694 replies to this topic

[Majesty]

it was obvious that's what he was doing. why resort to whats comfortable in october, and not improve in the Princeton so they can be comfortable in that as well.

We know it's obvious But most people see nash struggling and say "BLAME MIKE BROWN!! SAY THE OFFENSE SUCKS!!!! NAME BETTER COACHES!!!" Because logical thinking is not sexy enough I guess.

Why do it in the midst of sacrificing games? Games that count? Games that can down the line come back to bite us in the ass potentially regarding playoff seeding & what not. I just hate the amount. Do some, that's fine, but when it comes down to it, don't flip the switch and do your P&Rs when it's too late. Win games!

[Majesty]

Why do it in the midst of sacrificing games? Games that count? Games that can down the line come back to bite us in the ass potentially regarding playoff seeding & what not. I just hate the amount. Do some, that's fine, but when it comes down to it, don't flip the switch and do your P&Rs when it's too late. Win games!

Because Nash would rather use the beginning of the season to build chemistry and master the Princeton. He already mastered the PnR and that's there whenever he wants it but Nash wants to master "Everything" so that we have every option and he feels like if he relies solely on PnR that no progress in the Princeton will be made and it will hinder the team in the long run because HE'S the quarterback with the freedom to do anything. So he wants to master everything so he can make any call he wants. To him that's part of what will make the Lakers in his own words "unguardable" in the future. Nash's planning for the long term success, not solely the short term. So it's going to take time.

Edited by Majesty, October 31, 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[last stand 2.0]

Why do it in the midst of sacrificing games? Games that count? Games that can down the line come back to bite us in the ass potentially regarding playoff seeding & what not. I just hate the amount. Do some, that's fine, but when it comes down to it, don't flip the switch and do your P&Rs when it's too late. Win games!

because unless we get comfortable now we'll have to get comfortable later. a Pick and roll offense has about as much championships as the princeton. but the pick and roll is simple. nash and our bigs will have that down immediately. if we can have the princeton down that gives us something we can go to when the offense stalls, when they load the paint, and in turn we can be varied.

the heat did something very similar last season. they run a ton of off ball movement for wade and lebron and then toss in a pick and roll here and there

you have to be multiple to win a title.

[Majesty]

because unless we get comfortable now we'll have to get comfortable later. a Pick and roll offense has about as much championships as the princeton. but the pick and roll is simple. nash and our bigs will have that down immediately. if we can have the princeton down that gives us something we can go to when the offense stalls, when they load the paint, and in turn we can be varied.

the heat did something very similar last season. they run a ton of off ball movement for wade and lebron and then toss in a pick and roll here and there

you have to be multiple to win a title.

Nail on the head. If we master the most difficult aspects early and the easier aspects come later and we can start our run mid season and after the all-star break. Once we get the Princeton down early, the Pick and Roll will always be there late. I'd much rather we struggle early and master it to use in our run later than winning games on Pick n Roll early and struggling with the Princeton late. All that matters is that everything is clicking by the time we reach the playoffs, but if we neglect the Princeton early in the season we could be struggling late like we're doing now and we need things clicking on "all" cylinders if we're gonna win the championship this year, ESPECIALLY against a team like the Heat.

Edited by Majesty, October 31, 2012 - 04:16 PM.

I understand all of that guys, but sacrificing games in the process? I just hope they don't come back to bite us in the ass come nearing playoff time (seeding).

[West Coast]

One thing to also remember is that when it comes playoff time, the game slows down dramatically and comes down to execution. Phil Jackson stressed this constantly during his coaching days and was a big reason why it resulted in his multiple titles.

We can run pick and roll, that's easy. But there needs to be some sort of understanding with this offense so teams need to game plan for both offensive sets and not just one.

Eric Pincus said it best today on Twitter with his string of tweets:

@EricPincus
I'm trying to remember - how many titles do Steve Nash teams have playing Steve Nash ball? Curious . . .

