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Bynum > Howard


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#81 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 01:36 PM

You never know. Tim Duncan is a top 10 player all time and I'd argue he wasn't THAT athletic or big in his younger year but he always bested the much more athletic KGs and webbers

Not saying Bynum is even in duncans stratosphere but just saying that drive and determination count for a lot. Andrew ha those things

You could argue Kobe was athletic but not special like Jordan or bron, he has small hands, and arguably is very easily injured but he forced his way into the top 10 all time.

Now Bynum isn't these guys and probably will never even be near them but I just don't think you can underestimate a guy with his edge and drive. Bynum may never be great but I'm positive he'll push himself to maximize his potential. Which is enough for me as a fan.

I want him here because I think we can win a championship with him. Whether it's as a 1 or 2 we will see but regardless I expect another superstar wing in a laker uniform not too long after Kobe retires
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#82 gque24

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 02:06 PM

3 games without Kobe in lineup Bynum shooting 37.5% as the featured guy! No Kobe he struggles offensively because the attention goes mostly to him! When Kobe is out there along with Pau it makes the game much easier for Bynum to score. He aint ready to take on being #1 option. Dwight is #1 option and can handle that load Drew not capable.
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#83 Real Deal

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 03:07 PM

You never know. Tim Duncan is a top 10 player all time and I'd argue he wasn't THAT athletic or big in his younger year but he always bested the much more athletic KGs and webbers

Not saying Bynum is even in duncans stratosphere but just saying that drive and determination count for a lot. Andrew ha those things

You could argue Kobe was athletic but not special like Jordan or bron, he has small hands, and arguably is very easily injured but he forced his way into the top 10 all time.

Now Bynum isn't these guys and probably will never even be near them but I just don't think you can underestimate a guy with his edge and drive. Bynum may never be great but I'm positive he'll push himself to maximize his potential. Which is enough for me as a fan.

I want him here because I think we can win a championship with him. Whether it's as a 1 or 2 we will see but regardless I expect another superstar wing in a laker uniform not too long after Kobe retires

Well, for me, Kobe and Duncan are going to be two exceptions because they have dominated with the all-around skills that, really, only rival Jordan and Hakeem's (picking a two-guard and center here).

I think my beef with this discussion is that there is nothing to base it off of (Drew being better). All things considered, I like Howard on offense, and I especially like him on defense. Will Anthony Davis be Hakeem, or Marcus Camby? Who knows...as much as we know how Drew would do over a course of an entire 82 games as a primary option, where he is asked to make up for the 30th-ranked defense in the NBA. Massive shoes to fill.

When players have yet to take that step, I really don't like to speculate. Now, if Drew was 19 and he was already thrown into the fire as a primary option, we have something to discuss...but today, even when you throw out his age, he hasn't proven anything to me other than he is a very good #2 option.

#84 Majesty

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 04:18 PM

Well, for me, Kobe and Duncan are going to be two exceptions because they have dominated with the all-around skills that, really, only rival Jordan and Hakeem's (picking a two-guard and center here).

I think my beef with this discussion is that there is nothing to base it off of (Drew being better). All things considered, I like Howard on offense, and I especially like him on defense. Will Anthony Davis be Hakeem, or Marcus Camby? Who knows...as much as we know how Drew would do over a course of an entire 82 games as a primary option, where he is asked to make up for the 30th-ranked defense in the NBA. Massive shoes to fill.

When players have yet to take that step, I really don't like to speculate. Now, if Drew was 19 and he was already thrown into the fire as a primary option, we have something to discuss...but today, even when you throw out his age, he hasn't proven anything to me other than he is a very good #2 option.


At the same time I can say that Dwight Howard was put in a franchise player position, but he made it to the finals once, and hasn't been anywhere near it since then. We can blame management or say that his team got weaker instead of stronger which can be legit claims but the thing is. As a franchise player I can say that Dwight had a more complete team around him when they went to the finals and were bounced in 5 by the Lakers. But at the same time I can say that every year since then he's fallen shorter and shorter in terms of standings or how long they last in the playoffs.

So if Dwight is a franchise player but his team this year has dropped from the 3rd to the 7th seed along with all the drama within it. I need to ask myself if Dwight would be a better 2 option on another team than the franchise player because when I consider Dwight a number one option I ask myself, if he is the franchise if I added a legitimate number 2, would they get to the finals that year? I am still on the fence about it.

Dwight has proven that he can take a complete team to the finals especially when he has a good backup center. Because I try to look at Dwight's success in terms of the team that was around him at the time as well.

