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Lakers Defense


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#1 Scott P

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 01:45 PM

The following quote about defensive consistency could be out of the mouth of GMCD or Real Deal, but is in fact from Jim Cleamons.

"Anyone who watches film and is a student of the game would see that we don't play with the same intensity day in and day out, game in and game out. If you are going to be a championship caliber team, your defense is the one area that doesn't waver. We aren't good enough on a game by game basis to do what we need to do to say that we are going to be accountable in the end. Then, our rotations are not always what I like to call 'on point.' Sometimes, they are nonexistent, sometimes they are a little bit slow. If you are a good defensive team, then you play better on the defensive end then you do on the offensive end, because that (defense) is where you are really linked together; (in that case) the team has a feeling of when they have to help and a sense and a presence of how they need to get there so that when the ball moves and flows your defense is not always reacting. You are kind of ahead or you arrive right on the catch so the offense knows that you are there and there are no gaps in your rotations."

#2 kobynum

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 05:18 PM

heard a lot of that b4 the three peat years, but I agree and i dont know the problem other than maybe our personell(without Bynum) isnt physically built to defend
Again - this team, as currently constructed won't make it out of the second round of the playoffs, let alone the West or win the Finals.---fido on 2011 Lakers

#3 Grandpa Herman

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 05:25 PM

Defense is all about passion. If you play it lazily then you're gonna get scored on. If you play it with effort then there's no reason why you can't be a good defensive team.
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#4 Real Deal

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 05:37 PM

Fisher is just too slow to defend the faster and/or younger guards. Farmar doesn't have the lateral quickness to do it. Walton plays no defense at all. Vujacic is foul-prone and reminds me of a white, skinny, long-haired guard version of Danny Fortson. Gasol's defense shows up on players such as Garnett, who don't weigh a great deal and love to take jumpers, but his length is no match for those named Shaq, Yao, Dwight, or most every other NBA big man that actually plays like a big man.

As long as Bryant and Ariza have to roam, there will be open shooters. It's the team's fault that those two guys have to make up for inadequate defensive players.

We can't go play "modified Lakers zone defense" every night and expect to win games. Why do we beat the great teams? Because we know who to defend. But, when we play teams like Charlotte, the Pacers or the Bulls, we have trouble because we're not quite sure who to stick it to on defense.

The fact is, offensive involvement doesn't create defense. Otherwise, Nash would be a great defender, and so would Iverson, and even Carmelo. Effort doesn't create defense, or guys like Sasha and Caron Butler would be good, defensively. Defensive players are taught through practice, conditioning, and watching clips to develop your defensive awareness and overall basketball IQ.

The Lakers have two solid defenders today, and a good defensive player on the shelf in Bynum. The rest are liabilities, and that's why we struggle to even snag leads with our starters in, let alone maintain leads when our bench steps onto the floor.

#5 kobynum

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 05:44 PM

I just feel when Drew is there, Pau is A PF, Odom isnt being beat up by bigger players and every thing is right in the world.
But we have better D than last year, and we can win the whole thing
Again - this team, as currently constructed won't make it out of the second round of the playoffs, let alone the West or win the Finals.---fido on 2011 Lakers

#6 Real Deal

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 05:49 PM

I just feel when Drew is there, Pau is A PF, Odom isnt being beat up by bigger players and every thing is right in the world.
But we have better D than last year, and we can win the whole thing

Well, for what it's worth, we allowed 101.3 PPG last season, and are allowing 100.4 PPG this season. Not that big of a difference.

#7 kobynum

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Posted March 26, 2009 - 06:02 PM

Well, for what it's worth, we allowed 101.3 PPG last season, and are allowing 100.4 PPG this season. Not that big of a difference.

not that big, but we have improved, if you can add that number to the ppg added since last year, we should be improved pretty significantly
Again - this team, as currently constructed won't make it out of the second round of the playoffs, let alone the West or win the Finals.---fido on 2011 Lakers

#8 GCMD

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Posted March 27, 2009 - 01:47 AM

It's all about the team working as one unit. On offense, it's alot easier because Kobe takes on so much of the defensive attention that other guys are essentially "plug and play".

You put in MBenga or Powell and tell them to hit the 15ft mid-range shot and rebound if Kobe misses.
You put Farmar, Fisher or Sasha in and tell them to hit the open 3 when Kobe drives and kicks.
You put in Ariza and say be the ballhawk while Kobe roams and make hustle plays.

Pau and Luke are our only other reliable "hubs". Bynum and Pau are our post presences. LO is our rebounder.

They fit the role.


What I haven't seen is the entire team play consistent defense. Most of them are so comfortable taking the back seat to Kobe that they don't key in on defense. They are so afraid of individual accountability that they have isolated their "responsibility" defensively to what they can get chewed out about, not what prevents the score.

