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Kobe can't shoot 50%


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#1 Imadogg

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 03:43 AM

I thought of this after reading this thread: [thread on M2 about Kobe not being able to shoot 50% while MJ did on different occasions]

I've always defended MJ against Kobe fanboys and said that he was a better player in just about every way, but after reading that thread I thought "hmm the different era excuse is brought up a lot, let me find out how different things actually are".

I decided to check these last 3 decades, 80s, 90s, and 00s - Guards with a minimum of 15ppg and 50% shooting. I wanted to see if MJ was the only guard shooting 50%, or is Kobe the only elite guard not shooting 50% or does the era possibly have something to do with it, or what's going on.

Here's what I found:

1979-1980 to 1988-1989 seasons:
31 players shot 50% or higher 64 times.

1989-1990 to 1998-1999 seasons:
18 players shot 50% or higher 31 times.

1999-2000 to 2008-2009 seasons:
5 players shot 50% or higher 11 times.


Correlation doesn't imply causation so I'm not gonna try to determine what was the factor in decreasing this shooting % for guards, but it seems like time/eras might have been one factor. One strange thing was that in the previous 2 decades, there were a few point guards as well as shooting guards who were shooting this well, while in this decade we've only had PGs.


Make of this what you will, I just wanted to show it since many always bring up how Kobe can't shoot 50% [remember, thread was made on M2, it applies less towards hardcore/biased Lakers fans], but we don't compare that to his peers. Maybe if MJ was still around and in his prime he could be an exception and still score at such at efficient rate, but he was right there with his peers for the most part as is Kobe now.

In general, shooting %s seem to be down from the past 2 decades as well.

Discuss

#2 Real Deal

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:03 AM

The league is based more on the superstar than it is on the team, so every decade, you'll get less and less superstars shooting 50% from the floor mainly because they are pressured much, much more, and they see more doubles.

Guys like Wilt and Kareem, they would open up tons of shot opportunities for their players just by all of the attention they would draw, especially with the lack of seven-footers in the NBA at that time (Russell wasn't even seven feet tall, and Wilt was being defended by power forwards and small forwards when he scored 100).

Today, your best players are guards and small forwards that play like guards (some point-forwards), so the attention is shifting towards the perimeter.

#3 .:{Air_Kobe}:.

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:11 AM

^ Real Deal Is absolutely right.. :) Kobe is having much more def. attention.. That's way he isn't able to make it 50% ot of the time :( But i think the def. in NBA now can't be compared with the def. in 80' and early 90' :)

#4 KobehastheMagic

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:13 AM

There's 2 major reasons

MJ's athleticism for his time was revolutionary. The only other guard in his time that was even close was Clyde. So Jordan was more skilled AND physically superior than everybody.

MJ's athleticism today, while still elite is matched by a quite a few players in the league. Kobe's athleticism is pretty average for the NBA, especially on the wing. So he doesn't have a physical advantage over everybody else like Jordan did.

The only thing that separates Jordan from Kobe is physical gifts...athleticism, hand size etc. Skill wise, Kobe matches and maybe even surpasses Jordan.

Second reason is because of the new defesnive rules. Everybody talks about the hand-check blah blah. But the removal of the illegal defense closes up lanes for superstars and allows teams to use zones and soft doubles to box superstars in without throwing the defense off balance. Whereas in Jordan's day, you either had to let him go 1-1, and he'd destroy you, or hard double him and his teamamtes would destroy you. But now you can play inbetween.

Go look at videos of Jordan and the ridiculous isolations and gaping lanes he had. Kobe couldn't even dream of that kind of space to operate.

Edited by KobehastheMagic, July 21, 2009 - 04:17 AM.


#5 Junayd

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:18 AM

The NBA went perimeter. Simple as that.

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#6 KobehastheMagic

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:23 AM

The NBA went perimeter. Simple as that.


Not quite although that's definitely part of it but the new defensive rules have a lot to dow ith it too.

#7 EchoZulu

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:27 AM

I agree with a lot of what's been said already, but I just wanted to add two more words to the mix..."Bad Boys." The late 80's early 90's Pistons changed the way the NBA was played...as teams started to focus more on the defensive end...the up and down, run and gun style of basketball started to subside.