The year they went to the finals the Magic had a diamond in the ruff in Gortat which was the perfect backup center for Dwight. So I really don't buy the entire "Dwight led a team to the finals by himself in 2009." he had a good team around him that was clicking on all cylinders and they had a deeper bench than they got credit for and let's not forget that year, Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson AND Dwight all made the all-star game and had Nelson not gotten injured he would have played in it. So for half of that season it wasn't Dwight by himself, it was also Nelson that helped lead that team on the run they went on, and Rashard Lewis was playing at an all star level. The Magic had a squad, it wasn't just a bunch of nobodies. And then in the next year they were favorites in the division while keeping most of their pieces but losing a few others didn't stop them from making it all the way to the conference finals sweeping BOTH teams in the first round and then where they were fell by the Celtics in 6 games. It was at that point I first wondered if Dwight could really lead a team to a championship being the number 1 option or if he was more like LeBron and a 'really really good' number 2.

It was after this they got rid of Gortat and Lewis and got Vince Carter I believe. So I watched from that point because I realized that Dwight didn't have as complete a team around him and had no real backup center or depth at that position other than himself.

So I watched the Magic tear through the East a lot, trying to have the chip on their shoulder, and then I watched them get bounced by the Hawks the team they swept a year earlier.


Through all this I came to the conclusion in my mind that Dwight as the PRIMARY option for a team building around him is NOT enough to win a championship. Heck even if you sent him to the Lakers where many feel or predict he'd win a championship he'd be the 2nd option on that team to Kobe much like Bynum is now, if I thought hard enough about it I might be able to think of some scenario that Dwight as the primary option on a team could lead to a championship but I really can't see it.

These are the teams I saw or see Dwight getting to the finals again with

Lakers
Warriors(before they got rid of Ellis)
Miami
Chicago

Maybe a few others, but outside of some extremely weak team that desperately needs him(which I wouldn't see making the finals anyway) I really think the only team Dwight would be a primary option on would be the Magic, and they aren't going to the finals.

So I'm not so sure Dwight as the "primary" on any team would lead a team to the finals myself.

Edited by Majesty, April 12, 2012 - 04:21 PM.

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#85 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 05:39 PM

Well, for me, Kobe and Duncan are going to be two exceptions because they have dominated with the all-around skills that, really, only rival Jordan and Hakeem's (picking a two-guard and center here).

I think my beef with this discussion is that there is nothing to base it off of (Drew being better). All things considered, I like Howard on offense, and I especially like him on defense. Will Anthony Davis be Hakeem, or Marcus Camby? Who knows...as much as we know how Drew would do over a course of an entire 82 games as a primary option, where he is asked to make up for the 30th-ranked defense in the NBA. Massive shoes to fill.

When players have yet to take that step, I really don't like to speculate. Now, if Drew was 19 and he was already thrown into the fire as a primary option, we have something to discuss...but today, even when you throw out his age, he hasn't proven anything to me other than he is a very good #2 option.


Thats fair. I guess we'll have to wait until he's thrust into the fire to truly know
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#86 Cj2008nw

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 06:49 PM

Bynum struggling on offense since Kobe has been out so I still say howard> Bynum

#87 pointguard11

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 07:13 PM

At the same time I can say that Dwight Howard was put in a franchise player position, but he made it to the finals once, and hasn't been anywhere near it since then. We can blame management or say that his team got weaker instead of stronger which can be legit claims but the thing is. As a franchise player I can say that Dwight had a more complete team around him when they went to the finals and were bounced in 5 by the Lakers. But at the same time I can say that every year since then he's fallen shorter and shorter in terms of standings or how long they last in the playoffs.

So if Dwight is a franchise player but his team this year has dropped from the 3rd to the 7th seed along with all the drama within it. I need to ask myself if Dwight would be a better 2 option on another team than the franchise player because when I consider Dwight a number one option I ask myself, if he is the franchise if I added a legitimate number 2, would they get to the finals that year? I am still on the fence about it.

Dwight has proven that he can take a complete team to the finals especially when he has a good backup center. Because I try to look at Dwight's success in terms of the team that was around him at the time as well.

The year they went to the finals the Magic had a diamond in the ruff in Gortat which was the perfect backup center for Dwight. So I really don't buy the entire "Dwight led a team to the finals by himself in 2009." he had a good team around him that was clicking on all cylinders and they had a deeper bench than they got credit for and let's not forget that year, Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson AND Dwight all made the all-star game and had Nelson not gotten injured he would have played in it. So for half of that season it wasn't Dwight by himself, it was also Nelson that helped lead that team on the run they went on, and Rashard Lewis was playing at an all star level. The Magic had a squad, it wasn't just a bunch of nobodies. And then in the next year they were favorites in the division while keeping most of their pieces but losing a few others didn't stop them from making it all the way to the conference finals sweeping BOTH teams in the first round and then where they were fell by the Celtics in 6 games. It was at that point I first wondered if Dwight could really lead a team to a championship being the number 1 option or if he was more like LeBron and a 'really really good' number 2.