@EricPincus
I say that because Nash has been a supporter of the team offense - and as chosen to handcuff himself so he doesn't end the season same way

@EricPincus
Nash ball gets a lot of easy wins - hasn't landed any titles - and Nash is looking for more than what he's done in the past

@EricPincus
So to say Mike Brown is not using Nash correctly - actually Nash has the green light to run anything he wants at any time

@EricPincus
So in this case - look to Nash and question him - not Brown. Plenty of time to question Brown - but Nash is doing what he believes is right

@EricPincus
My point is - the Lakers are investing in this season - for a longer-term plan they believe will work - Nash, Brown, others

@EricPincus
Now if they're wrong and it doesn't work - have at it - but if you expect results now, you're not understanding what the team is doing

[Majesty]

One thing to also remember is that when it comes playoff time, the game slows down dramatically and comes down to execution. Phil Jackson stressed this constantly during his coaching days and was a big reason why it resulted in his multiple titles.

We can run pick and roll, that's easy. But there needs to be some sort of understanding with this offense so teams need to game plan for both offensive sets and not just one.

Eric Pincus said it best today on Twitter with his string of tweets:

Quote
@EricPincus
I'm trying to remember - how many titles do Steve Nash teams have playing Steve Nash ball? Curious . . .


Quote
@EricPincus
I say that because Nash has been a supporter of the team offense - and as chosen to handcuff himself so he doesn't end the season same way


Quote
@EricPincus
Nash ball gets a lot of easy wins - hasn't landed any titles - and Nash is looking for more than what he's done in the past

Quote
@EricPincus
So to say Mike Brown is not using Nash correctly - actually Nash has the green light to run anything he wants at any time

Quote
@EricPincus
So in this case - look to Nash and question him - not Brown. Plenty of time to question Brown - but Nash is doing what he believes is right


Quote
@EricPincus
My point is - the Lakers are investing in this season - for a longer-term plan they believe will work - Nash, Brown, others

Quote
@EricPincus
Now if they're wrong and it doesn't work - have at it - but if you expect results now, you're not understanding what the team is doing

Game, set, match

[L.A.K.E.R]

I hate the notion of sacrificing regular season games to adapt to a system. What was the point of preseason and training camp? We need every W we can get over the course of a season, all games are weighted equally. HCA is a must, no question. Games against undermanned teams missing their best player should be cakewalks for us. No excuse for last night's loss. We had the best, 2nd best, 3rd best, AND 4th best players on the floor last night. We had an overwhelming advantage and somehow ended up playing catch-up for the better portion of 3 quarters.

The problem here is that we are not running the Princeton at all. The Princeton is made to generate quick, efficient offense early in the shot clock. Backdoor cuts, high-low action between bigs, give-and-go with a facilitating big, bigs setting up guards for spot-up opportunities and movement off the ball. It's made to run up the pace of the game and lead to easy scoring opportunities each time down the floor. Early 00s Kings would push the pace offensively (they were always in the top 5) and they would just floor teams offensively by scoring upwards of 101+ points a night. Obviously they were 1st in the league when it came to offense.

Last night, we ended up running down the shot clock to less than 8 seconds on most possessions, having to throw up desperation looks to even get a shot up. It looked more like the offense from last season than something new on many occasions. I was actually shocked that at one point in the 3rd quarter we went to a straight Kobe Bryant isolation for almost half the shot clock with the rest of the team watching with zero movement off ball. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol were also on the floor. When you get to that point, you need to start playing smarter and attack the opposition in a different manner. That's where the coach is supposed to pull aside the players by calling a timeout and then tell them to change it up because clearly what they're doing is NOT working.

High P&R was money all night long, the Mavs had no clue on how to stop it. Eddy Curry was guarding Dwight Howard. We have Steve Nash available to run P&R and decimate an opponent that has Eddy Curry as the last line of defense. Let that sink in for a moment.

We only put up a total of 77 shots last night, ending up with 91 points while playing at a snail's pace. Yes, we got a ton of free throws, but they didn't do much to help us offensively. We made 12-31 attempts from the stripe. That means that we scored a mere 79 points from actual field goals attempted. This is a team with Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, and Steve Nash in the starting lineup. The fact that there was this much confusion on the offensive end and such a lack of production is a bit alarming. That was the point of the 0-8 preseason; to work out basic issues within the offense. A few missed rotations or some sloppiness was expected, but not to the point where every other possession looked like a mess from last season.

Clearly we have a LOT of work to do. A good start would be to actually run something that looks like the Princeton rather than passing along the perimeter for 16 seconds.