If you look back at the stats, you could probably find up to 15 teams that shot over 50% for the season during the 80's. Now, you'll be lucky to find one team that can shoot anywhere near 50% as a whole.

#8 LakersGAFan

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 04:39 AM

Today, your best players are guards and small forwards that play like guards (some point-forwards), so the attention is shifting towards the perimeter.


Yet in the last 11 consecutive years the teams that win it all always need a Shaq, Sheed, Duncan, KG or Pau for their star Gaurd team mates to ever win it all. Big men win championships. Little guys just help carry the load to get there.

If we go back further and include Jordan and the Bulls 6 championships it brings that stat to 13 of the last 19 champions won it all by way of the big men (Hakeem x2).
And Jordan had Cartwright, Grant, Longley and Purdue. Not offensivly dominant big men, but big bodies that clogged up the lane on D and grabbed boards. And Rodman at 6'-7" grabbed more boards than anyone. Not a big man, but he played like one.

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#9 Real Deal

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 05:15 AM

Yet in the last 11 consecutive years the teams that win it all always need a Shaq, Sheed, Duncan, KG or Pau for their star Gaurd team mates to ever win it all. Big men win championships. Little guys just help carry the load to get there.

If we go back further and include Jordan and the Bulls 6 championships it brings that stat to 13 of the last 19 champions won it all by way of the big men (Hakeem x2).
And Jordan had Cartwright, Grant, Longley and Purdue. Not offensivly dominant big men, but big bodies that clogged up the lane on D and grabbed boards. And Rodman at 6'-7" grabbed more boards than anyone. Not a big man, but he played like one.

So Kobe helped Gasol carry the load, or is it the other way around?

Did Paul Pierce and Ray Allen help Garnett?

We know who the primary scoring options were on those teams. So do their opponents. A team would rather give Garnett the chance to score 50, than to give it to Pierce, because Pierce is more likely to do it.

Same with Gasol.

Same with Duncan over Tony Parker.

Same with Billups and Hamilton over the Wallaces.

Same with Rodman over Jordan.

List goes on...

#10 LakersGAFan

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 05:46 AM

So Kobe helped Gasol carry the load, or is it the other way around?

Did Paul Pierce and Ray Allen help Garnett?

We know who the primary scoring options were on those teams. So do their opponents. A team would rather give Garnett the chance to score 50, than to give it to Pierce, because Pierce is more likely to do it.

Same with Gasol.

Same with Duncan over Tony Parker.

Same with Billups and Hamilton over the Wallaces.

Same with Rodman over Jordan.

List goes on...


I understand your point. But LA had KB w/o a dominant big man (Kwame) for a long time and couldnt win anything regardless of how many points Kobe scored. If you dont have the big man. You dont win the big games regardless if you can have a gaurd/sf that can go for 50 per night. What was the Celtics record the year before KG was traded there? No Big = No Ring. I guess both points can be argued that you need balance, a rock in the middle and a go to player inside and outside to win it all. 1 w/o the other doesnt bring home the trophy. Like KG in Minnesota for so long.

Edited by LakersGAFan, July 21, 2009 - 05:48 AM.

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#11 Real Deal

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 07:35 AM

I understand your point. But LA had KB w/o a dominant big man (Kwame) for a long time and couldnt win anything regardless of how many points Kobe scored. If you dont have the big man. You dont win the big games regardless if you can have a gaurd/sf that can go for 50 per night. What was the Celtics record the year before KG was traded there? No Big = No Ring. I guess both points can be argued that you need balance, a rock in the middle and a go to player inside and outside to win it all. 1 w/o the other doesnt bring home the trophy. Like KG in Minnesota for so long.

Yeah, but that's not what I'm arguing.

Most teams need a defensive anchor, or a big that can compliment their offensive juggernaut.

Well, Kobe is the primary option. He will get the most attention. Same goes for Pierce, Billups when he was in Detroit, Melo in Denver, LeBron in Cleveland, Parker in San Antonio, Jordan in Chicago, Wade in Miami (with Shaq), and there are too many other examples.

And when those players are the primary options, as superstars of this league, you can only bet that they will see more defensive pressure.

