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We definitely should have signed Gerald Green


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#141 CoinFlip

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 11:25 AM

Ball handling, to me, is the type of thing that is rarely improved significantly upon after entering the league. Guys can tighten up their dribble a bit, but for the most part, they are what they are. It's something that basketball players spend pretty much their entire life improving upon. Green started playing organized ball relatively late, and as a sophomore (I believe) in high school he was a 6'2" center who didn't make the varsity roster. He was a 15 year old sophomore who wasn't getting any interest from colleges (or his own high school team), he's very much a late bloomer basketball wise. Because of that, he lacked a lot of fundamental skills and training coming out of high school, and it's very much been an uphill battle to develop those skills. Some, like shooting the ball, can be developed quicker than others, like handling the ball.

It's the same reason that Delonte West still can't dribble with his left hand, it's just hard to develop ball handling skills this late in a career.


Yeah, about the age thing, if it is true, then that kind of makes sense. Maybe that's why Eddie Jones didn't become a ball handler when Kobe arrived. See, you know how a lot of guards learn to dribble with one arm and have to pick up the other arm later. And they pick up the other arm usually later in life. But I suppose they can do it if the muscles had already been primed somehow because they'd practiced without mastering along the way.

I didn't think Green could really do much with the ball when he was in Boston. But when I saw him pulling out these moves recently, which require a couple of dribbles, I thought that he may be able to learn it after all. Watching these moves also made me think that he was better than he showed. But I think I was using lazy psychoanalysis while watching him without really thinking about it. When I saw him passing the ball when pressured in the half court, I thought he was just trying to do the right thing by swinging the ball, you know, to try to repair his reputation around the league. He was hustling and rotating and saying all the right things so I thought his swinging the ball was just him trying to be a team player and not a ball stopper. But if he can't learn to dribble real soon like a guard, then he really won't be able to take full advantage of his athleticism and his go to moves. If he can't learn the dribble, then his max potential might be as an undersized wing forward. And the advantage of him as a large, athletic guard would only be an illusion.

What a shame. I thought he'd have it by now. That's incredible that that's what you saw back then--that he wasn't going to get the elite dribbling skill. Just knowing that gave you a prognosticating advantage over people who didn't really follow his career but were interested. You had the advantage over me because I was hoping that he would get it.

I am sure you are aware that Bynum, who was in the same draft, added his power post play only recently, sort of like how Green added his post game recently. It was not long ago when Bynum had no idea how to do this. So what that means is that learning to dribble in the post up maneuver is something that can be learned in muscle memory much much later than the guard skill. Or did they already prime their muscles when they played center in high school?

How awful for Green. And interesting. Thank you for the reply.
:)

#142 repole

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 11:57 AM

Yeah, about the age thing, if it is true, then that kind of makes sense. Maybe that's why Eddie Jones didn't become a ball handler when Kobe arrived. See, you know how a lot of guards learn to dribble with one arm and have to pick up the other arm later. And they pick up the other arm usually later in life. But I suppose they can do it if the muscles had already been primed somehow because they'd practiced without mastering along the way.

I didn't think Green could really do much with the ball when he was in Boston. But when I saw him pulling out these moves recently, which require a couple of dribbles, I thought that he may be able to learn it after all. Watching these moves also made me think that he was better than he showed. But I think I was using lazy psychoanalysis while watching him without really thinking about it. When I saw him passing the ball when pressured in the half court, I thought he was just trying to do the right thing by swinging the ball, you know, to try to repair his reputation around the league. He was hustling and rotating and saying all the right things so I thought his swinging the ball was just him trying to be a team player and not a ball stopper. But if he can't learn to dribble real soon like a guard, then he really won't be able to take full advantage of his athleticism and his go to moves. If he can't learn the dribble, then his max potential might be as an undersized wing forward. And the advantage of him as a large, athletic guard would only be an illusion.

What a shame. I thought he'd have it by now. That's incredible that that's what you saw back then--that he wasn't going to get the elite dribbling skill. Just knowing that gave you a prognosticating advantage over people who didn't really follow his career but were interested. You had the advantage over me because I was hoping that he would get it.