This team has to stop pointing fingers on defense and start sharing the goal of getting stops consistently. It's never one person on defense. It's the team. If they can't get that thru their heads, they will NEVER hold teams under par consistently, which is what good defensive teams do.

7511301026_4a46afba50.jpg

 

 

Calling it right now:

Andrew Wiggins will be better than LeBron James.


#9 Rene

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 12:22 AM

Well, for what it's worth, we allowed 101.3 PPG last season, and are allowing 100.4 PPG this season. Not that big of a difference.

I personally don't think PPG allowed is a good measuring stick for defense. There are conflicts with it, more notably, the pace of one team when you compare the pace of another. Take the Spurs, for example, they play a slow tempo offense/pace, and are definitely a great defensive team, lets pretend they allow 92 PPG a game, however, the Lakers allow 100 PPG, but play a faster style of basketball, more shots are taken in the game, which in turn leads to more points put on the scoreboard. I think the best way of measuring a teams defense is by looking at their Defensive Rating and/or Efficiency. You can find those right here.

The Lakers are 6th in their defensive rating, yet if you strictly based it off of PPG allowed, the Lakers are ranked 16th in that category, which leads to misconceptions about the team's defense.

Edited by Rene, March 28, 2009 - 11:36 AM.


#10 fanboyslim

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 03:44 AM

It's never one person on defense. It's the team.

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#11 Real Deal

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 11:51 AM

I personally don't think PPG allowed is a good measuring stick for defense. There are conflicts with it, more notably, the pace of one team when you compare the pace of another. Take the Spurs, for example, they play a slow tempo offense/pace, and are definitely a great defensive team, lets pretend they allow 92 PPG a game, however, the Lakers allow 100 PPG, but play a faster style of basketball, more shots are taken in the game, which in turn leads to more points put on the scoreboard. I think the best way of measuring a teams defense is by looking at their Defensive Rating and/or Efficiency. You can find those right here.

The Lakers are 6th in their defensive rating, yet if you strictly based it off of PPG allowed, the Lakers are ranked 16th in that category, which leads to misconceptions about the team's defense.

So, watching the Lakers, you're ready to believe that they are the 6th best team, defensively, in the NBA?

#12 popo

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 11:55 AM

Vujacic is foul-prone and reminds me of a white, skinny, long-haired guard version of Danny Fortson.


:lol: , The fouling machine.
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#13 Rene

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 12:01 PM

So, watching the Lakers, you're ready to believe that they are the 6th best team, defensively, in the NBA?

Well, there are some areas the Lakers are lackluster on the defensive end, and the stat sheet does not tell all, that was the point I was trying to get across. I do believe the Lakers are a top 8 defensive team, criticize me for it, they're not that bad. What I don't believe, is that the Lakers are the 15th best team, which is what PPG allowed has them ranked in.

Do you believe the Lakers are the 15th best defensive team? Remember, that's almost half the NBA ahead of the Lakers in that regard.

Also, it's not like the ranking is really misleading when you take the into consideration that it measures the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions. 100 possessions. Not PER game, which is a bit misleading when you consider that teams play different paces and styles of basketball. If a game is played at a fast pace, it leads to shots taken earlier in the shot clock, which leads to more shots in a game, which leads to more shots made, which in turn would lead to more points put on the scoreboard. The Lakers are a solid defensive team, believe it or not.

Edited by Rene, March 28, 2009 - 12:07 PM.


#14 Real Deal

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 12:10 PM

Well, there are some areas the Lakers are lackluster on the defensive end, and the stat sheet does not tell all, that was the point I was trying to get across. I do believe the Lakers are a top 8 defensive team, [/b]criticize me for it, they're not that bad. What I don't believe, is that the Lakers are the 15th best team, which is what PPG allowed has them ranked in.

Do you believe the Lakers are the 15th best defensive team? Remember, that's almost half the NBA ahead of the Lakers in that regard.

Also, it's not like the ranking is really misleading when you take the into consideration that it measures the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions. 100 possessions. Not PER game, which is a bit misleading when you consider that teams play different paces and styles of basketball. If a game is played at a fast pace, it leads to shots taken earlier in the shot clock, which leads to more shots in a game, which leads to more shots made, which in turn would lead to more points put on the scoreboard. The Lakers are a solid defensive team, believe it or not.

Faster paced games means other teams tire easily, and their shots stop falling, so lower field goal percentages...right? I mean, I can play that same tune in my argument, also.

When I see us lose 20-point leads, or watch us give up 30-35 points in two of four quarters, or observe our team letting another drain three consecutive threes and shoot 70% for a couple of quarters, then I don't believe we are a top 10 team, defensively.

