teams stability, MB has no system and the players cannot feel confident that the head coach knows wtf he is doing, which creates instability!
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#26 GCMD

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Posted October 19, 2012 - 08:57 AM

It's not a big deal. Nash will run the offense the majority of the time. The Princeton will be one of the sets we use but most of the offense will come from Nash making the right decision. They knew that when they pursued him and they will depend on it down the stretch.


I expect more P&R implemented out of the princeton sets. We don't have enough shooters on the starting unit.

I'm not worried. They will figure it out...

#27 Bishop*

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Posted October 19, 2012 - 09:05 AM

people came at you hard so you decided to start a topic about it based on what sam said? lol dont listen to mitchell.

there are still guys on this team that ran the triangle(very similar in some ways to the princeton) and mostly have a profound knowledge of the game. there are also guys that know the princeton.

this team has some very intelligent players that wont have trouble with this system and nash will pick and roll much of the time if it is working. How ineffective can you imagine that being with nash , dwight , pau, and kobe on the wing?

Early on they will have things to work out with the system and learning each other, not to mention some possible bench juggling knowing brown but they will be a force to contend with when it matters.

Just having this kind of starting lineup alone could get them wins against many teams.


I agree with the thought process that the team will be running pick and roll or simple sets most of the time and practice the Princeton offense as the season progresses. They may be practicing the Princeton offense most of the time in the per-season. Lets just see what happens but I don't like what i have seen so far and it is not because are loosing.

#28 gque24

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Posted October 19, 2012 - 11:12 AM

Watching the preseason I commented on here that I was worried about the Lakers this year because of what i am seeing in the preseason and people came at me hard.

I was watching this video last night and Sam Mitchell explained what I have been trying to say better.

Why learn a new complicated offense now when you have only a 2year window to win a championship with this talent and basketball knowledge on your roster?



Cuz its not that much to figure out plus it has variations of Triangle. When you have skilled players it will be easy transition. For the bench they will struggle but thats why we got some vets to help the young bucks out. As long as D12, Kobe, & or Pau are mixed in with the bench players they will figure it out eventually.
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#29 Majesty

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Posted October 19, 2012 - 12:57 PM

Cuz its not that much to figure out plus it has variations of Triangle. When you have skilled players it will be easy transition. For the bench they will struggle but thats why we got some vets to help the young bucks out. As long as D12, Kobe, & or Pau are mixed in with the bench players they will figure it out eventually.



yes we're running Princeton, variations of the triangle, some sets we ran with Bynum and Gasol last year(which work better with Gasol and Howard) as well as running Pick and Roll with Nash.

We're running the perfect offense for adaptability of our players since it can play to their strength on many plays, not just one particular play.

I love our offense, it's our transition defense we need to work on.

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#30 Real Deal

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 12:37 AM

Let me say a few things, relating to the comments in this topic.

1) We HAVE to install and learn a new offense, doesn't matter the coach (unless it's Phil Jackson). The triangle can't be coached by anyone else in the league, and the "four out, one in" offense is not our best option (the offense we ran last season). Dwight and the Magic lived off of it, and Howard is a center you want in that offense (because it's built around him), but with Kobe, Nash and Gasol on this squad, Dwight doesn't have to have that massive role. The offense we ran last year, with Howard as our guy, would turn Kobe, Nash and Gasol into spot-ups...and it's true that we would ditch it for P&R action every now and then, but the relevant part is that we can't force three of our four best players to turn into role players.

2) Mike Brown may not be a stellar coach, but just understand this much: he doesn't need to have offensive coaching abilities. There are very, very few coaches in this league that can coach on both ends of the court. Gregg Popovich is still in San Antonio, so we aren't landing him. Doc Rivers won't be leaving Boston. Stan Van Gundy won't be following Dwight here. Jerry Sloan is retired, and Chuck Daly is no longer with us. Do you guys remember Larry Brown? He wasn't much of an offensive mastermind, but he's still the only coach to win a championship in both the NCAA and NBA. Phil Jackson was an offensive-minded coach that had no idea how to teach his teams defense. Tom Thibodeau is one of the better coaches in the league, except back on offense...and yet, his Bulls had a 60-win season. You know that guy by the name of Erik Spoelstra? He's a defensive-minded coach that told his guys, in 2010, to just run ISO's all game long...and, eventually, he and the staff put together a basic offense that won an NBA championship last season.