I am sure you are aware that Bynum, who was in the same draft, added his power post play only recently, sort of like how Green added his post game recently. It was not long ago when Bynum had no idea how to do this. So what that means is that learning to dribble in the post up maneuver is something that can be learned in muscle memory much much later than the guard skill. Or did they already prime their muscles when they played center in high school?

How awful for Green. And interesting. Thank you for the reply.
:)



I mean when the Celtics drafted Green I pinned pretty much all my hopes and dreams on him, I was convinced he was going to be the next McGrady like a lot of other people. The first problem I noticed though was the ball handling, and while I defended against any GG bashing, the one argument I always had trouble going against was that Gerald simply wasn't a good enough ball handler to be a star. I tried to reference guys who improved their handle drastically while in the league, but it's damned near impossible to find guys who do. I think some of the early expectations on Green were unfair, but it seems people have readjusted now for the most part.

I still have hope that Green can have a Rip Hamilton type impact on a team. He certainly has some valuable skills, it's only a matter of a team utilizing them properly, and Gerald continuing to stay focused and work hard.

EDIT: on a somewhat related note, I'm a student at Michigan and watched Darius Morris pretty closely here, if anyone has any questions regarding him I'd be glad to answer :)

Edited by repole, March 19, 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#143 CoinFlip

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 12:08 PM

In fact, his senior year, one of the best things he could do was take a guy off the dribble, and part of that has to do with ball handling.

The issue? There's a massive difference between high school and the pros, and Gerald Green never did have an excuse for not turning himself into a borderline all-star.

I would take Green over most of our bench (said this a few times already), but to bash the organization for letting him go, and to act as if this was really THAT big of a deal...I don't buy it. We would still be a horrible road team, Green would definitely not have the opportunities he's getting on a poor team in the Eastern Conference, and above everything else, our defense would suffer against elite teams in this league if we were to declare him a starter (and we probably would try, since we gave Ebanks a run at it).


I think repole may be right. There would be a couple of things strange about his Nets play if you were to expect him to break out some fancy dribbling to help his team. It's been bugging me, but I tried to rationalize it away. His game does make a lot more sense to me if I were to believe that he cannot really dribble.

The game he has put together is impressive. It just happens not to be star material without the ball handling. Ball handling is the only thing lacking in his game and the only thing keeping him from glory. I promise. His shot is good and so are his scoring moves. But he won't be able to get them off against a good defense.

So I think you should reappraise him because I promise you he looks like he has put in a lot more work in his game than both of us had assumed.

He is not going to be a superstar not because of a lack of effort but because of biology.

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Edited by CoinFlip, March 19, 2012 - 12:21 PM.


#144 Real Deal

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 12:37 PM

Dribbling is not what has kept him from being a solid player in this league.

I'm not really sure if this is trolling or not. I have never, in my life, heard this from anyone else...and I've ran an NBA site for over seven years.

There are MANY players in the NBA who have had the athleticism and physical abilities to become stars, but they have never put it together. Gerald Green is no different, and nothing matters in regards to how much of a late bloomer he was, how bad he dribbles, or how much higher he can jump than Kobe Bryant.

Gerald Green is a 26-year old, five season player who missed two seasons not due to injury, but because of how bad he was, simple as that.

Before this season, Andrew Bynum played four seasons (in games) in six years, came straight out of high school as raw as anyone not named Serge Ibaka (who has picked up his game incredibly fast as well). Same with Kobe, who took three seasons to develop an all-star's game.

Michael Jordan actually saw quite a bit of failure as a high school basketball player. Didn't matter.

There are no excuses for Gerald Green, except that he never did get the job done because his basketball IQ was too low, he was very limited outside of his athleticism, and he never learned how to apply that athletic ability to his defense (like LeBron James has).

Everything I have said is true, up to this point and beyond. Why is Gerald Green doing so well, statistically, right now? Sure, he has improved slightly, but he has ELEVEN total games under his belt for this horrible Nets team, coming off the bench against other bench players. The Nets are desperate for production in their starting five, so why isn't he starting? It's because MarShon Brooks does more with the ball in his hands, and when DeShawn Stevenson was starting, it was because he was playing five times the defense Green does.