[last stand 2.0]

you're trying to end the party at 11:30

[Majesty]

I hate the notion of sacrificing regular season games to adapt to a system. What was the point of preseason and training camp? We need every W we can get over the course of a season, all games are weighted equally. HCA is a must, no question. Games against undermanned teams missing their best player should be cakewalks for us. No excuse for last night's loss. We had the best, 2nd best, 3rd best, AND 4th best players on the floor last night. We had an overwhelming advantage and somehow ended up playing catch-up for the better portion of 3 quarters.

The problem here is that we are not running the Princeton at all. The Princeton is made to generate quick, efficient offense early in the shot clock. Backdoor cuts, high-low action between bigs, give-and-go with a facilitating big, bigs setting up guards for spot-up opportunities and movement off the ball. It's made to run up the pace of the game and lead to easy scoring opportunities each time down the floor. Early 00s Kings would push the pace offensively (they were always in the top 5) and they would just floor teams offensively by scoring upwards of 101+ points a night. Obviously they were 1st in the league when it came to offense.

Last night, we ended up running down the shot clock to less than 8 seconds on most possessions, having to throw up desperation looks to even get a shot up. It looked more like the offense from last season than something new on many occasions. I was actually shocked that at one point in the 3rd quarter we went to a straight Kobe Bryant isolation for almost half the shot clock with the rest of the team watching with zero movement off ball. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol were also on the floor. When you get to that point, you need to start playing smarter and attack the opposition in a different manner. That's where the coach is supposed to pull aside the players by calling a timeout and then tell them to change it up because clearly what they're doing is NOT working.

High P&R was money all night long, the Mavs had no clue on how to stop it. Eddy Curry was guarding Dwight Howard. We have Steve Nash available to run P&R and decimate an opponent that has Eddy Curry as the last line of defense. Let that sink in for a moment.

We only put up a total of 77 shots last night, ending up with 91 points while playing at a snail's pace. Yes, we got a ton of free throws, but they didn't do much to help us offensively. We made 12-31 attempts from the stripe. That means that we scored a mere 79 points from actual field goals attempted. This is a team with Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, and Steve Nash in the starting lineup. The fact that there was this much confusion on the offensive end and such a lack of production is a bit alarming. That was the point of the 0-8 preseason; to work out basic issues within the offense. A few missed rotations or some sloppiness was expected, but not to the point where every other possession looked like a mess from last season.

Clearly we have a LOT of work to do. A good start would be to actually run something that looks like the Princeton rather than passing along the perimeter for 16 seconds.

You notice when we run a Princeton set everyone is familiar with guys are moving quickly to their spots and our offense looks smooth, usually early in the game. But then when we try to run other sets late some of the guys don't recognize it and stand still and the offense becomes stagnant. But we need defensive efficiency and intensity! While the offense is stll roughing out the edges our defense should be better.

Edited by Majesty, October 31, 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[L.A.K.E.R]

The point is that we were not running the Princeton offense last night. That excuse needs to be dropped.

It wasn't unfamiliarity that led to the loss last night, it was the team not running anything worthwhile at all. The Princeton offense that we've heard so much about, that analysts and bloggers have gushed about all summer long, was not on display last night. Anyone who was around for the early 00s saw how efficient those Kings teams were on that end of the floor. What we ran for 90% of the game last night was not the Princeton. Aside from a handful of possessions where we actually did something similar, we didn't see it in action. Kobe's dive to the basket off a Howard handoff is one that comes to mind.

I'm not worried about the effectiveness of the offense once we actually do run it, but I am worried by the amount of confusion shown by our players while on the floor last night. Doesn't help that Brown looked even more confused pacing the sidelines throughout the game.

[L.A.K.E.R]

You notice when we run a Princeton set everyone is familiar with guys are moving quickly to their spots and our offense looks smooth, usually early in the game. But then when we try to run other sets late some of the guys don't recognize it and stand still and the offense becomes stagnant. But we need defensive efficiency and intensity! While the offense is stll roughing out the edges our defense should be better.

We didn't run very many sets at all, that's the issue. After a full preseason plus training camp, we shouldn't have looked THAT confused on the offensive end. It was as if it was the first day of training camp or something.

When the offense hasn't done its job for 3 quarters, that's when the time comes to put it aside and turn to basic basketball to win a game. Talent trumps everything, and we clearly had the more talented players on the floor last night. Phil did this many times over the course of our recent Finals runs. Going to basic P&R basketball to generate offense should be a no-brainer if we aren't producing on that end with consistency. These losses count, all of them.