For the record, not that I really care to defend Brown (because he's annoying), but his defense has been better than Phil's. If our best perimeter defenders (Kobe and Ron) weren't getting older and hurt, the numbers would have been even more clear (although, they already support the idea to begin with).

Phil Jackson did what he could with a Lakers team that failed to get into the WCF in 2011, and yet, he wasn't left out of the conversation when we talked about who was to blame, because the way he managed the players' minutes was indeed questionable, and he had trouble adjusting to Dallas' ability to spread the floor as well. He didn't get in, and Brown's older Lakers team also didn't get there (but weren't swept), so let's not jump to conclusions in regards to what Mike Brown can and can't do with this current Lakers roster.

3) The Princeton is not going to be hard to learn, and we don't need Rick Adelman here to coach it. Eddie Jordan doesn't have the resume Adelman has, obviously, but he did have four consecutive .500 seasons under his belt in Washington, and those Wizards teams were bad on the defensive end...so bad that, in one season (where they managed to go 41-41), they were 28th in the NBA in defense, and 4th offensively.

Assistant coaches are more important than most realize. Ask Doc Rivers what ran through his head when he lost Thibodeau to Chicago.

Plus, as mentioned, we have Nash, Kobe and Gasol in this offense. Those three are among the ten smartest players in the league. Dwight's basketball IQ isn't too shabby, either, as most of what he learned came from SVG back in Orlando.

----------------

If someone wants to add fuel to a discussion, they will simply say that the team may not have enough time to learn an offense or defense. It's not that complicated. I'd rather believe that Sam Mitchell made that decision for that reason only...and it's true, teams DO have to worry about that. Most do. You can say that, and sound credible, as much as a former basketball coach and COTY can in Mitchell, but so what?

Remember a similar question that they discussed back in Boston, in 2008? How on Earth would those Celtics, with Garnett, Pierce, and Ray, be able to make something click THAT quickly? Well, it was because they all complimented each other, and they found a distributor by the name of Rajon Rondo...and they won it all their first season together.

Kobe, Dwight, and Gasol are in the same boat. They compliment each other, and they have a distributing PG by the name of Steve Nash.


Don't always take these statements and run with them, especially when you hear them on TV. Just do the math yourself, and look to past teams, players and coaches if you need confirmation.

#31 Tensai

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 03:51 AM

Sam Mitchell knows [expletive].

#32 SweatShop

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 12:45 PM

Phil Jackson was an offensive-minded coach that had no idea how to teach his teams defense.


come on now, make some great points and ruin it with a statement like that. phil was a smart defensive minded player and has nba experience that goes back 40 or more years. sure he is known for the triangle offense but to say he has no idea how to teach his teams defense is ludicrous. sure, you can call it fortune or give all the credit to players and assistants but the man has all those rings because of very dominant defensive(and offensive) teams.

sure, phil was frustrating at times and is no pop or l brown defensively(then again he never had to be larry brown) but thats just crazy talk.

Edited by SweatShop, October 20, 2012 - 04:56 PM.

Abdul-Jabbar told the San Francisco Chronicle last month he met Howard only once and that Howard expressed an interest in learning from the former Lakers captain but he never again reached out to Abdul-Jabbar.

‘He’s charming, he’s charismatic, very nice young man,’ Abdul-Jabbar said. ‘Maturity-wise, he doesn’t get it.’

#33 True Lakers Fan

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 12:53 PM

come on now, make some great points and ruin it with a statement like that. phil was a smart defensive minded player with what 40 or more years of nba experience. sure he is known for the triangle offense but to say he has no idea how to coach on the defensive end is ludicrous. sure, you can call it fortune or give all the credit to players and assistants but the man has all those rings because of very dominant defensive(and offensive) teams.

sure, phil was frustrating at times and is no pop or l brown defensively(then again he never had to be larry brown) but thats just crazy talk.



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#34 Disturbed

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 01:10 PM

Let me say a few things, relating to the comments in this topic.

1) We HAVE to install and learn a new offense, doesn't matter the coach (unless it's Phil Jackson). The triangle can't be coached by anyone else in the league, and the "four out, one in" offense is not our best option (the offense we ran last season). Dwight and the Magic lived off of it, and Howard is a center you want in that offense (because it's built around him), but with Kobe, Nash and Gasol on this squad, Dwight doesn't have to have that massive role. The offense we ran last year, with Howard as our guy, would turn Kobe, Nash and Gasol into spot-ups...and it's true that we would ditch it for P&R action every now and then, but the relevant part is that we can't force three of our four best players to turn into role players.