I wouldn't post in this topic if a few of you weren't saying this guy could be a very good player in the future. The grass on that side of the fence has caught fire and won't grow back. Green will never be a spot-up shooter, he will never create for anyone else on his team, he will never defend, and he will never do anything aside from creating his own shot. He is restricted to isolation play, and that is why he is on the Nets and not the Lakers (or any contender). Miami had a chance to keep him after a workout a few summers ago. Dallas could have kept him. Boston didn't want him. LA didn't want him. Houston waived him after one game (in a game where he scored six points in three minutes, perfect shooting) because he was selfish during practice and played little to no defense. Minnesota dealt him for Kirk Snyder because Green was coming in and attempting four threes in the 12 minutes a night he was playing, taking almost all of them off the dribble.

Eleven games, versus other bench players, on a horrible team desperate for offensive production, and ranked the worst defensive team in the NBA for a reason (that reason includes Green, who gives up more points than he scores). You guys can think what you want, but nothing will change, with how I see him or how valuable he will be to a real team, in a complex offense that asks him to do more than your average one-dimensional Flip Murray.

#145 CoinFlip

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 12:50 PM

Real Deal, are you saying that you really believe that every NBA player right now who can't dribble could learn to dribble if they would only give the effort? Because I have long doubted that to be true. But as you say, I never heard of this either.

Edited by CoinFlip, March 19, 2012 - 12:55 PM.


#146 Bynumite17

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 12:56 PM

Real Deal, are you saying that you really believe that every NBA player right now who can't dribble could learn to dribble if they would only give the effort? Because I have long doubted that to be true. But as you say, I never heard of this.


That's how you become a better player, by working on your game. I couldn't dribble as I was a big, but here came varsity and I had to change my game and that meant my drives and dribbling. Same goes with every part of the game really with an exception to IQ even then you can watch tapes and learn and understand the game more.

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#147 repole

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:04 PM

Dribbling isn't what caused him to fall out of the league, I'm only suggesting that it's what holds him back from being better now that he's in the league again. What held him back earlier in his career was his attitude, BBIQ, focus, ego, and general lack of appreciation for his spot in the league. Those close to Gerald will tell you the dunk contest win was the worst thing that happened to him, he thought he was a star before he was even a passable NBA player.

That's different now though. I don't know that because of 11 games with the Nets, I know that because of time in Dallas, Russia, China, and the DLeague. I know that because getting cut from Houston clearly changed his outlook drastically, and the result has been a very different person.

He didn't shoot the ball well in Dallas, but the coaching staff was pretty fond of him and would have welcomed him back. The Mavs encouraged and helped him go overseas because they understood he needed playing time more than anything else to develop, and ultimately that was the right choice for Gerald.


Our only disagreements seem to be that:
a. You don't think Gerald can be a spot up shooter
I've seen him play in this role, in fact, in the DLeague that's most of what he did. Fortson ran the offense, Green played mostly off the ball. Were there ISOs for him? Absolutely, but if you watched the games you'd see that it wasn't the only way he scored. He's the type of guy who benefits greatly from drive and kick 3s as well as using screens to get open.

b. You aren't convinced he's adjusted his attitude/desire/etc.
Watch any these post game interviews with him and it's pretty easy to see that he's a more mature person. His coaches love him, his teammates love him.

#148 Real Deal

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:10 PM

Real Deal, are you saying that you really believe that every NBA player right now who can't dribble could learn to dribble if they would only give the effort? Because I have long doubted that to be true. But as you say, I never heard of this either.

I'm saying that Gerald Green will always be a one-dimensional player, because that's all he has been for the last decade and because he doesn't have the skills, the work ethic, or the basketball IQ, to quickly make that change.

I have no idea why anyone is talking about his dribbling (or lack of), or how high he jumps. If this was AND1 streetball, that would matter...but it's obvious why those guys aren't in the league (with the exception of Rafer Alston, who didn't last long).

Green can shoot 50% for 11 games...doesn't mean squat to me. Shannon Brown shot 50% FG, 40% 3PT, and 90% FT for half a season...and then, he finished the season at 42.5% FG, 34.9% 3PT. Why? Because 82 games is how you judge a player, not eleven...and even then, Shannon's role on the team was very similar to that of Gerald Green's, although Brown was more of a spot-up shooter...both were one-dimensional bench players who were asked to come into the backcourt and score points as quickly as possible. Neither play defense, create shots for others, handle the ball well, or play as good teammates.