It was after this they got rid of Gortat and Lewis and got Vince Carter I believe. So I watched from that point because I realized that Dwight didn't have as complete a team around him and had no real backup center or depth at that position other than himself.

So I watched the Magic tear through the East a lot, trying to have the chip on their shoulder, and then I watched them get bounced by the Hawks the team they swept a year earlier.


Through all this I came to the conclusion in my mind that Dwight as the PRIMARY option for a team building around him is NOT enough to win a championship. Heck even if you sent him to the Lakers where many feel or predict he'd win a championship he'd be the 2nd option on that team to Kobe much like Bynum is now, if I thought hard enough about it I might be able to think of some scenario that Dwight as the primary option on a team could lead to a championship but I really can't see it.

These are the teams I saw or see Dwight getting to the finals again with

Lakers
Warriors(before they got rid of Ellis)
Miami
Chicago

Maybe a few others, but outside of some extremely weak team that desperately needs him(which I wouldn't see making the finals anyway) I really think the only team Dwight would be a primary option on would be the Magic, and they aren't going to the finals.

So I'm not so sure Dwight as the "primary" on any team would lead a team to the finals myself.

Well said....

Can a team go to Dwight to win a game in the last few seconds? How can he be a primary scoring option when he is not that skilled offensively and he can't hit free throws at the end of the game? He is no Shaq where he dominates the whole game. His athleticism helps him create havoc on defense and he is a strong force there but he is not a number one scoring option on a championship team
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#88 Real Deal

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Posted April 12, 2012 - 11:44 PM

Well said....

Can a team go to Dwight to win a game in the last few seconds? How can he be a primary scoring option when he is not that skilled offensively and he can't hit free throws at the end of the game? He is no Shaq where he dominates the whole game. His athleticism helps him create havoc on defense and he is a strong force there but he is not a number one scoring option on a championship team

Dwight would dominate with a superstar by his side...even if that superstar was Kobe (at his age). Get real, people. Do you guys even watch the Orlando Magic play, or how teams play Dwight for the entire 38-40 minutes he's on the court? Do you not see what happens when teams refuse to double him?

The year they went to the finals the Magic had a diamond in the ruff in Gortat which was the perfect backup center for Dwight. So I really don't buy the entire "Dwight led a team to the finals by himself in 2009." he had a good team around him that was clicking on all cylinders and they had a deeper bench than they got credit for and let's not forget that year, Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson AND Dwight all made the all-star game and had Nelson not gotten injured he would have played in it. So for half of that season it wasn't Dwight by himself, it was also Nelson that helped lead that team on the run they went on, and Rashard Lewis was playing at an all star level. The Magic had a squad, it wasn't just a bunch of nobodies. And then in the next year they were favorites in the division while keeping most of their pieces but losing a few others didn't stop them from making it all the way to the conference finals sweeping BOTH teams in the first round and then where they were fell by the Celtics in 6 games. It was at that point I first wondered if Dwight could really lead a team to a championship being the number 1 option or if he was more like LeBron and a 'really really good' number 2.

Gortat was an excellent backup center? Tony Battie was on the court more than he was in 2009...Gortat at 63 games, around 12 minutes per. He was a second year player. Battie logged more minutes on the court that year, played in more games for Orlando.

Nelson played well. Shard was an all-star strictly based on his three-point shooting, all spoon-fed to him by Dwight, and I know you know that. He attempted seven threes a game, shot 40% from there, racked up what...nearly 18 PPG, which is the ONLY reason why he was an all-star. His defense (and Nelson's) were abysmal, and while Nelson could do more than shoot the three, Shard had nothing else in his skillset to depend on, and that's why he became one of the most overpaid, overrated players in the NBA a year or two later.

or if he was more like LeBron and a 'really really good' number 2.

This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. LeBron is the best player in the NBA. Anyway...

It was after this they got rid of Gortat and Lewis and got Vince Carter I believe. So I watched from that point because I realized that Dwight didn't have as complete a team around him and had no real backup center or depth at that position other than himself.

So I watched the Magic tear through the East a lot, trying to have the chip on their shoulder, and then I watched them get bounced by the Hawks the team they swept a year earlier.