It's not the fact that we lost that is the problem, but HOW we lost. I don't want this team to sacrifice what should be easy Ws on the calendar just for the sake of a system that might not be ready until Spring.

[Majesty]

We didn't run very many sets at all, that's the issue. After a full preseason plus training camp, we shouldn't have looked THAT confused on the offensive end. It was as if it was the first day of training camp or something.

When the offense hasn't done its job for 3 quarters, that's when the time comes to put it aside and turn to basic basketball to win a game. Talent trumps everything, and we clearly had the more talented players on the floor last night. Phil did this many times over the course of our recent Finals runs. Going to basic P&R basketball to generate offense should be a no-brainer if we aren't producing on that end with consistency. These losses count, all of them.

It's not the fact that we lost that is the problem, but HOW we lost. I don't want this team to sacrifice what should be easy Ws on the calendar just for the sake of a system that might not be ready until Spring.

See but the overlooked aspect isn't the offensive struggles more so than the defensive ones.

nash pretty much sums it up last night when he said that Offense can struggle but you can still box out, still call out assignments, still show effort on defense. He said that we need to show more defensive intensity while the offense comes around. I agree wholeheartedly.

Dallas shouldn't have scored, what 25 points in the first quarter against us point blank.

Edited by Majesty, October 31, 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[L.A.K.E.R]

See but the overlooked aspect isn't the offensive struggles more so than the defensive ones.

nash pretty much sums it up last night when he said that Offense can struggle but you can still box out, still call out assignments, still show effort on defense. He said that we need to show more defensive intensity while the offense comes around. I agree wholeheartedly.

Dallas shouldn't have scored, what 25 points in the first quarter against us point blank.

He is the last guy that should be talking about effort defensively. He was blown by far too easily on numerous occasions. Not surprised though, this is Steve Nash we're talking about. The team was completely disengaged last night, on both ends. What compounded that was our head coach just standing on the sideline without a clue on how to get them going on either end.

Dallas scored 25 in the 1st quarter, we scored 29. The next two quarters we scored 17 and 20 points. Regardless of the new system, we have far too much talent to be putting up such meager offensive production. We are not the Charlotte Bobcats. That won't get it done, especially if we're going up against a legitimate defensive team. Dallas is a bad defensive team, they didn't hold us to 91 points, we held ourselves back. Our offense shouldn't struggle like it did last night. We don't have Derek Fisher manning the point, we have Steve Nash.

Brown should realize that it might be a good idea to utilize him more often when we don't get anything going. None of that "Nash has free reign" excuse either. What's the point of having a head coach if he'll just leave everything to his point-guard to decide? Especially one on a brand new team with new teammates and playing in a system he has never dealt with before? It's just foolish.

[bfc1125roy]

He is the last guy that should be talking about effort defensively. He was blown by far too easily on numerous occasions. Not surprised though, this is Steve Nash we're talking about. The team was completely disengaged last night, on both ends. What compounded that was our head coach just standing on the sideline without a clue on how to get them going on either end.

Dallas scored 25 in the 1st quarter, we scored 29. The next two quarters we scored 17 and 20 points. Regardless of the new system, we have far too much talent to be putting up such meager offensive production. We are not the Charlotte Bobcats. That won't get it done, especially if we're going up against a legitimate defensive team. Dallas is a bad defensive team, they didn't hold us to 91 points, we held ourselves back. Our offense shouldn't struggle like it did last night. We don't have Derek Fisher manning the point, we have Steve Nash.

Brown should realize that it might be a good idea to utilize him more often when we don't get anything going. None of that "Nash has free reign" excuse either. What's the point of having a head coach if he'll just leave everything to his point-guard to decide? Especially one on a brand new team with new teammates and playing in a system he has never dealt with before? It's just foolish.

Agree 100%. As much as I've seen "Nash has free reign" repeated a million times on this site, stating a fact over an over again doesn't make it any better of an argument.

Honestly, I saw the Princeton being run a bit during the 1st quarter. There was the Howard-Kobe handoff that reminded me of the Triangle. And some great ball movement sequences too. But after that i wasn't sure what I was seeing. I thought maybe I just didn't know the offense well enough because I've never played in it, but after reading posts here it's clear that LA was running some hybrid BS or just didn't know what to do.