Like I said...Flip Murray came into the games he played and scored buckets...but because he was a liability in every other corner of the game, he found himself on multiple teams, playing on eight or nine teams in eight seasons before disappearing from the league.

There is nothing about Gerald Green, back then or today, that makes me think he will change.

#149 CoinFlip

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:10 PM

I mean when the Celtics drafted Green I pinned pretty much all my hopes and dreams on him, I was convinced he was going to be the next McGrady like a lot of other people. The first problem I noticed though was the ball handling, and while I defended against any GG bashing, the one argument I always had trouble going against was that Gerald simply wasn't a good enough ball handler to be a star. I tried to reference guys who improved their handle drastically while in the league, but it's damned near impossible to find guys who do. I think some of the early expectations on Green were unfair, but it seems people have readjusted now for the most part.


Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 guys who might fit, who might have learned to dribble pretty well as late starters, though I am not certain if this is the case--Shawn Marion and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think they could dribble. But then they played point forward a bit. Marion did when we played them in Las Vegas a while ago, if I am remembering right. I don't know if they can still do it.

#150 repole

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:18 PM

I'm saying that Gerald Green will always be a one-dimensional player, because that's all he has been for the last decade and because he doesn't have the skills, the work ethic, or the basketball IQ, to quickly make that change.


I guess you're right, no player has ever changed, has ever re-adjusted their attitude. I suppose maturing between the ages of 19 and 26 is something that you simply don't believe in?

#151 repole

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:19 PM

Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 guys who might fit, who might have learned to dribble pretty well as late starters, though I am not certain if this is the case--Shawn Marion and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think they could dribble. But then they played point forward a bit. Marion did when we played them in Las Vegas a while ago, if I am remembering right. I don't know if they can still do it.


Iggy was a quality ball handler in college, pretty much has always been regarded as a point forward type.
I'm not old enough to remember Marion's early days though.

#152 West Coast

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:21 PM

Love reading threads where Real Deal drops knowledge on everyone.

#153 Real Deal

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:24 PM

I guess you're right, no player has ever changed, has ever re-adjusted their attitude. I suppose maturing between the ages of 19 and 26 is something that you simply don't believe in?

You're assuming all he has to do is flip a switch in his brain. No, that's not what he has to do. Flip Murray's problem wasn't immaturity, it was him not picking up the pro game of basketball as easily as he did when he was at Shaw (when he was dropping 20+ a night and doing it efficiently).

It's not going to matter, though. You guys will continue to believe he'll become a starter-level player for a contending team...doesn't really concern me at this point. We had a lot of Sasha Vujacic fans on TLN, once.

#154 repole

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:27 PM

You're assuming all he has to do is flip a switch in his brain. No, that's not what he has to do. Flip Murray's problem wasn't immaturity, it was him not picking up the pro game of basketball as easily as he did when he was at Shaw (when he was dropping 20+ a night and doing it efficiently).

It's not going to matter, though. You guys will continue to believe he'll become a starter-level player for a contending team...doesn't really concern me at this point. We had a lot of Sasha Vujacic fans on TLN, once.


There's no flip switching, the changes in his attitude and work ethic have happened over the past 5 years. If you honestly think that a guy can't have a rude awakening and re-adjust the way he approaches things I guess we just have a fundamental disagreement on mankind in general.

Best part is I'm not even claiming he'll be a starter level player on a contending team, just that he could provide a team like the Celtics some quick points off the bench and, with the right team defensive system in place, not kill a team in other facets of the game. The NBA is a league of roles, for every Kobe there's 5 guys on the bench who have one specialized skill and don't do much else, but still contribute to a team. Gerald's one dimensional, but that dimension's gotten better over time, along with his weaknesses becoming less and less of an issue.

#155 Real Deal

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 01:30 PM

...so we agree he is one-dimensional, and that all he does is provide quick scoring off the bench.

That's all that needs to be said, and that's what I've been repeating every post I've made in here.

Good for Gerald. He is what we thought he was.

#156 Majesty

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 02:31 PM

...so we agree he is one-dimensional, and that all he does is provide quick scoring off the bench.