Through all this I came to the conclusion in my mind that Dwight as the PRIMARY option for a team building around him is NOT enough to win a championship.

LOL. In other words, when he lost his team, he struggled...like Kobe did in 2005, 2006 and 2007. Basically, he was Kobe in 2008, who got to the Finals and was bounced by the better team, despite having an all-star teammate in Pau Gasol, and even a pretty good (borderline all-star) teammate in Lamar Odom. Ah.

You're reaching.

The Magic play through Howard, almost more than any other team plays through their franchise player (won't go too far, because Cleveland played through LeBron more than I've seen anyone since Kobe in 2006, but still). That resulted in a Finals appearance on a team with a legit all-star PG and a good three-point shooter that played off of Howard more than anyone in Dwight's career.

You pull Russell Westbrook away from the Thunder, and leave it up to Harden (who is better than every single player on the Magic not named Howard), and the Thunder are at a risk of losing in the first round, despite Durant being a legitimate primary option and superstar.

Andrew has proven absolutely nothing as a primary option. Fact. So, in light of this news, it would make zero sense to say that he could even take ANY team to the NBA Finals as such...simple as that.

Anyone disagreeing is a Laker homer, and I love the game FAR much more than I do a single team.

#89 Majesty

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 02:30 AM

Dwight would dominate with a superstar by his side...even if that superstar was Kobe (at his age). Get real, people. Do you guys even watch the Orlando Magic play, or how teams play Dwight for the entire 38-40 minutes he's on the court? Do you not see what happens when teams refuse to double him?


Gortat was an excellent backup center? Tony Battie was on the court more than he was in 2009...Gortat at 63 games, around 12 minutes per. He was a second year player. Battie logged more minutes on the court that year, played in more games for Orlando.

Nelson played well. Shard was an all-star strictly based on his three-point shooting, all spoon-fed to him by Dwight, and I know you know that. He attempted seven threes a game, shot 40% from there, racked up what...nearly 18 PPG, which is the ONLY reason why he was an all-star. His defense (and Nelson's) were abysmal, and while Nelson could do more than shoot the three, Shard had nothing else in his skillset to depend on, and that's why he became one of the most overpaid, overrated players in the NBA a year or two later.


This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. LeBron is the best player in the NBA. Anyway...


LOL. In other words, when he lost his team, he struggled...like Kobe did in 2005, 2006 and 2007. Basically, he was Kobe in 2008, who got to the Finals and was bounced by the better team, despite having an all-star teammate in Pau Gasol, and even a pretty good (borderline all-star) teammate in Lamar Odom. Ah.

You're reaching.

The Magic play through Howard, almost more than any other team plays through their franchise player (won't go too far, because Cleveland played through LeBron more than I've seen anyone since Kobe in 2006, but still). That resulted in a Finals appearance on a team with a legit all-star PG and a good three-point shooter that played off of Howard more than anyone in Dwight's career.

You pull Russell Westbrook away from the Thunder, and leave it up to Harden (who is better than every single player on the Magic not named Howard), and the Thunder are at a risk of losing in the first round, despite Durant being a legitimate primary option and superstar.

Andrew has proven absolutely nothing as a primary option. Fact. So, in light of this news, it would make zero sense to say that he could even take ANY team to the NBA Finals as such...simple as that.

Anyone disagreeing is a Laker homer, and I love the game FAR much more than I do a single team.


You and I will have to disagree that LeBron is the best player in the NBA. LeBron ain't the best player in the NBA till he gets 5 rings. Having all the talent in the world means nothing if you shrink in the moments that win you them, hence why he is 2nd option to Wade, because Dwayne can actually win in those scenarios and actually has the ring to prove it. But that's another story.

Yes Howard had 3 point shooters around him, that was the strategy of the kind of team that's around him, for when he's double teamed to kick it out to three point shooters it sounds like a simple strategy. RLewis was getting fed from Howard and knocking down threes yes but at the same time Nelson and Howard benefited a lot from each other and it wasn't AS one sided as you want to make it sound.

I also think you're stretching by saying Harden is better than every single player on the Magic not named Howard, if we go back to that championship run I thoroughly disagree. And Howard has good players on his team right now, they are just ALL three point shooters which was the point of getting people off Howard on the inside. What Howard has proven as a primary option is the ability that with an all star 3 point shooter and an all star point guard on his team(or at least playing at that level) that he can MAKE it to the finals. But I don't blow it up that much, I look at it as how far the team makes it in the finals. LeBron James made the finals, but was swept in 4 games, Dwight made the finals but was beaten in 5.


