...so we agree he is one-dimensional, and that all he does is provide quick scoring off the bench.
That's all that needs to be said, and that's what I've been repeating every post I've made in here.
Good for Gerald. He is what we thought he was.
Generally, you have demonstrated that you are incapable of following nuance in the discussion above. That is why you are surprised that we agree with you, but not perfectly. repole's, your, and my points are similar but divided by conditionals.
repole's point was merely that he felt he knew since Green's rookie year that Green would likely never amount to anything more than a nice role player. That was his point the whole time. It was based on his observation that he didn't think Green would ever learn to dribble expertly. Some things he was disagreeing with you was on your hyperbolic tone on some of your points--he cannot shoot, he is clueless on defense, he has a bad attitude--which are directly contradicted by video evidence, actual games played, journalists' accounts, and interviews. But he was agreeing with you on the main point.
*Why dribbling is important to this discussion*
The key point I have been making can be reduced to the following pair of conditional statements: 1. "If Green becomes an expert dribbler, then he will likely become a star; 2. "If he fails to master it then he will end up just being a minor role player." In other words, without dribbling skills, the key disagreement in this thread between you and me would vanish. Obviously, you disagree with the first statement and the need for a conditional in the second. Incidentally, repole also disagreed with my first statement, because he thought it was unlikely. Anyway, I am not going to argue this point again.
So why is dribbling essential for Green to master if he wants to become a superstar. An expert dribbler is someone who can keep his dribble alive under control despite defensive pressure without turning it over and still be able to make plays. Players with his body type and size without expert dribbling ability are rarely stars. The reason is because the expert dribbler gains greater responsibilities and opportunities. He can play the point or playmaker or create his own shots. You can run an offense through him. And the level of skill cannot just be passable; it must be expert. Landry Fields is a nice athlete who can dribble, but you don't give him the keys to your offense if you can help it.
How bad is Green? It's uncertain for me, but repole thinks it's not good enough. And he has convinced me. Recently, when the Nets were left with only the ineffective Sundiata Gaines active at point, Avery resorted to starting MarShon. You suggest that this is because MarShon is a better playmaker than Green, who you think can dribble decently but has weak court vision and passing ability, maybe like a Derek Fisher but much worse. I was thinking that Green was more valuable off the ball as a scorer because the team was weak at scoring at the time. But when I think of it, Green hasn't handled the ball in that point capacity much, if he ever did, for the Nets. I just cannot recall. In a desperate situation, you always want your best ballhandlers running the point. That is why MarShon played point. It is not convincing to say that Green wasn't given the opportunity to play the point because he can't pass or because he's a ball hog. If he could really dribble, Avery probably would have preferred to keep the ball out of Sundiata's hands. But I don't think they even experimented.
BTW, you also mention Stevenson to say he got playing time because he was a better defender. But the fact is that Green was taking up more of his playing time and is one of the reasons why Stevenson is now out of the rotation. Your point here is irrelevant. And the reason I disagree with your point that Green is an especially bad defender is because you are being hyperbolic. Green is ineffective at defense like the average NBA player that I have seen. But he gives effort. When I think of atrocious defense, I think of someone like Amar'e Stoudemire in Phoenix, when he often seemed totally clueless and apathetic as to what his assignment was. That is not Green on the Nets. That is what Green was in Boston. This is a distinction to which if you refuse to believe it, it only says that you are not watching. I have not said that Green was the next Scottie Pippin. I have been agreeing with you that he is ineffective. I cannot tell whether you are just one of those people who thinks any disagreement between two people must be because they have taken polar opposite sides.
Anyway, without expert dribbling ability Green becomes very limited. He just becomes any other athlete who can dunk and shoot. That's because there is not much you can do from the wing if you can't dribble well enough and are not big enough to post up everyone. And while he is a good shooter from 3, he is no Novak. And while he is a very good mid-range shooter, a role for this in role players are generally limited. In other words, you and I would be in agreement.
*Practicing to dribble*
I've been under the impression that only certain people could learn to dribble expertly if they would just put in the work. I didn't think people like Eddie Jones would develop it. And he didn't. I don't think Ebanks can either. But he's still young and has time. We'll see. But I'd been thinking that Green would be able to. But repole's observations has cast great doubt in me that he can. Because of this, while I started posting on this thread in frustration, now I'm over it and have sobered.
The reason I have changed my mind about Green is a cause of disagreement between us. Ahh says that everyone can improve his ball handling skill. I agree. Still, while I have never had any contact with repole before and I don't know who he is, for whatever reason, he and I both had been noticing a peculiarity regarding the development of basketball dribbling skills, which is that there seems to be a cap on the max potential of how well you can dribble no matter how long you practice it.
Take Derek Fisher, who we all believe is a dedicated professional. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he worked hard to improve his ball handling skill. He had been playing point guard since he was young. But why didn't this determined worker become a better point guard with the ball than he ended up to be? Even if he lacked the court vision or the agility of star guards, he was still fast enough, agile enough, and was definitely strong enough to do more with the ball if he could have. Even today, this is true. He is remarkably fit for his age. And from interviews, I know his pride is big and that he wanted to be a top guard. But he couldn't. He left us as one of the worst point guards in the league in part because his ball handling was not expert enough. And I don't think he was bad because of his age. He looked the same with the ball as he had for a long time.
Ostensibly, dribbling seems like an activity that is akin to jumping and throwing punches--motions in which big muscle contractions crowd out the sense of a need for limber dexterity--and less like piano fingering. Something like that. But what if this is wrong?
repole felt that Green's max cap may be very low. And I think he might be right. You say that this argument is unheard of. I think it is an interesting idea. But what I do not find convincing is the idea that Green is too unmotivated to want to learn to dribble better. If his lust for scoring is as big as you say it is, then he would have learned to play around with his dribble by now if he could have. As everyone knows, you need to dribble at a certain level if you want to show off your freak athleticism and length by getting to the rim with the ball. But most of his moves serve to gain him a good looking shot, not a way to the rim. There is something strange about that because he is doing what you would expect of a much less athletic shooter than of the freak athlete we were expecting. Green doesn't play point and doesn't really slash. His best dribble work seem to come within the context of certain basketball moves which result in a shot. We will just have to remain in disagreement about why that is.
Anyway, I'd prefer the idea that he is lazy to the idea that you really cannot improve your dribbling beyond a certain point.
Edited by CoinFlip, March 21, 2012 - 08:40 AM.