That's all that needs to be said, and that's what I've been repeating every post I've made in here.

Good for Gerald. He is what we thought he was.



See..now I have to put this


Is Wayne Brady gonna have to Djokovic? - Robert Flores


#157 gque24

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 02:50 PM

I'm saying that Gerald Green will always be a one-dimensional player, because that's all he has been for the last decade and because he doesn't have the skills, the work ethic, or the basketball IQ, to quickly make that change.

I have no idea why anyone is talking about his dribbling (or lack of), or how high he jumps. If this was AND1 streetball, that would matter...but it's obvious why those guys aren't in the league (with the exception of Rafer Alston, who didn't last long).

Green can shoot 50% for 11 games...doesn't mean squat to me. Shannon Brown shot 50% FG, 40% 3PT, and 90% FT for half a season...and then, he finished the season at 42.5% FG, 34.9% 3PT. Why? Because 82 games is how you judge a player, not eleven...and even then, Shannon's role on the team was very similar to that of Gerald Green's, although Brown was more of a spot-up shooter...both were one-dimensional bench players who were asked to come into the backcourt and score points as quickly as possible. Neither play defense, create shots for others, handle the ball well, or play as good teammates.

Like I said...Flip Murray came into the games he played and scored buckets...but because he was a liability in every other corner of the game, he found himself on multiple teams, playing on eight or nine teams in eight seasons before disappearing from the league.

There is nothing about Gerald Green, back then or today, that makes me think he will change.



^^ I agree with you mostly now but whats so cr8z is coming str8 out of highschool Green had all the potential in the world. He had a legit 3 ball in his arsenal and mid range plus the stupid athleticism! Those years of losing in Boston and learning absolutely nothing from Pierce (who must have not even tried to take the kid under his wing and mentor him) ruined his development. Shattered his confidence and created this outlook he now has on the game. Under the right coach and direct veteran leadership from his days of first enterting in NBA would have made this kid a solid player in NBA. But now he will just continue to be a journey man.
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#158 CoinFlip

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Posted March 19, 2012 - 08:53 PM

Fraaaak! Firefox crashing! Long responses disappearing!!!!

#159 CoinFlip

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Posted March 20, 2012 - 01:06 AM

...so we agree he is one-dimensional, and that all he does is provide quick scoring off the bench.

That's all that needs to be said, and that's what I've been repeating every post I've made in here.

Good for Gerald. He is what we thought he was.

Generally, you have demonstrated that you are incapable of following nuance in the discussion above. That is why you are surprised that we agree with you, but not perfectly. repole's, your, and my points are similar but divided by conditionals.

repole's point was merely that he felt he knew since Green's rookie year that Green would likely never amount to anything more than a nice role player. That was his point the whole time. It was based on his observation that he didn't think Green would ever learn to dribble expertly. Some things he was disagreeing with you was on your hyperbolic tone on some of your points--he cannot shoot, he is clueless on defense, he has a bad attitude--which are directly contradicted by video evidence, actual games played, journalists' accounts, and interviews. But he was agreeing with you on the main point.

*Why dribbling is important to this discussion*
The key point I have been making can be reduced to the following pair of conditional statements: 1. "If Green becomes an expert dribbler, then he will likely become a star; 2. "If he fails to master it then he will end up just being a minor role player." In other words, without dribbling skills, the key disagreement in this thread between you and me would vanish. Obviously, you disagree with the first statement and the need for a conditional in the second. Incidentally, repole also disagreed with my first statement, because he thought it was unlikely. Anyway, I am not going to argue this point again.

So why is dribbling essential for Green to master if he wants to become a superstar. An expert dribbler is someone who can keep his dribble alive under control despite defensive pressure without turning it over and still be able to make plays. Players with his body type and size without expert dribbling ability are rarely stars. The reason is because the expert dribbler gains greater responsibilities and opportunities. He can play the point or playmaker or create his own shots. You can run an offense through him. And the level of skill cannot just be passable; it must be expert. Landry Fields is a nice athlete who can dribble, but you don't give him the keys to your offense if you can help it.