These are as the primary options. Do you for one second think LeBron is the primary option in Miami? He isn't, that honor still goes to Dwayne Wade who also serves as their closer. LeBron was and always will be a "very good secondary option" on a team if he or that team is going anywhere.

Franchise players aren't always destined to be primary options. Quite honestly LeBron wasn't going to win a championship being THE GUY on a team with talent built around him. It wasn't going to happen. Dwight Howard ISN'T going to win a championship being THE GUY on a team with talent built around him. They both need to go elsewhere to play 2nd fiddle to someone else in order to win or have a chance at a championship. This is why I said that Dwight like LeBron will turn out to be a "really really good 2nd option/"

The reason Kobe doesn't fall into this category is because even when Champioship teams fell apart when they made it back to the finals those 3 years in a row HE WAS the primary option on that team. The biggest difference between Kobe, Howard and LeBron is this.

You can build a team around Kobe full of talent and a very good roleplayer and Kobe can take you to the finals AND win you a championship as your teams primary option. You CANNOT build a team around Dwight while keeping him your primary option and win a championship. Nor could you do that with LeBron. That is why LeBron went to be the 2nd option to Dwayne Wade and why if Howard is ever going to win a ring he's going to be 2nd option to somebody else.

We could argue back and forth the point on Ariza and Bynum both being injured in 2008 when Kobe and Gasol took the Lakers to the finals but I digress. The point is this

Kobe can be the primary option surrounded by roleplayers and win you a championship or two. You cannot say the same about either LeBron, or Howard and that's all there is to it. So in this case, I do not see them winning a championship as ANY teams primary, and thus they shall always be really really good 2 options to me. It's not a terrible knock, really good 2 options can be forced into the primary option and take a team far, but ultimately not win them a championship.
Example: Scottie Pippen right after MJ left.

Edited by Majesty, April 13, 2012 - 02:48 AM.

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#90 GCMD

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 08:10 PM

Howard has a herniated disc (back).

#91 Cj2008nw

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:15 PM

Lebron is the best player in the NBA? :laughing:

#92 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:21 PM

he is
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#93 MDI

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:22 PM

Bynum might end up being All NBA 1st team. Howard done for the season

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Props to sidthekid871


#94 eZZy

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:23 PM

It's sad to admit, but Lebron is the best player in the NBA right now. It's just that he disappears in clutch situations.

Bynum might end up being All NBA 1st team. Howard done for the season


Who do you think will win the MIP award?

#95 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:24 PM

It's sad to admit, but Lebron is the best player in the NBA right now. It's just that he disappears in clutch situations.



Who do you think will win the MIP award?


should be bynum. Lin disappeared and then got injured
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#96 Majesty

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:24 PM

It's sad to admit, but Lebron is the best player in the NBA right now. It's just that he disappears in clutch situations.


Then he isn't the best player in the NBA right now.

How can he be the best player in the NBA right now if you don't know how to WIN? He isn't even the best player on the Heat.

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#97 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:26 PM

Bynum might end up being All NBA 1st team. Howard done for the season


i don't think missing 6 games is enough to pull howard out. however he has 2nd team locked. i wonder if kobe will get 1st team with his scoring being so high
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#98 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:27 PM

Then he isn't the best player in the NBA right now.

How can he be the best player in the NBA right now if you don't know how to WIN? He isn't even the best player on the Heat.


lol no. wade is not the same player at all anymore. he's lost a step

also lebron is having a top 10 greatest statistical season of all time
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#99 Majesty

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:28 PM

lol no. wade is not the same player at all anymore. he's lost a step

also lebron is having a top 10 greatest statistical season of all time


Injury prone seasons can do that.

And so is Kobe one year after being supposedly "done".

And it isn't always about stats, Wilt may have more top 10 greatest statistics than Kareem but you wouldn't say Wilt was/is better than him.

LeBron is as he always was, great for stat padding and Sportscenter guru's to compare statistically to players of the past that played a different position than him(at least when they comapred Lin's statistics to being better than Magic they were both point guards lol)

But when it comes time to WIN he shrinks. And nearly 10 years in the league he still doesn't know how. Till he does he ain't the best.

Edited by Majesty, April 13, 2012 - 09:33 PM.

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#100 last stand 2.0

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Posted April 13, 2012 - 09:32 PM

Injury prone seasons can do that.


it amazes me. people considered him the next MJ after 2006.

this was the exact reason why i said lebron should have went to chicago. he'd probably be working on his 2nd ring already. i knew with wade there was a short window. even if lebron wins 1 or 2 thats pretty much the top out. wade has already started his downswing and is only 30
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