2) Mike Brown may not be a stellar coach, but just understand this much: he doesn't need to have offensive coaching abilities. There are very, very few coaches in this league that can coach on both ends of the court. Gregg Popovich is still in San Antonio, so we aren't landing him. Doc Rivers won't be leaving Boston. Stan Van Gundy won't be following Dwight here. Jerry Sloan is retired, and Chuck Daly is no longer with us. Do you guys remember Larry Brown? He wasn't much of an offensive mastermind, but he's still the only coach to win a championship in both the NCAA and NBA. Phil Jackson was an offensive-minded coach that had no idea how to teach his teams defense. Tom Thibodeau is one of the better coaches in the league, except back on offense...and yet, his Bulls had a 60-win season. You know that guy by the name of Erik Spoelstra? He's a defensive-minded coach that told his guys, in 2010, to just run ISO's all game long...and, eventually, he and the staff put together a basic offense that won an NBA championship last season.

For the record, not that I really care to defend Brown (because he's annoying), but his defense has been better than Phil's. If our best perimeter defenders (Kobe and Ron) weren't getting older and hurt, the numbers would have been even more clear (although, they already support the idea to begin with).

Phil Jackson did what he could with a Lakers team that failed to get into the WCF in 2011, and yet, he wasn't left out of the conversation when we talked about who was to blame, because the way he managed the players' minutes was indeed questionable, and he had trouble adjusting to Dallas' ability to spread the floor as well. He didn't get in, and Brown's older Lakers team also didn't get there (but weren't swept), so let's not jump to conclusions in regards to what Mike Brown can and can't do with this current Lakers roster.

3) The Princeton is not going to be hard to learn, and we don't need Rick Adelman here to coach it. Eddie Jordan doesn't have the resume Adelman has, obviously, but he did have four consecutive .500 seasons under his belt in Washington, and those Wizards teams were bad on the defensive end...so bad that, in one season (where they managed to go 41-41), they were 28th in the NBA in defense, and 4th offensively.

Assistant coaches are more important than most realize. Ask Doc Rivers what ran through his head when he lost Thibodeau to Chicago.

Plus, as mentioned, we have Nash, Kobe and Gasol in this offense. Those three are among the ten smartest players in the league. Dwight's basketball IQ isn't too shabby, either, as most of what he learned came from SVG back in Orlando.

----------------

If someone wants to add fuel to a discussion, they will simply say that the team may not have enough time to learn an offense or defense. It's not that complicated. I'd rather believe that Sam Mitchell made that decision for that reason only...and it's true, teams DO have to worry about that. Most do. You can say that, and sound credible, as much as a former basketball coach and COTY can in Mitchell, but so what?

Remember a similar question that they discussed back in Boston, in 2008? How on Earth would those Celtics, with Garnett, Pierce, and Ray, be able to make something click THAT quickly? Well, it was because they all complimented each other, and they found a distributor by the name of Rajon Rondo...and they won it all their first season together.

Kobe, Dwight, and Gasol are in the same boat. They compliment each other, and they have a distributing PG by the name of Steve Nash.


Don't always take these statements and run with them, especially when you hear them on TV. Just do the math yourself, and look to past teams, players and coaches if you need confirmation.


Lets just say I agree with your thoughts on coaches....However players have to buy into the coach...do they trust the coach. A coach needs to understand players and their personalities. it's not all about the x's and o's .Take a college coach that is great at x's and o's, but is not a good recruiter. Without the talent it does not matter how good of a x and o coach you are.
I do not think MB has the intangibles or is likeable or respected, that = failure...
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#35 SweatShop

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 01:28 PM

Don't do it. you gonna make yourself look like an idiot


assume what you want about me guy, i could care less what anyone here thinks of my intelligence. if i agree or dont agree with something im not going to worry about who said it. i agree with almost everything he said but that sort of statement gets to me. i could probably have exercised a little more tact but oh well, its not like im pioneering the lack that on here or on the internet in general.

Edited by SweatShop, October 20, 2012 - 01:30 PM.

Abdul-Jabbar told the San Francisco Chronicle last month he met Howard only once and that Howard expressed an interest in learning from the former Lakers captain but he never again reached out to Abdul-Jabbar.