How bad is Green? It's uncertain for me, but repole thinks it's not good enough. And he has convinced me. Recently, when the Nets were left with only the ineffective Sundiata Gaines active at point, Avery resorted to starting MarShon. You suggest that this is because MarShon is a better playmaker than Green, who you think can dribble decently but has weak court vision and passing ability, maybe like a Derek Fisher but much worse. I was thinking that Green was more valuable off the ball as a scorer because the team was weak at scoring at the time. But when I think of it, Green hasn't handled the ball in that point capacity much, if he ever did, for the Nets. I just cannot recall. In a desperate situation, you always want your best ballhandlers running the point. That is why MarShon played point. It is not convincing to say that Green wasn't given the opportunity to play the point because he can't pass or because he's a ball hog. If he could really dribble, Avery probably would have preferred to keep the ball out of Sundiata's hands. But I don't think they even experimented.

BTW, you also mention Stevenson to say he got playing time because he was a better defender. But the fact is that Green was taking up more of his playing time and is one of the reasons why Stevenson is now out of the rotation. Your point here is irrelevant. And the reason I disagree with your point that Green is an especially bad defender is because you are being hyperbolic. Green is ineffective at defense like the average NBA player that I have seen. But he gives effort. When I think of atrocious defense, I think of someone like Amar'e Stoudemire in Phoenix, when he often seemed totally clueless and apathetic as to what his assignment was. That is not Green on the Nets. That is what Green was in Boston. This is a distinction to which if you refuse to believe it, it only says that you are not watching. I have not said that Green was the next Scottie Pippin. I have been agreeing with you that he is ineffective. I cannot tell whether you are just one of those people who thinks any disagreement between two people must be because they have taken polar opposite sides.

Anyway, without expert dribbling ability Green becomes very limited. He just becomes any other athlete who can dunk and shoot. That's because there is not much you can do from the wing if you can't dribble well enough and are not big enough to post up everyone. And while he is a good shooter from 3, he is no Novak. And while he is a very good mid-range shooter, a role for this in role players are generally limited. In other words, you and I would be in agreement.

*Practicing to dribble*
I've been under the impression that only certain people could learn to dribble expertly if they would just put in the work. I didn't think people like Eddie Jones would develop it. And he didn't. I don't think Ebanks can either. But he's still young and has time. We'll see. But I'd been thinking that Green would be able to. But repole's observations has cast great doubt in me that he can. Because of this, while I started posting on this thread in frustration, now I'm over it and have sobered.

The reason I have changed my mind about Green is a cause of disagreement between us. Ahh says that everyone can improve his ball handling skill. I agree. Still, while I have never had any contact with repole before and I don't know who he is, for whatever reason, he and I both had been noticing a peculiarity regarding the development of basketball dribbling skills, which is that there seems to be a cap on the max potential of how well you can dribble no matter how long you practice it.

Take Derek Fisher, who we all believe is a dedicated professional. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he worked hard to improve his ball handling skill. He had been playing point guard since he was young. But why didn't this determined worker become a better point guard with the ball than he ended up to be? Even if he lacked the court vision or the agility of star guards, he was still fast enough, agile enough, and was definitely strong enough to do more with the ball if he could have. Even today, this is true. He is remarkably fit for his age. And from interviews, I know his pride is big and that he wanted to be a top guard. But he couldn't. He left us as one of the worst point guards in the league in part because his ball handling was not expert enough. And I don't think he was bad because of his age. He looked the same with the ball as he had for a long time.

Ostensibly, dribbling seems like an activity that is akin to jumping and throwing punches--motions in which big muscle contractions crowd out the sense of a need for limber dexterity--and less like piano fingering. Something like that. But what if this is wrong?

repole felt that Green's max cap may be very low. And I think he might be right. You say that this argument is unheard of. I think it is an interesting idea. But what I do not find convincing is the idea that Green is too unmotivated to want to learn to dribble better. If his lust for scoring is as big as you say it is, then he would have learned to play around with his dribble by now if he could have. As everyone knows, you need to dribble at a certain level if you want to show off your freak athleticism and length by getting to the rim with the ball. But most of his moves serve to gain him a good looking shot, not a way to the rim. There is something strange about that because he is doing what you would expect of a much less athletic shooter than of the freak athlete we were expecting. Green doesn't play point and doesn't really slash. His best dribble work seem to come within the context of certain basketball moves which result in a shot. We will just have to remain in disagreement about why that is.