Michael Jordan was selfish. More than Bryant, in fact, who was also very selfish for a few seasons after the third championship. You will continue to find more selfish superstar guards and small forwards in this league, and the biggest reason for that is because they are simply the guys that can score 60 in a game these days, and win them off of 25-point fourth quarters.

The league has changed, but defensive-minded teams know how to target those superstars, just to force other teammates into beating them. It has worked, for the most part.

#12 5thDroog

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 07:44 AM

There's 2 major reasons

MJ's athleticism for his time was revolutionary. The only other guard in his time that was even close was Clyde. So Jordan was more skilled AND physically superior than everybody.

MJ's athleticism today, while still elite is matched by a quite a few players in the league. Kobe's athleticism is pretty average for the NBA, especially on the wing. So he doesn't have a physical advantage over everybody else like Jordan did.

The only thing that separates Jordan from Kobe is physical gifts...athleticism, hand size etc. Skill wise, Kobe matches and maybe even surpasses Jordan.

Second reason is because of the new defesnive rules. Everybody talks about the hand-check blah blah. But the removal of the illegal defense closes up lanes for superstars and allows teams to use zones and soft doubles to box superstars in without throwing the defense off balance. Whereas in Jordan's day, you either had to let him go 1-1, and he'd destroy you, or hard double him and his teamamtes would destroy you. But now you can play inbetween.

Go look at videos of Jordan and the ridiculous isolations and gaping lanes he had. Kobe couldn't even dream of that kind of space to operate.



i totally agree with this. in Jordan's era, NBA promoted one on one plays. In Kobe's era, the zone defense being allowed, makes it much harder to score, especially in ISO. with clogged lanes and easier rotations, it's ridiculous to think that Kobe was able to score 81 points.

to add things up, Kobe has better range than MJ.

#13 har8124kb

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 07:47 AM

definitely kobe's era much competitive than mj, not taking from air jordan himself but kobe has a lot of similar wingman opposition like tmac, vinsanity, melo or lebron. jordan wuz busy taking down the legends lke magic or bird or denying karl malone or ewing their chance for glory :dance1:

#14 nameant

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 07:48 AM

Kobe could, he is just more prone to taking dumb shots. MJ didn't take as many 3's either. Those are just things Kobe does to hurt his FG%. Another factor is zone defense wasn't legal during MJ's time.

#15 MDI

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 07:52 AM

points per shot taken is a better indicator of scoring efficiency

Kobe and Jordan are right are right there in that statistic

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Props to sidthekid871


#16 KobeDynasty

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 07:54 AM


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#17 steven v

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 08:46 AM

I understand your reasons for wanting to do this, but your efforts are futile for a lot of reasons.

Go here http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

Look up guards, (or any player) and see the breakdown of their regular season shooting spots. You'll discover that some players actually shot jump shots to get their points and other players rely on dunks and layups. Dunk and layups are not an actual "jump shot" but are still factored into a player shooting percentage.

The numbers end up becoming very skewed because of this.
The Lakers FO knows more than you. Sorry.

#18 Bruin26

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 10:02 AM

Shooting has gone down in the league since the 80's. I am sure part of it is kids not spending four years in college as much as they used to. But I am sure there are many reasons. When Riley was coaching the Knicks and scoring in the league was down everyone said it was because the league focused so much on the hard defense played like the Knicks did, but the another reason is shotting was horrible during that period. Sure people can focus on the superstars and what they shoot, but the fact is back in the 80's more of the players in general I think shot better as whole. Brick fests make for some ugly basketball. Especially when the game became a big one on one fest during Jordan;s and after his time.

I don't care about the Jordan/Kobe comparisons, because they are so old and useless anyway. While Kobe's shootiong percentage may be worse part of that is because even earlier in his career he shot more from outside then Jordan did. It took longer for Jordan to become a better outside shooter. He was good when he was winnign those chapionships, but those 7 or so years before he was always going to the basket much more except when he got that hot streak the best players seem to often get. Even Kobe detractors seem to agree his outside shooting over his career was better than Jordan's despite what shooting percentages show.

#19 Windu

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 10:03 AM

Kobe is a better outside shooter but Jordan was a better defender.

Pau Gasol is GONE


#20 rnd24

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Posted July 21, 2009 - 10:40 AM

idc what anybody says...imo kobe is the G.O.A.T
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