At that point, Mike Brown has to step in and just use the [expletive]ing talent on the team. We have Nash/Kobe/Gasol/Howard in our starting lineup, there's no way they should all score 17 points combined in a quarter (didn't even realize it was that little!). There's 3 pick and roll plays that should guarantee a basket right off the bat. And those 4 have high basketball IQs and should be able to figure out some way to get the ball in the hole. But the initiative has to come from the coach. Kobe did get a bit pissed and start scoring, as did Howard, but ultimately without the entire team a few buckets is not going to be enough to win the game.

Edited by bfc1125roy, October 31, 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[Majesty]

Lots of updates incoming

[Majesty]

Dwight feels pretty good and is sinking free throws. Nash optimistic about playing tomorrow. And Kobe says the Offense isn't the reason they've lost.

@LakersReporter

Kobe (foot) did not practice. No surprise as he told me how sore he was after the B2B. But he's "day to day," & will play tomorrow.

@LakersReporter

Kobe: it's close to "idiotic" & "funny" to question an offensive system 2 games in. Says it should be very obvious that it'll take time.

@LakersReporter

Kobe recognizes that the O wasn't even the problem in 2 losses. LAL have been efficient on O. Communication, urgency on D lacking.

@LakersReporter

Steve Blake will likely start at PG tomorrow night against the Clippers. He's better in chippy games

After hitting 15 of 19 FT's last night, here's @DwightHoward shooting more after practice:
http://telly.com/Q9PV5

‏@LakersReporter

Positive health news for Dwight Howard, who feels "pretty good" after the opening back-to-back (78 total minutes).

@LakersReporter

Mike Brown: "I truly believe this group is OK." He understands criticisms, but expected (& still expects) it to take time.

‏@LakersReporter

Nash actually isn't ruling out playing tomorrow, saying he's "hopeful" his leg will feel better, & noted he's an optimistic guy.

@LakersReporter

Whether Nash plays tomorrow or not, the good news is the leg confusion is nothing serious & won't bleed much into the season.

@LakersReporter

On the O, @SteveNash said: "I'm not worried about myself." He thinks there are plenty of spots he can assert himself as season goes

@LakersReporter

The focus for Nash right now is - once his leg feels better - to figure out how to involve his teammates. It's his nature.

To a Laker fan that said Nash should be given freedom to run the offense the way he sees fit

@LakersReporter

@AmericasGB - But he does have freedom. It's his decision what to do every time down for early offense, including running screen/roll.

Edited by Majesty, November 01, 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Majesty]

Injury Report on Steve Nash

http://blog.lakers.com/lakers/2012/11/01/nash-doubtful-for-clippers/

Steve Nash is listed as “doubtful” to face the Clippers on Friday night after suffering a lower leg contusion at Portland on Halloween, but he didn’t rule himself out entirely.

“We’ll see how it goes, see how it calms down some more, but I couldn’t tell from this point,” he said after Thursday’s practice. “Maybe I’m too optimistic to say ‘doubtful,’ but it’s definitely tough.”

It was the second time in two weeks a young point guard collided with Nash in the backcourt. On Oct. 21, Kings rookie Isaiah Thomas stepped on Nash’s ankle, but the Canadian bounced back to return to practice the next day. At Portland 10 days later, rookie Damien Lillard accidentally drove his knee into Nash’s lower leg in the second quarter, causing the contusion.

Fortunately for Nash and the Lakers, it’s nothing worse than a painful bruise.

“Luckily it’s not any major structurally or something,” said the two-time MVP. “It’s just a contusion in that area.”

After emerging from the visitor’s locker room at the Rose Garden with a yellow protective sleeve over his lower leg, Nash gave it a go to start the third quarter, but he lasted just over a minute, unable to move laterally.

“By the time I got off the training table, there was almost no time on the clock to warm up, so I ran out there and took a couple shots,” he explained. “But I didn’t have time to test it laterally and as soon as I tried to make a lateral movement, it just gave out on me. I thought I was going to be able to finish the game, but it just wasn’t ready last night.”

He’s more frustrated than anything else.

“To take a knock like that, this time you want to be out there fighting and trying to scrape a win,” he concluded. “It’s frustrating, but sometimes you need to take a deep breath and think the big picture, and play with the hand you’re dealt.”

Nash will be re-evaluated on a daily basis as he and the training staff try to determine when he can get back on the court.

[True Lakers Fan]

ramonashelburne ‏@ramonashelburne
Mike Brown said Steve Nash "said he doesn't want to [play pick and roll everytime] anymore because it wears him out."