‘He’s charming, he’s charismatic, very nice young man,’ Abdul-Jabbar said. ‘Maturity-wise, he doesn’t get it.’

#36 Real Deal

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 01:44 PM

come on now, make some great points and ruin it with a statement like that. phil was a smart defensive minded player with what 40 or more years of nba experience. sure he is known for the triangle offense but to say he has no idea how to coach on the defensive end is ludicrous. sure, you can call it fortune or give all the credit to players and assistants but the man has all those rings because of very dominant defensive(and offensive) teams.

sure, phil was frustrating at times and is no pop or l brown defensively(then again he never had to be larry brown) but thats just crazy talk.

In 2001, the Lakers were ranked 21st in the league, defensively, and they won their second ring of the three-peat.

We had good defensive teams, but don't step out there and say they were dominant. I don't consider 6th and 7th-ranked defensive teams (in one season, not all-time) dominant.

Chicago was a dominant defensive team because of Jordan, Pippen and Rodman, not because of Phil Jackson, but you know that.

Phil was once quoted, saying that the best defense is a great offense. There's a reason why he said that. He's not a defensive-minded coach, and he didn't stand in practice teaching defense. He continually failed to teach the Lakers how to defend the pick and roll, not only with Shaq, but with Drew and Gasol as well (and Gasol was mobile enough, and Drew didn't weigh 356 pounds). In-game changes, defensively, were never made with Phil...and again, there's a reason for that. Dallas dominated us with threes all series long in 2011, and he refused to adjust. The Thunder obliterated us with the P&R in 2012, and much like Phil has always done against the P&R (even in Chicago, sometimes), he let it bust our ass the entire series...and it wasn't just Drew that didn't step out to contest Westbrook's jumpers. Players were leaking to the rim, or having successful dribble-drives to the basket, cuts with no help, screens that left us standing still and wondering if we should go up or under, etc.

Phil Jackson is arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. I'll give it to him, simply because his ability to manage a team (not just teach an offense) blurred his inability to teach defense.

But, Jackson also landed very talented teams all throughout his career, especially offensive juggernauts (Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Pippen) and defensive standouts (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, Rodman, Artest, and even Shaq, just standing in the paint). He managed egos and coached what was an unstoppable offense against most teams. To say he was an excellent defensive coach, or even a good one, is foolish...because he wasn't. He's not Popovich, Larry Brown, Jeff or Stan Van Gundy, Auerbach, Heinsohn, Sloan, Riley, Collins, Carlesimo, Daly, Skiles, or even Mike Brown when it comes to defense.

#37 True Lakers Fan

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 01:47 PM

assume what you want about me guy, i could care less what anyone here thinks of my intelligence. if i agree or dont agree with something im not going to worry about who said it. i agree with almost everything he said but that sort of statement gets to me. i could probably have exercised a little more tact but oh well, its not like im pioneering the lack that on here or on the internet in general.



told ya homey lol

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#38 SweatShop

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 03:58 PM

@real deal- obviously phil was more of an offensive minded coach but that in no way means he has no idea how to teach his teams defense.

i did say defensively and offensively, i wasnt talking about any specific team or year. it was a generalization of his career not an opening for you to pick 1 year and try to pick a part a statement that does little to defend your own. maybe i could have worded that better but its beside the point. we could also sit here and get into semantics over the word dominance but again....

hmm you brought up that 2000-2001 seasons defensive ranking but neglected to mention their ranking for the previous year, what was that? oh yeah it was 1st. then was 7th in 01-02 . To be fair, those rings were not won in the regular season anyways and that whole 21st ranked stat does nothing to back up that statement that phil DOESNT KNOW HOW to teach his teams defense, it actually does more to affirm my point when you look at the season before and consider their need for it and over confident ways after.

by all means, he hasnt been the best defensive coach but that 2001 championship team didnt need to be, people have this tendency do avoid doing things they dont need to do. A teams defensive ranking during the reg season or post for that matter doesnt necessarily speak volumes of their coaches ability to teach it. How great did their d need to be against philly that year? they practically slept through that series, did it matter that iverson lit them up? there are always going to be exceptions to anything and in general(overall not referring to any one season), the lakers were dominant on the defensive end when they needed to be.

chicago had great defensive players but to think phil jackson had absolutely no hand in that teams d is dubious. im in no way saying the man was a defensive minded coach or even a large part of that d, but its basically impossible for him not to have imparted at least some knowledge onto his players, especially considering the defensive minded player he was and the way he coached in practice.