We are an excellent offensive team. However, we're an average defensive team that plays good defense in spurts. That won't do us any good.

#15 kobynum

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 12:40 PM

gotta disagree, name teams that you feel play at our pace, and play better defensively than us. I mean the zthe two top teams n the East play better defense, but I see flaws in EVERYBODY'S defense, especially this year. San An is weaker, Boston is weaker, Cavs are stronger, but we dominated our season series with them , much like the C's did us last season. Just to keep it real, if we stay healthy, even without Bynum, we will win the title.

fatigue could also hurt us, it seems like our guards have hit a wall, and Pau has played a lot of ball in the past two years.
Again - this team, as currently constructed won't make it out of the second round of the playoffs, let alone the West or win the Finals.---fido on 2011 Lakers

#16 Real Deal

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 01:00 PM

gotta disagree, name teams that you feel play at our pace, and play better defensively than us. I mean the zthe two top teams n the East play better defense, but I see flaws in EVERYBODY'S defense, especially this year. San An is weaker, Boston is weaker, Cavs are stronger, but we dominated our season series with them , much like the C's did us last season. Just to keep it real, if we stay healthy, even without Bynum, we will win the title.

fatigue could also hurt us, it seems like our guards have hit a wall, and Pau has played a lot of ball in the past two years.

The teams you named (Boston, Spurs and Cavs) all play better defense than we do.

We won a season series? Good stuff. The Wizards also toppled the Celtics in a season series last year, the only team to do so. It's too bad Washington was beaten in the first round by Cleveland, or else, I guess, they'd be the defending champs.

#17 Rene

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 07:15 PM

Faster paced games means other teams tire easily, and their shots stop falling, so lower field goal percentages...right? I mean, I can play that same tune in my argument, also.

When I see us lose 20-point leads, or watch us give up 30-35 points in two of four quarters, or observe our team letting another drain three consecutive threes and shoot 70% for a couple of quarters, then I don't believe we are a top 10 team, defensively.

We are an excellent offensive team. However, we're an average defensive team that plays good defense in spurts. That won't do us any good.

I disagree, whether the Lakers play defense in spurts or not, you cannot deny that they are an efficient defensive team. The Lakers allow 102.2 points PER 100 possessions, compare that to the Boston Celtics' 98.8 points PER 100 possessions, that is a 3.4 point differential. Wouldn't you agree with me that the Lakers' defense has improved considerably? I mean, if you're only allowing 3.4 points more PER 100 possessions than the so-called “best defensive team in the NBA,” that is a pretty impressive stat :) . If fatigue is such a factor you make it to be why is a 32-year-old Ray Allen and a 31-year-old Paul Pierce playing 42+ MPG during a stretch not seemed to have tired them out?

The teams you named (Boston, Spurs and Cavs) all play better defense than we do.

We won a season series? Good stuff. The Wizards also toppled the Celtics in a season series last year, the only team to do so. It's too bad Washington was beaten in the first round by Cleveland, or else, I guess, they'd be the defending champs.

You know, it's not all about defense in the postseason, the Lakers lost because they had ZERO defense, and the Boston frontcourt imposed their will on Gasol and Odom. Don't forget the foul trouble that plagued Odom and Radman early in the series, and the Celtics straight up put the clamps on Kobe, which they've been doing consistently since 08. The difference now? The Lakers are a solid defensive team, and they've improved. You could make some arguments the Celtics have weakened, which I would agree with. KG has been the first to show signs of age, Doc Rivers pledged to play KG in 7-8 minute stretches, and that much only. Do you know why? Because KG doesn't maintain the same energy throughout the whole game, and much of that is due to his age.

Also, I don't know how you're comparing the Wizards to the Lakers, in terms of defeating the Celtics. I for one believe regular season games do give us glimpses of how they play in the postseason, if it helps in any way — the Boston Celtics swept the Lakers last season in the season series, and now it's the opposite this season.


#18 Mr. Laker

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 07:39 PM

I think for us PPG allowed is a horrible stat. We play at a higher pace specially with the 2nd unit, faster pace= more shots for you and your opponents you cant judge us based on PPG allowed.

#19 Rene

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 07:40 PM

I think for us PPG allowed is a horrible stat. We play at a higher pace specially with the 2nd unit, faster pace= more shots for you and your opponents you cant judge us based on PPG allowed.

My thoughts exactly.

Edited by Rene, March 28, 2009 - 07:46 PM.


#20 Junayd

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Posted March 28, 2009 - 07:46 PM

The problem with this team is that they're not motivated to play defense..and they blow leads because the bench doesn't have the mentality to stomp a team out and finish the job. If they get a killer instinct and some heart, we'll be fine.

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