Anyway, I'd prefer the idea that he is lazy to the idea that you really cannot improve your dribbling beyond a certain point.

Edited by CoinFlip, March 21, 2012 - 08:40 AM.


#160 Real Deal

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Posted March 20, 2012 - 03:36 AM

I'm sorry, but you seriously have to be related to Green to find some of these excuses and projections.

repole's point was merely that he felt he knew since Green's rookie year that Green would likely never amount to anything more than a nice role player. That was his point the whole time. It was based on his observation that he didn't think Green would ever learn to dribble expertly. The only thing he was disagreeing with you was on your hyperbolic tone on some of your points--he cannot shoot, he is clueless on defense, he has a bad attitude--which is directly contradicted by video evidence, actual games played, journalists' accounts, and interviews. But he was agreeing with you on this main point.

The games you gave me were ridiculous. You tried showing me that he can make 1-2 mid-range shots in a game (in eight of his 12, no more than two outside of the paint, minus threes). Is this a serious discussion? In a game against a team that didn't let him get off his shots, contested everything (Miami Heat), he crumbled and looked like the D-Leaguer he really is.

He IS clueless on defense. I gave you statistics to prove it. He is the 8th best defender on one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. What video are you going to show me that disproves it?

He left us as one of the worst point guards in the league in part because his ball handling was not expert enough.

What? That was Fisher's problem? No. Fisher's problem was that he was not a point guard. He was a one-dimensional spot-up two-guard that had to play the PG position because he was too small to defend the taller SG.

What is this discussion about point guard play and Gerald Green? Avery would rather have Gaines play the point (like he did in one game this season) NOT because of Green's lack of ball-handling (although that plays a small part), but because Green is nowhere near a facilitator, and he would get absolutely burned back on defense against the majority of PG's in this league.

I'm not going to quote the rest, because I've already discussed most of it. No point in repeating it all.

The Nets have had 20 starting lineups this season. Gerald Green has been left out in every single one of them.

Fifteen different players have had starts, including:

MarShon Brooks
DeShawn Stevenson
Anthony Morrow
Damion James
Sundiata Gaines
Shawne Williams
Jordan Farmar
Gerald Wallace
Keith Bogans

Gerald Green? Still on the bench.

-----------

By the way, the mid-range game...I'm not even sure why we are so hyped about that. Green is shooting 46% on shots outside of the paint, non-three-pointers.

Danny Granger (just picked him because he's struggling due to injury and is the primary option in Indiana, defended by the better defenders) is shooting 46% from those spots in his last 12 games (since Green has played just 12). If you want to know just how bad Granger has it...he's shooting 39% overall this season.

Green's high FG% (it's at 51% right now) is coming from what he gets in the paint. Outside of it, he's at 46% FG and 35% 3PT.

GERALD GREEN
vs. CLE: 0-3
vs. NOR: 3-6
vs. ORL: 3-5
vs. TOR: 3-4
vs. MIL: 3-7
vs. HOU: 2-3
vs. CHA: 1-2
vs. LAC: 0-0
vs. MIA: 0-3
vs. CHA: 0-0
vs. BOS: 2-5
vs. DAL: 1-1
----------------
TOTAL: 18-39 (46%)

DANNY GRANGER
vs. NYK: 2-5
vs. NYK: 2-5
vs. PHI: 5-7
vs. POR: 2-3
vs. ORL: 5-7
vs. MIA: 2-6
vs. ATL: 2-7
vs. CHI: 1-2
vs. NOR: 2-6
vs. GSW: 2-3
vs. CHA: 0-3
vs. NOR: 1-3
----------------
TOTAL: 26-57 (46%)

Mid-range shots are meant to be easy. That's why defensive-minded coaches play zone nowadays...to keep guards on the perimeter.

Nobody cared to discuss all of the players who saw their shooting percentages fall as the season progressed. Shannon Brown was one (last year). Kyle Lowry is a huge one as well, this season. I can think of plenty more. Twelve games mean nothing to me.

I'm done with the conversation. I'm sure others will be as well, eventually. Green's 12 games haven't shown me much that I didn't expect from a guy playing on a bad team, coming off of their bench. It's really that elementary.




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