He continually failed to teach the Lakers how to defend the pick and roll, not only with Shaq, but with Drew and Gasol as well


Theres an old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. The man is a legend but not a magician, shaq was never going to be an effective pick and roll defender. as far as bynum, he isnt that type of player either, ask kareem how much of a joy he was to teach. just look at bynums lazy defense the last number of seasons and it becomes obvious that jesus himself couldnt have taught bynum to be a good pick and roll defender. Pau just lacks the physicality nor is he very quick. look at his weak screens, he sometimes plays lazy and relies on length as im sure windu will attest to lol. combine those poor p and r bigs with fisher and you dont exactly have a recipe for defensive success against the pick and roll.

The Thunder obliterated us with the P&R in 2012, and much like Phil has always done against the P&R (even in Chicago, sometimes), he let it bust our ass the entire series..



um, care to rethink that one? lol. me thinks phil must have been an armchair coach from montana then.

as far as dallas goes, there was no way they were going to win that series, you cant take away everything from a team and they were getting their defense shredded through penetration as well as dirk being unstoppable, defended or not. dallas was too good and the lakers were probably tired and were certainly over-confident. look at that defensive minded spoelstra, he didnt fare too well either.

look man, i know you know your stuff and i value your opinions and knowledge, but like i said, none of that proves that he has no idea how to teach his teams defense. thats really not something you can prove with stats and observations, at least in his case.

told ya homey lol


not at all homie, for some reason ,i doubt you even read his reply. and that has nothing to do with anything he said

Edited by SweatShop, October 20, 2012 - 04:40 PM.

Abdul-Jabbar told the San Francisco Chronicle last month he met Howard only once and that Howard expressed an interest in learning from the former Lakers captain but he never again reached out to Abdul-Jabbar.

‘He’s charming, he’s charismatic, very nice young man,’ Abdul-Jabbar said. ‘Maturity-wise, he doesn’t get it.’

#39 Real Deal

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 05:55 PM

Wait a minute. If what I'm saying doesn't validate my argument, how does anything you've said validate yours? All you're telling me is that Phil Jackson was a defensive-minded player, and therefore, he coaches a good defense. How well did Magic Johnson coach an offense?

And I didn't present my argument with just one season. I gave you reasons why Phil's teams were not great defensive teams, but of course, you're going to throw around the word "great" in this conversation. Great defensive teams are the 2004 Pistons, the Spurs dynasty, the 2008 and 2010 Celtics, the 1999 Knicks...teams that rank among the top 10 of all-time, by the numbers.

Kobe, Shaq, Harper, Fox and Green were all on that 2000 Lakers squad. What happened the following season, when they jumped from 1st to 21st? Harper played half a season, Green was gone, and Horace Grant and JR Rider were on our team. Fisher (who actually didn't play that bad on the defensive end, especially guarding the bigger post-up guards) played just 20 games the following season.

Do you think Flip Saunders is a solid defensive coach? He's horrible. He doesn't even care about his teams' defensive play. However, his 2006 Pistons (the team he stole from Larry Brown) maintained their 5th-ranked defense from the 2005 season. Didn't make Saunders a great defensive coach. It didn't make him a good defensive coach. He's not even average...but he can tell everyone he had the 5th-best defense in 2006.

He also had the 7th-best in 2007, and 4th best in 2008. His teams (that he coached) were actually better, defensively, than all of the Lakers teams that Phil coached. Would you say that Flip is a good defensive coach? Better than Phil? Right there with him?

Flip is horrendous on the defensive end. Phil Jackson is average. Both should not be considered when talking about the great, or even the good, defensive coaches in NBA history. That's all it boils down to.

EDIT: The 2012 Thunder team was a mistake, but the 2010 Thunder also burned us in the P&R. Brown didn't have much to do with it, and neither did Phil (PJ didn't coach our defense). Brown decided to adopt the idea that we should funnel our players to the baseline, and he ran with Bynum stepping out and defending all P&R's involving him (since they usually always did, that was the strategy against us), but Bynum refused it. That's understandable, because Drew was lazy. But Gasol, in 2008, 2009 and 2010...well, there was no excuse for it, and yet, Phil decided he should stay back.

#40 TKainZero

TKainZero

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Posted October 20, 2012 - 06:19 PM

Sam mitchell?

Edited by TKainZero, October 20, 2012 - 06:20 PM.





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